[Deck] Natural Order RUG

[lorddotm]

Like I said, I bummed the list off of my friend Bryan (keys). The board definitely needed some work. I did like the Jitte, but I don't know if they are good enough. Trygon was in there for SFM decks I think... I don't really know. If I play the deck again, it will be with a very different sideboard. The one I used was pretty bad. I was actually boarding out the NO package in most match ups, except for the No Force match up, it just didn't do enough.

[RogueMTG]

Did you really feel like you didn't want it or rather like you didn't need it? At one point I also thought that I almost never needed it, but when I had it, I almost always won. The plan of winning with lots of Tarmogoyfs is mostly good against decks without big creatures but with a lot of small ones, i.e. Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. It might also be too slow against storm combo, but I'm not sure about that. Against basically every other deck in the format Natural Order is amazing.

I mean, whenever I cast it, I almost always got a scoop, but I was always -probably- going to win anyway. (eg: My army of Goyfs and hand of counter magic is suddenly backed up by this here 10/10, woo.) So I guess it's more of a "not needing it."

I haven't played against everything obviously, so it was more of a first impression while piloting the deck.

[jin]

It's not overly important but a strong and versatile card. Plus the deck is lacking space for more. I might actually go up to three, but I don't know what to cut from my current list anymore. I even considered cutting a Tarmogoyf or two but I don't want to focus too much on the Natural Order plan. Being able to execute a somewhat normal Next Level Thresh game is actually quite important against most aggro decks (but Fire // Ice is not bad against these decks either).

What about Ponder? It seems like a flex slot in a lot of decks. Is it important to this one?

[catmint]

I am a fan of Ponder (playing 2). It shines in combodecks to find the right cards and is also helpful in finding hate piecies. I usually don't side them out if possible.

How about replacing 1 noble hierach with a birds of paradise?
With all the red in MD and especially SB, I find it is the most effective way of stopping red-blast, lavamancer,... by wasting our volcanic island.

[Mark Sun]

How about replacing 1 noble hierach with a birds of paradise?
With all the red in MD and especially SB, I find it is the most effective way of stopping red-blast, lavamancer,... by wasting our volcanic island.

The idea is definitely feasible. Also, if you're finding mana denial on red sources to be an issue, a basic Mountain might help a little. I'm very interested in the deck, actually, and my MTG hiatus ends this weekend at SCG Cincinnati.

Has anyone found the need for Beast Within?

[jin]

I am a fan of Ponder (playing 2). It shines in combodecks to find the right cards and is also helpful in finding hate piecies. I usually don't side them out if possible.

How about replacing 1 noble hierach with a birds of paradise?
With all the red in MD and especially SB, I find it is the most effective way of stopping red-blast, lavamancer,... by wasting our volcanic island.

interesting.. more useful than goyf?

The idea is definitely feasible. Also, if you're finding mana denial on red sources to be an issue, a basic Mountain might help a little. I'm very interested in the deck, actually, and my MTG hiatus ends this weekend at SCG Cincinnati.

Has anyone found the need for Beast Within?

I think wipeaway is just better

[Kuma]

Has anyone found the need for Beast Within?

Meh, I haven't wanted it. I don't think it's better than existing options and I'm not sure where to fit it in the deck.

I'm intrigued by adding a Birds of Paradise. I think that warrants some testing.

Unfortunately, I 0-2 dropped one of my 15-man locals this week losing an insanely close match to Tezzeret Affinity round one and losing to Maverick round two. To those who are familiar with Maverick or the Maverick matchup, how do you sideboard for it with NO RUG? More specifically, do you keep Force of Will in or not? It seems like there's a lot of cards you really want to counter like Aven Mindcensor (he blew me out game two by flashing one in in response to Natural Order), Choke, and Scryb Ranger (God, that's the most annoying creature in Legacy). I also feel like you almost need a Natural Order to win against Maverick.

I decided to try cutting Daze for Fire // Ice and Grim Lavamancer. I was glad I did against Affinity, as Fire // Ice and Grim Lavamancer kept me in the game whereas Daze would have been awful. It was a little more up in the air against Maverick.

Here's what I ran:

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
1 Island

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Brushwagg]

I'm glad this got written up. I picked this deck up before this thread opened and the hardest part I was having was the SBing. I want to keep in so much stuff. The tips should help out alot.

@Fire/Ice: I started with a list from the GP and changed out the Changed Lightning for them and I really like it. The 2 for 1 is great on Fire and Ice can cycle if needed.

@Clique:I'm still not a huge fan of it. I run 2 with a Trigon. But my meta is filled with SFM decks so having Trigon in the MD is good.

@Ancient Grudge: Again I see lists not running it. I find it really good. Again 2 for 1. Is this more a meta choice?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Mindscensor Maverick can be hard to combat, as you will have to take care of MoR to keep burn useable, KotR because he just beats face fast enough to race Progenitus and Teeg/Mindscensor.

Make sure to Vendilion before NO, as this mostly is enough to safely resolve NO (and actually find Prog) and win. Otherwise you have no choice other than keeping 1 red open to Bolt / Grim the Scensor or to have FoW backup.

Submerge is huge in the board, maybe a Metachoice over the 4th Blast and/or Trygons in the board. It's definately winnable, but Maverick tends to get the "nut hand" (at least it looks like it to most other decks) more often then we do.

Our Maindecks are nearly the same. I rotate with Daze and Grim in the 2 slots as a meta call and got 1 Scanvenging Ooze over goyf, who wins the Maverick MU alone if untouched.

I do keep the FoW's because our role ain't the aggro route in this MU and you want to counter a protected SFM into Batterskull as well as Mindscensor in response to NO and the T2 KotR.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Mindscensor Maverick can be hard to combat, as you will have to take care of MoR to keep burn useable, KotR because he just beats face fast enough to race Progenitus and Teeg/Mindscensor.

Make sure to Vendilion before NO, as this mostly is enough to safely resolve NO (and actually find Prog) and win. Otherwise you have no choice other than keeping 1 red open to Bolt / Grim the Scensor or to have FoW backup.

Submerge is huge in the board, maybe a Metachoice over the 4th Blast and/or Trygons in the board. It's definately winnable, but Maverick tends to get the "nut hand" (at least it looks like it to most other decks) more often then we do.

Our Maindecks are nearly the same. I rotate with Daze and Grim in the 2 slots as a meta call and got 1 Scanvenging Ooze over goyf, who wins the Maverick MU alone if untouched.

I do keep the FoW's because our role ain't the aggro route in this MU and you want to counter a protected SFM into Batterskull as well as Mindscensor in response to NO and the T2 KotR.

Aven Mindcensor is actually not that hard to deal with in my experience since you can usually see it coming miles ahead. It's still one of their best weapons against us though. The only cards you really care about in this matchup are Aven Mindcensor, Mirran Crusader, Mother Of Runes because it protects those guys and sometimes Knight Of The Reliquary and Stoneforge Mystic. The good thing for you is that they can't do anything about your Natural Orders except for trying to race it or flashing in Aven Mindcensor when you can't deal with it. Mirran Crusader still dies to Fire // Ice, Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer and Fire // Ice can also tap down Knight Of The Reliquary.
As you already said yourself, Submerge is huge here. What I don't see is how you need that many Red Elemental Blasts. It's not as strong against blue decks as it used to be because now they have more than just blue spells you want to deal with. I like some Spell Pierces to counter their Wrath Of Gods and other removal. Spell Pierce still deals with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, their countermagic and important Brainstorms.
Further, keeping in Force Of Will is an idea to help you cast Natural Order earlier and more reliably through Aven Mindcensor while also being able to counter the occasional Wing Shards and prevent them from racing you. How do you board against Maverick?
And how do you like the Scavenging Ooze? This is something I though about before and I actually had it in my sideboard but in my experience it was usually too slow.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Ooze is amazing, nealry pick him up 3/4 times over Goof. Red Blast is in there because im still constructing and testing, but it's the weakest spot ;) Probably switching for Grims, gotta rework the whole SB anyways.

[keys]

Ooze is stellar in a lot of matchups, but is extremely mana intensive. From my experience, if you don't have acceleration he can be awfully slow and vulnerable. I don't think he is competing with Goyf for a maindeck slot, but I would recommend him as a sideboard Zenith target at least. Ooze improves the dredge and Cephalid/4 Horseman matchups with a small SB space commitment.

[lorddotm]

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

3 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

SB
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Trygon Predator
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

This is the list I have been testing. Thus far, it has been sick.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

It's not overly important but a strong and versatile card. Plus the deck is lacking space for more. I might actually go up to three, but I don't know what to cut from my current list anymore. I even considered cutting a Tarmogoyf or two but I don't want to focus too much on the Natural Order plan. Being able to execute a somewhat normal Next Level Thresh game is actually quite important against most aggro decks (but Fire // Ice is not bad against these decks either).

And your right, I should have mentioned the vigilance trick, probably in the last section. I'm going to write something about the game I drew on Sunday, as the board state was really interesting and when I tanked, at least five people told me there was no way I could win. In fact, there was no way I could lose.




Interesting report. Also nice to see that you picked up this deck, we should play a few games again (testing against Hive Mind?). Anyway, how did you like Umezawa's Jitte in your sideboard? In my experience it was often not strong enough as this deck doesn't have too many creatures. Also, how did you like Trygon Predator? What are you looking to beat with it, and isn't it too slow for that role? If it's for Affinity, I know for sure that Energy Flux just beats them, but if Trygon Predator is better, tell me.




I'm running Surgical Extraction as well, but I'm not sure if it's necessary. I don't face graveyard based decks or combo decks very often. It has worked quite well so far though, and it won me some games other pieces of graveyard hate wouldn't have won. Having something to exile your opponent's entire graveyard is still quite useful, so I think I'll stick to Relic Of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt for the third slot.


About the interesting gamestate that came up on Sunday:

It was my opponents turn. He had three lands, a Germ token with Batterskull and a Stoneforge Mystic. My board was just two lands plus a Dryad Arbor. Hed had two cards in hand, I had Natural Order, Natural Order, Fire // Ice, Lightning Bolt. He was at 21, I was at 15. He attacked with both of his creatures and time was called in his turn. He was quite sure he would win. I took five, he went to 25. I drew a land for my turn and cast Natural Order, it resolved. I got Progenitus and he said the game was a draw.

What would you do in that situation?

I thought the scenario merited a response. It depends a lot on what my next draw step is. I'd pass and hope he draws semi-blanks for the next two turns (nothing that can add a ton of pressure, no Countermagic/Clique), though, that's for sure.

On my next turn I see these choices (assuming double-red in play, otherwise you lose every double-burn scenario to needing to draw a red-source in addition):

Draw any non-arbor land (any green land depending on available mana). Attack with Progenitus, Natural Order again for Vigilance, let him do whatever, swing again next turn and burn him out for exactsies. Active counter turns things back into a draw if not accompanied by another rip.

Any burn. Attack with Progenitus, Ice the Germ, Attack again and burn him out.

GSZ. Two options again. A)Zenith out a Goyf, attack with Progenitus. If he attacks back, Goyf kills the Germ and the opponent goes to 19. If he attacks with both SFM and Germ, you're fine. Attack with Goyf and Progenitus, burn him out. If you expect him to keep SFM back to block like he should, the game is a draw. Instead, GSZ for Arbor, attack with Progenitus. If he attacks back, block the 'skull and Fire your token and him (24). Now a burn-spell, Hierarch, or another Zenith do enough off the top.

Goyf. Play it, hope he attacks with both his guys or you draw a second burnspell next turn (Bolt him eot this turn with the mana not used for Goyf to make sure that works).

Hierarch. cast Hierarch, swing with Prog. Ice the Germ, Swing with Prog, Bolt.

Cantrip. This is fine hitting either a Fetch or a burn spell. Follow either the scenario for drawing burn or the one for GSZ, treating the Fetch + cantrip as Zenith for 1.

Blank on either draw step or cantrip. Attack with Progenitus, Ice the Germ, hope Ice or your next draw step will show you more burn.

I think these are all the options. Essentially you can't win if you draw FoW/Clique here and if the opponent has anything after you draw your out, it turns the game back into a draw or puts you back onto the "draw burn" plan.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

SB
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Trygon Predator
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

This is the list I have been testing. Thus far, it has been sick.

Pretty much the same list i am running at the moment, just haven't made the change of -1 FoW for +1 GSZ even though it seems really reasonable and well thought out. -1 Goof Md for 1 Ooze maindeck as we have a lot of strong Dredge players around and the whole metagame is infested with KotR, where Ooze helps a lot as well.

How do you do against StoneBlade decks with your SB? Are those 2 Grudges enough? And i find myself often having troubles in chosing what to side out, any suggestions?

[lorddotm]

Pretty much the same list i am running at the moment, just haven't made the change of -1 FoW for +1 GSZ even though it seems really reasonable and well thought out. -1 Goof Md for 1 Ooze maindeck as we have a lot of strong Dredge players around and the whole metagame is infested with KotR, where Ooze helps a lot as well.

How do you do against StoneBlade decks with your SB? Are those 2 Grudges enough? And i find myself often having troubles in chosing what to side out, any suggestions?

Stoneblade is a retardedly easy match up. I go -2 Fire/Ice (Play) or -2 Daze (if you are on the Draw) -2 MM -1 Goyf +1 Ancient Grudge +3 Blast +1 Trygon. Just resolve a Natural Order and they will lose fast. Bolt and Cliques should be saved to break up their SFM package.

The only thing to be worried about is that some lists play a Wrath or two, you can usually just Clique it away, or Daze it. Force+Blasts also help.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

That's about the point. People here start playing 2-3 Wrath main and the rest in the board to fight Maverick & co. Maybe i'll go up to 4 Cliques again.

[lorddotm]

That's about the point. People here start playing 2-3 Wrath main and the rest in the board to fight Maverick & co. Maybe i'll go up to 4 Cliques again.

In that case take out a Ponder for another Force, and leave in the Dazes.

[catmint]

Scanvenging Ooze is just sick. I play now 3 surgical extraction and the ooze as GY hate in the SB.
I don't like to loose to loam or dredge (which is common in my meta) and you will probably see more with the nice manaless dredge list doing well vs. UW and many other decks. The 3 extraction can also be used versus hive minds intution or other combo decks where bolt is useless.

[CaBaaL]

the deck is sick i just won a mox emerald with no rug, I ripped apart my meta. I haven't felt like this since survival era.