Page 3 of 24 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 470

Thread: [Deck] Natural Order RUG

  1. #41
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    I ended up in 28th place at SCG Cincinnati going 6-3. I can provide more details for any of these matches if people are interested, but I'm not writing a full report.

    Round 1: Merfolk, Win 2-0

    Round 2: Ugr Stiflenought, Win 2-0

    Round 3: Uw Stoneblade, Lose 1-2

    Round 4: Ubr Show and Tell/Hive Mind, Win 2-1

    Round 5: Enchantress, Lose 1-2

    Round 6: BUG Deedstill, Win 2-0

    Round 7: Bw Stoneblade, Win 2-1

    Round 8: Reanimator, Win 2-0

    Round 9: NO RUG, Lose 1-2

    Here's the list I ran:

    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Forest
    1 Island

    1 Dryad Arbor

    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Vendilion Clique
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Green Sun's Zenith

    4 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus

    4 Force of Will
    2 Daze
    4 Mental Misstep

    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fire // Ice

    4 Brainstorm

    Sideboard:
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Mountain
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Trygon Predator
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Thrun, the Last Troll

    I think I'm going to cut a Noble Hierarch for a Birds of Paradise. There were a couple of times where I wanted to be able to Zenith for red mana and couldn't. The exalted was largely a non-factor.

    I didn't miss Ponder. Why are we still running that card?

    Fire // Ice was amazing, winning me several games on its own. Versus Ugr Stiflenought game one, I used it to tap down a Tarmogoyf with a Basilisk Collar so I could kill him with Progenitus (I was at 3 life). Game two I had both Fire // Ices. The first one met a Force of Will when I tried to kill his Jace, the Mind Sculptor with it. The second one killed his Jace.

    Daze was also fantastic, especially versus Hive Mind and Bw Stoneblade. I'd like to fit in a third copy somehow.

    I felt really unprepared for Enchantress. When I cast Natural Order against him, I joked saying I would get Terastodon and he threw up in his mouth a little. I had next to nothing to board in for him, and I'd really like to have a Terastodon to find in the combo matchups and against tribal aggro.

    Ancient Grudge felt really unnecessary. I never needed to kill a Batterskull; it was enough to burn or Daze the Stoneforge Mystic. The Bw Stoneblade player was smart and got Sword of Fire and Ice against me which won him a game, but we need to think long and hard about Ancient Grudge's purpose.

    I never cast a Jace in the tournament. I never felt like I needed him either. It was pretty easy to handle opposing Jaces between all the burn and red blasts. I need more testing before I cut him, but I'm not sure he's essential or even helpful in most matches. People have said that he's a good side in for decks that can stop your Natural Order plan, but most of those cards also stop Jace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  2. #42
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    You don't need to side out NO/Prog to add Jace.

    Versus midrange or versus longer "grinding" games Jace is good. I also like Jace versus very removal heavy decks like BW.

    In general where I think a Goyf cannot go all the way for the win, I consider replacing 1 goyf with 1 Jace.
    On the draw Jace can replace daze or if certain matchups MM, Lightning bolt, FoW.
    In games where Progenitus can be handled by different type of control decks with cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Wrath effects, sacrifice effects, I like the Jace/Goyf/counter plan.

    Versus Renimator Jace is also very helpful!

    I would not run less than 2 Ponder. It is important to develop the mana and to make sure we get the cards we need. Since there is no card advantage engine MD it is even more important. There are also many examples where you have a 1-2 land hand (1 land might be a dryad arbor) with Ponder and MM in hand that you are happy to keep because of the Ponder.

  3. #43
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    I would not run less than 2 Ponder. It is important to develop the mana and to make sure we get the cards we need. Since there is no card advantage engine MD it is even more important. There are also many examples where you have a 1-2 land hand (1 land might be a dryad arbor) with Ponder and MM in hand that you are happy to keep because of the Ponder.
    No, no, no, no, no.

    Ponder is not a magic hand fixer. You do not keep one land hands because they have a Ponder. Let's suppose you keep a one land hand that also has a Ponder. You Ponder turn one and see Tropical Island plus two non-land cards. What do you do? Do you keep your top three, knowing that you're going to miss at least one land drop? Do you shuffle and hope that you'll get more than one land in three random cards?

    Ponder is a crutch for players who hate to mulligan. You're better off running more copies of things that you want to find with Ponder and learning how to mulligan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  4. #44
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Moscow, Russia
    Posts

    470

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Ponder is your digging piece. Much like any combo, deck aims to have Natural Order resolved somewhere around turn 3-4. That requires you to have Natural Order (yea), sac outlet (which is less of a problem - since there is Hierarch, GSZ, and Arbor can be fetched) and some pieces of protection. Well, dig for what your are missing, which Ponder does just fine and Brainstorm alone isn't enough.

  5. #45
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinefol View Post
    Ponder is your digging piece. Much like any combo, deck aims to have Natural Order resolved somewhere around turn 3-4. That requires you to have Natural Order (yea), sac outlet (which is less of a problem - since there is Hierarch, GSZ, and Arbor can be fetched) and some pieces of protection. Well, dig for what your are missing, which Ponder does just fine and Brainstorm alone isn't enough.
    If we want a "digging piece," which we don't, it should be Personal Tutor.

    Compare Ponder to Personal Tutor. Personal Tutor finds you Natural Order 100% of the time, mana 100% of the time (through Green Sun's Zenith), a green creature 100% of the time (through Green Sun's Zenith), and protection 0% of the time. Ponder finds you Natural Order about 26% of the time, a green creature or GSZ about 85% of the time, mana about 92% of the time, and protection (which I'm defining as Force of Will, since Mental Misstep almost never protects Natural Order and Daze rarely does), 26% of the time.

    The only thing Ponder does better than Personal Tutor is make poor players keep poor hands. Yet for some reason people keep running it, despite the fact that not only is Ponder bad, Preordain is better and still awful in most decks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  6. #46
    Epic Library
    Brushwagg's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2004
    Location

    Syracuse New York
    Posts

    2,159

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    I have to agree about Ponder not really being needed. I find it in most match-ups it's one of the first cards I board out since every thing else seems to be useful.

    @Kuma: How did you like having the Grim Lavamancers in the MD??
    Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
    "Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."

    The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
    Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.

  7. #47
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Brushwagg View Post
    @Kuma: How did you like having the Grim Lavamancers in the MD??
    I'd probably have liked it more if I saw Merfolk more than once. They're great against Merfolk and Goblins, great at killing Stoneforge Mystic and Mishra's Factory against Uw Stoneblade, great at killing Dark Confidant in the Bw Stoneblade match, and great at killing mana dorks in the mirror. Overall I was pretty pleased with them. As long as Merfolk and Stoneblade are the boogeymen of the format, I'm probably running two in the main and one in the board. Although, I wouldn't say it'd be wrong to cut one for an extra Daze, or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  8. #48
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Personal tutor is card disadvantage, slow and your opponents see it coming. The argument it finds mana/creature and NO sounds very promising but not relevant.

    1)We don't need more redundancy on creatures. (Most builds rund only 3 GSZ)
    2)Running 5 NO would not be good (you can sometimes even side out 1).
    2)A desperation GSZ for 2 which costs 1 turn after loosing a card from the tutor to get the GSZ is a loosing play
    3)The issue is not find NO, but the get to 4 mana with 1 creature (with counter backup) while not dying or beeing raced!!

    Ponder can also ensure you get your land drops (please don't compare a desperation GSZ for 2 with a land drop) and you get what you NEED in time and very often that will be a land, counter, grim, bolt, krosan grip, GY hate,...

    Everyone dismissing Ponder (or siding out too aggressively) does not think correctly about magic deckbuilding. If you have a lot of cards which do the same you don't need Ponder. If you need certain bits and pieces at the right time you need Ponder.
    I know it is tempting to leave Ponder out, because there are soo many good cards (also a boarding issue). However, the overall quality of the deck will suffer!

    Ponder helps you in the same turn and you can use the information about the top of library by optimizing shuffle effects from fetches & GSZ. Very powerful in every stage of the game. Fixing early, but also makes me happy if I am even on board/cards in the late game

    @Kuma: Maybe you suggests Wizards to restrict Prordain in VIntage, since you think it is much better than Ponder! :)

  9. #49
    Member
    Haakon's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Florence, Italy
    Posts

    10

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Someone can tell me how to sideboard against control decks like landeed and classic landstill (with wrath of god and humility)?

    The problem is that I don't know if it's better side out orders and side in jaces...

    Furthermore, I like to hear some feedback from who has tested:
    - krosan grip against ancient grudge
    - surgical extraction against relic of progenitus
    - spell pierce: is it useful in addition to reb/pyroblast?

    Thanks so much

  10. #50
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Someone can tell me how to sideboard against control decks like landeed and classic landstill (with wrath of god and humility)?

    The problem is that I don't know if it's better side out orders and side in jaces...

    Furthermore, I like to hear some feedback from who has tested:
    - krosan grip against ancient grudge
    - surgical extraction against relic of progenitus
    - spell pierce: is it useful in addition to reb/pyroblast?

    Thanks so much
    vs. Deedstill
    - 2 Lightning Bolt
    - 0-1MM
    - 2-3 Daze
    - 1 Grim Lavamancer
    - 1 NO

    + 3 Jace
    + 4 REB/Pyroblast

    vs. UW (with Stoneforge)
    - 0-1MM
    - 1 Lightning Bolt
    - 2-3 Daze
    - 1 NO
    - 1 Grim Lavamancer
    - 1 Goyf

    + 4 REB/Pyroblast
    + 3 Jace

    ...would love to hear other comments and experiences about Grim Lavamancer/LB in those matchups.

    I run ancient grudge over krosan grip, since it is 2 for 1 vs. artifact builds and there are currently not many enchantments out there. Could change...

    I like 3 Surgical Extraction because its free and good vs. loam, reanimate and Dredge. I recently replaced Relic by Scavenging Ooze and was very happy with it.

    I don't have a place for spell pierce and combo is not that common currently (besides we have good game against it). I side Extractions vs. combo to have some value... Versus control I dont think adding more counters is good, because they will always have more...

  11. #51
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Personal tutor is card disadvantage
    So is Natural Order. I don't care if Ponder is card-neutral if it doesn't get me what I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    [Personal Tutor is] slow
    Ponder is slower than Personal Tutor 74% of the time when we need it most. The card we need more often than anything else is Natural Order since it almost always wins us the game if it resolves and we only run four of it. Because we can only run four, Ponder does a poor job of finding it --- about 26% assuming all four copies are still in your deck. You tell me which is slower: getting Natural Order on your next turn guaranteed, or not getting it and having a ~ 1/12 chance of getting it each subsequent turn.

    Also, unless you have the mana to cast Ponder and Natural Order in the same turn, Ponder is as slow as Personal Tutor even if you find Natural Order with it. And if your opponent is playing Daze, are you going to run the Natural Order out there that turn anyway? Probably not.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    your opponents see [Personal Tutor] coming.
    This is true, but is that worth the massive downgrade in reliability? I'd rather have a Natural Order and my opponent know it than not have one at all. Most of the time Natural Order resolves and most of the time it resolves it wins you the game. A lot of decks have no answers to it. Who cares if those decks see it coming?


    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    The argument it finds mana/creature and NO sounds very promising but not relevant.
    How is that not relevant? It's better at finding mana and creatures than Ponder, but somehow that isn't relevant?


    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    1)We don't need more redundancy on creatures. (Most builds run only 3 GSZ)
    Where did I suggest we should run more creatures or Green Sun's Zeniths? You said you run Ponder to get the cards you need, which will often include a green creature. When you need that green creature, Personal Tutor finds it for you an extra 15% of the time. The nice thing about Personal Tutor is that it doesn't have to be a green creature --- it can also be a Natural Order. With Ponder you can't control what you get.


    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    2)Running 5 NO would not be good (you can sometimes even side out 1).
    That might be relevant if we were discussing running a fifth Natural Order, but we're talking about Personal Tutor, a card that can be mana, a green creature, or a Natural Order. I'm sure there have been plenty of times where you wished you were running five, six, or even forty Natural Orders. When you need one, the correct number to be running is as many as possible. Why is it not good to have two extra cards that can function as Natural Orders in those situations while being something else when Natural Order is not needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    2)A desperation GSZ for 2 which costs 1 turn after loosing a card from the tutor to get the GSZ is a loosing play
    You know, you can GSZ with X = 0 to get a Dryad Arbor which is both a green creature and mana. Just saying...

    If you need mana or a green creature, how is a play that gets you mana or a green creature guaranteed a losing play? For that matter, how is a play that fails to get you a green creature 15% of the time, and mana 8% of the time a winning play in that situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    3)The issue is not find NO, but the get to 4 mana with 1 creature (with counter backup) while not dying or beeing raced!!
    Personal Tutor does three out of four of those things better than Ponder. In what way does Ponder better prevent you from dying or being raced than Personal Tutor?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Ponder can also ensure you get your land drops
    Ponder can't ensure you get anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    (please don't compare a desperation GSZ for 2 with a land drop)
    How about I compare a GSZ with X = 0 with a land drop, you know, since it puts a land on the battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    and you get what you NEED in time and very often that will be a land, counter, grim, bolt, krosan grip, GY hate,...
    Okay, if you're spending one mana to get a land that you need NOW, how is that productive? Both Personal Tutor and Ponder are crap at doing that. If you're in a match where you need graveyard hate and you kept a hand with Ponder and no graveyard hate thinking Ponder could find it for you, you're every bit the terrible mulliganer that I suspected you were.

    I suppose Ponder is better at getting Grim Lavamancer and Force of Will than Personal Tutor, but that doesn't change the fact that Ponder is still awful at getting both. I'm not saying that there aren't situations where Ponder is better than Personal Tutor. I'm saying that Ponder is always unreliable, and there are way more situations where Personal Tutor is better. The numbers don't lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Everyone dismissing Ponder (or siding out too aggressively) does not think correctly about magic deckbuilding.
    I think I just mathematically demonstrated that it's you who doesn't understand Magic deckbuilding.

    If you have a lot of cards which do the same you don't need Ponder. If you need certain bits and pieces at the right time you need Ponder.
    I know it is tempting to leave Ponder out, because there are soo many good cards (also a boarding issue). However, the overall quality of the deck will suffer!

    Ponder helps you in the same turn and you can use the information about the top of library by optimizing shuffle effects from fetches & GSZ. Very powerful in every stage of the game. Fixing early, but also makes me happy if I am even on board/cards in the late game

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    @Kuma: Maybe you suggests Wizards to restrict Prordain in VIntage, since you think it is much better than Ponder! :)
    We're not talking about Ponder in Vintage. The quality of Ponder in Vintage is not relevant in a Legacy discussion. I'm not a Vintage expert, but most of the Vintage players I've talked to think that Ponder shouldn't be restricted in Vintage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  12. #52
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Kuma, I don't want to keep on explaining you why most of the points you are making are wrong.
    I was just trying to help...

    As a magic player it is important not to be too convinced of your own opinion, to make sure you keep learning. If you don't understand my arguments it might help to ask yourself why no current builds run personal tutor. Is it because all the grinders finishen TOp8 in large tournaments did not have the stroke of genius that you had... or just because they think personal tutor is not a good option.

  13. #53

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    I'd much rather play Ponder than Personal Tutor if only because it helps you find your SB cards, none of which are sorceries. Hell, half the reason I'm playing this deck is because of how absolutely sick our SB cards are. REB, Grim, and Grudge are really good right now.

  14. #54
    Splitting time between Legacy, EDH and Alterations
    ivanpei's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
    Posts

    1,202

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Cmon, stop trying to bash innovation. I'm glad this is a dtb now as I was the one who actually started the NO-Zenith bant thread in new and developmental. I also proposed personal tutor on that thread and it is actually pretty good in a combo oriented deck. I played a UBG version with thoughtseize for a combo oriented NO deck. Personal tutor is much better when it can fetch thoughtseize as protection for NO.

    I also still prefer NO bant in an open meta but seeing as how popular merfolk is, NO rug is a much better choice at SCG opens. NO rug is a very flexible deck that can play control with grims, aggro with goyfs or combo with NO, in that respect, playing a narrow card like personal over ponder is not a good idea. However, in a version dedicated to forcing through NO, personal is actually a really good card.

    On another note I'm abit annoyed that the opening poster didn't give any credit to the guys in the older thread. We tried sylvan libraries, jace tms, kotrs, rwm and spell pierces. We were also responsible for the adoption of 3-4 cliques and 4-off NOs in these decks. I think the guys on that thread at least deserve a thank you note.

    Lots of good discussion here:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=Zenith+order

  15. #55

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    Cmon, stop trying to bash innovation. I'm glad this is a dtb now as I was the one who actually started the NO-Zenith bant thread in new and developmental. I also proposed personal tutor on that thread and it is actually pretty good in a combo oriented deck. I played a UBG version with thoughtseize for a combo oriented NO deck. Personal tutor is much better when it can fetch thoughtseize as protection for NO.

    I also still prefer NO bant in an open meta but seeing as how popular merfolk is, NO rug is a much better choice at SCG opens. NO rug is a very flexible deck that can play control with grims, aggro with goyfs or combo with NO, in that respect, playing a narrow card like personal over ponder is not a good idea. However, in a version dedicated to forcing through NO, personal is actually a really good card.

    On another note I'm abit annoyed that the opening poster didn't give any credit to the guys in the older thread. We tried sylvan libraries, jace tms, kotrs, rwm and spell pierces. We were also responsible for the adoption of 3-4 cliques and 4-off NOs in these decks. I think the guys on that thread at least deserve a thank you note.

    Lots of good discussion here:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=Zenith+order
    I'm not certain the Bant version of the deck is even relevant, you can just replace Swords to Plowshares with Dismember and run a U/g manabase to be impervious to Wasteland and probably improve your aggro-control and control match ups in the process fwiw.

  16. #56
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    I wasn't going to reply to this post, but I think a few things need addressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    As a magic player it is important not to be too convinced of your own opinion, to make sure you keep learning.
    I could tell you to take your own advice. Instead, I'll just say that I am pretty convinced of my opinion, because I have hard math backing it up. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but not for the reasons you came up with, as I demonstrated. As for learning, I find debates like this far more educational than simply reading someone's posts. Debate forces people to examine their reasoning and explain clearly why they believe the way they do. It's through this process that we discover not only what we are right or wrong about, but why. I'm not the one cutting off debate here.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    If you don't understand my arguments...
    So what you're saying is that the only way I could disagree with you is if I don't understand your arguments? And you're telling me not to be too convinced of my own opinion.

    I believe I fully understood you. I also believe that the evidence you presented is not as convincing as my own. If there's something in particular you feel I didn't properly interpret, please tell me. I don't want to misunderstand you, as that benefits no one.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    it might help to ask yourself why no current builds run personal tutor. Is it because all the grinders finishen TOp8 in large tournaments did not have the stroke of genius that you had... or just because they think personal tutor is not a good option.
    See, this is just wrong. If everyone thought like this there would be zero innovation in the format. I don't really care what all those "grinders" think unless they want to address the very valid points I'm making. The Legacy community has been wrong before. There was a thread in New & Developmental for Vengevine Survival about six months before GP Columbus. The entire Source, even the guy who posted the thread, decided the deck wasn't good enough. A few months after GP Columbus, Survival of the Fittest was banned because of its interaction with Vengevine.

    If Personal Tutor is so obviously bad, it should be pretty easy to explain why Ponder is a better card without an appeal to authority.

    The funny thing is, if you re-read my original rebuttal to your post carefully, you'll see that I'm not actually arguing that we should be running Personal Tutor. I was using it as an example of a card that's better than Ponder that we still shouldn't be running.

    That said, this conversation makes me think Personal Tutor might be worth testing. I might try it at some local events.

    That's why we have these debates. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    On another note I'm abit annoyed that the opening poster didn't give any credit to the guys in the older thread. We tried sylvan libraries, jace tms, kotrs, rwm and spell pierces. We were also responsible for the adoption of 3-4 cliques and 4-off NOs in these decks. I think the guys on that thread at least deserve a thank you note.
    Not to piss in your Cheerios, but there's a reason I didn't list an inventor for the deck. Every time people talk about who invented what, there's always a pissing contest that ends in hurt feelings. It's impossible to hand out credit in most cases, since there's usually multiple people working on the same idea simultaneously. I highly doubt you guys were the first people to try Vendilion Clique, Green Sun's Zenith, and Natural Order in the same deck, and even if you were, NO RUG is a red deck. Adding a new color is far more innovative than running some new combination of obviously powerful Legacy staples.

    Your post comes off as self-aggrandizing and grasping at straws. I sure hope that wasn't your intention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  17. #57
    Member
    Haakon's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Florence, Italy
    Posts

    10

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    I'm testing against maverick, in particoular with the sideboard. Lavamancer, jitte and thrun are very good, but I haven't appreciated relic of progenitus, because it hits reliquiaries but also our goyfs (and they don't play goyf)...

    so I'm asking why other things better to face reliquaries (submerge, mind harness) aren't played?

    In which other match up is used relic? I don't think it's enough in 2 copies against grave-based strategies, so we could substitute it...

    Opinions?

  18. #58
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Sorry Kuma, I did not want to surpress your innovation. I suggest you stop taking this things and too serious. Running personal attacks is not a good advertisement for this magic community.

    Instead of wasting your time with a long emotional post lacking relevant information, you can just say something like "I know that Personal Tutor has certain disadvantages, but I think it is more important to ensure you can find NO and GSZ when you need it".

    Just 1 comment about "mana-fixing" with personal tutor to make sure some innocent reader is not fooled.

    Ponder for a Land drop = mana neutral, card neutral.
    Personal tutor for GSZ = -1 mana same turn, -1 card, -1 mana next turn (if you go for dryad arbor, -2 mana if you go for nobel hierarch)

    So the turn after you made a land drop from Ponder compared to go Personal Tutor for GSZ for dryad arbor you are 1 card and 2-3 mana up. You can judge if this is more important then the chance of missing the land with your Ponder.

  19. #59
    Cabal Therapist
    Kuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Akron, OH
    Posts

    968

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    I'm testing against maverick, in particoular with the sideboard. Lavamancer, jitte and thrun are very good, but I haven't appreciated relic of progenitus, because it hits reliquiaries but also our goyfs (and they don't play goyf)...

    so I'm asking why other things better to face reliquaries (submerge, mind harness) aren't played?

    In which other match up is used relic? I don't think it's enough in 2 copies against grave-based strategies, so we could substitute it...

    Opinions?
    Relic is certainly not the best way to deal with a Knight of the Reliquary. Submerge in response to the activation is good, and Mind Harness isn't a bad idea either, although the cumulative upkeep could make it hard to cast Natural Order.

    Relic of Progenitus is also useful against Dredge and Renaimator and might be worth bringing in against Enchantress as well. If two copies isn't enough against grave-based strategies, the correct thing to do is run more copies, not zero. There isn't a grave-based strategy that we are heavily unfavored against even with grave hate. Now, if you're not running into graveyard decks, sure, cut Relic.

    The reason some people don't run Submerge and Mind Harness is because Bant is a terrible matchup even with sideboard cards. Some fights you just can't win.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Just 1 comment about "mana-fixing" with personal tutor to make sure some innocent reader is not fooled.

    Ponder for a Land drop = mana neutral, card neutral.
    Personal tutor for GSZ = -1 mana same turn, -1 card, -1 mana next turn (if you go for dryad arbor, -2 mana if you go for nobel hierarch)

    So the turn after you made a land drop from Ponder compared to go Personal Tutor for GSZ for dryad arbor you are 1 card and 2-3 mana up. You can judge if this is more important then the chance of missing the land with your Ponder.
    If you need to Ponder for a land, you don't have the mana to play the card you want that turn anyway. The -1 mana next turn is something I didn't consider, so I'll concede that Ponder finds mana for a lower cost than Personal Tutor, even if it doesn't find any mana 8% of the time. But which are you more likely to need, mana or Natural Order/green creature? This is why I think Personal Tutor is better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  20. #60
    Member
    loop's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2008
    Location

    Paris, France
    Posts

    32

    Re: [DTB] Natural Order RUG

    The reason some people don't run Submerge and Mind Harness is because Bant is a terrible matchup even with sideboard cards. Some fights you just can't win.
    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts regarding this match up, what exactly makes it so bad in your opinion?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)