[Deck] Natural Order RUG

[blueneverfails]

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts regarding this match up, what exactly makes it so bad in your opinion?

Knight of the reliquary.............


To actually give you an answer, No RUG runs a creature base of somewhere like this..

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 vendillion clique
1 dryad arbor
or something of this sort.

Bant decks run
4 noble hierarch
1-4 tarmogoyfs
2 vendillion clique
0-4 rhox war monk
1 dryad arbor
4 KNIGHT OF THE RELIQUARY

now with this, no rug has lightning bolt to kill creatures. yes with some help and done early they can get tarmogoyfs, especially if you block with yours. but by itself, the only thing it kills on that list is the clique, noble, and dryad. Bant lists run swords, which means any of your creatures are killed for 1 mana. So if that person drops a knight of the reliquary which is probable with running 4 and running gsz. You cant stop knight first game, and second game with sideboard, you might be able to stop 1 maybe 2 but most of the side i see against it (submerge) they can just get it back with gsz. Also with that knight can easily get bigger than progenitus and can race you. As a person who plays bant, I enjoy playing against no rug mainly because I play natural order too and so with us cancelling out eachother on that regard, it comes down to the creatures and bant will always have better creatures.

[Amon Amarth]

Sower of Temptation might be something to consider. Stealing a KotR would be awesome, seeing as most Bant lists are removal light and Sower dodges most countermagic.

[DrHealex]

I keep procrastinating this post but since I am sick here it is. Oh well, better late than never.
I got 13th place at the SCG Open Cincinatti and my deck is posted here http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...7&iddeck=47116

1 Hive Mind (2-0) Brian J. Higgins
2 Hive Mind (2-0) Joseph J. Keaveny
3 Dredge (2-0) Bond L. Scafuri Or as scavaging ooze likes to call the deck, "the buffet" :D
4 Imperial Painter (0-2) Chris Tolley I played like a donk!ran into trip moon hand g1 & sideboarded bad g2
5 Affinity (0-2) Matthew R. Frazier "god draws" life totals both games 20->18-> me dead t4
6 Esperblade (2-0) Warren J. Connell
7 Zoo (2-1) MARY JACOBSON
8 Zoo (2-0) Dan L. Musser
9 Enchantress (2-1) Christopher C. Gibbons i felt like I was playing bear.dec versus him with only enchantments and instants being in the yards most of the time (g1 was a turbo win for him with sigil)

Oh ooze, how I love thee, I even sideboard you vs zoo along with thrun. Actually, I believe every one of my cards in the SB saw some action, and that makes me proud of them. The dredge deck I beat was "kinda" manaless, he won the roll and chose to draw first. It ran phantasmagorian, bloodghast, although it did run undiscovered paradises and gemstone mines as well which he only used to cast cabal thereapys and small creatures.

In the legacy challenge the night prior I went 3-1 (lossing only in last round to chranderson's Gwb elf combo to silly late game topdeck modes and a goyf that couldnt get past being a 3/4 vs a vengevine) (previous round wins was vs rug control?, u/w mystic, and merfolk)

I think I'll cut a ponder for a sylvan library though... ponder is nice for the digging and the goyf buffing. I don't know how anyone could play a 9th fetch over a basic island though.. it simply boggles my mind.

[Brushwagg]

Well I played this deck yesterday at Jupiter and did aweful with it. I'm still having a huge problem with SBing. The SBing tips in the opening post need to revised I feel. I followed some the hints you gave and after talking to a few opponents, Merfolk example, wondered why I would SB out the NO/Progs. I feel most matches I lost came down to SB issues more then play errors.

I did end up cutting the Fire/Ices in the MD for 2x Grim and like that change alot. Grim won a game or 2 for me by letting me burn my opponent out.

[Kuma]

Well I played this deck yesterday at Jupiter and did aweful with it. I'm still having a huge problem with SBing. The SBing tips in the opening post need to revised I feel. I followed some the hints you gave and after talking to a few opponents, Merfolk example, wondered why I would SB out the NO/Progs. I feel most matches I lost came down to SB issues more then play errors.

I didn't write the sideboarding tips, but I do agree with siding out the NO/Prog package against Merfolk. Between Force of Will, Daze, Cursecatcher, Wasteland, Phyrexian Metamorph, and possibly Spell Pierce and Llawan out of the board, Merfolk runs a crap ton of ways to stop a Natural Order from ever resolving or mattering. Even Dismember and Mental Misstep can keep you off green creatures.

I don't think it's worth all the effort and resources to cast something that almost certainly isn't resolving/mattering. I board -4 Force of Will, -4 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +4 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Grim Lavamancer, + 1 Thrun, the Last Troll, +1 Mountain against Merfolk on the play and also -2 Daze, +1 Trygon Predator, +1 Ancient Grudge on the draw, and just slug it out with powerful anti-blue and anti-creature cards.

FWIW, I had a local Merfolk player help me come to these conclusions.

[Jonathan Alexander]

There are some things that I do differently now, but boarding out the Natural Order package is still my plan against Merfolk, for the reasons Kuma pointed out already. I don't board out Force Of Will, but this is mainly because I don't have that many cards to bring in.
By the way, I Top 8'ed another event today with a slightly new list. I tried out maindeck Spell Pierce and it was quite strong despite not drawing it too often. I also topdecked Natural Orders like a champ all day long and I don't see why you could want to cut them. I don't think I'm going to write a full report but here's the list I played:

//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

//Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force Of Will
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep
4 Natural Order
3 Ponder

//Sideboard
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Energy Flux
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge

Sometimes I felt I was wasting time casting Ponder but it really helped the deck run fluently, so I don't think I'm going to cut them. I also had to mulligan absurdly often and I had to ship my seven because of no land about six times. Anyway, it's nice to see how strong Natural Order is against modern control decks as they are often cutting down to three or even less Force Of Will. This deck is still impressive but I'm afraid I won't be able to play any Legacy events until September (unless I scrub out in the main event at GP Shanghai and can tear down the Legacy side event).

[catmint]

Interesting SB plan versus Merfolk. Makes a lot of sense. Leaving NO in, without good counterbackup is not a very good idea. Also the best way for them to hurt is is by wastelanding the red manasources. That's also the reason why I replaced 1 hierarch with 1 Birds of Paradise. I like the basic mountain, however sacrificing a sideboard slot hurts.

I was 3-0 today in my local tourny. Last round versus Merfolk. He offered to draw to share the first place, but I decided to play... and lost. :( I did leavea NO in...

Game 1 I won with Goyf, bolt & V-clique, because he had a suboptimal draw.

Lost Game 2 to back to basics.

Game 3 I misplay badly not attacking with 2 goyfs and burning his face with lavamancer for the win and loose to commander and reejerey

[ivanpei]

@ Kuma, no self-agrandising intended, it's just common courtesy to acknowledge previous work done. If you wish to deny other sourcers even that, then all the more power to you. When you write a paper in college, you reference other sources/ acknowledge other authors, it's just common courtesy and also it saves alot of effort when re-discussing the same issues. It's easier to point to a debate that has already happened instead of arguing all over again on the optimal number of gsz/natural orders.

If you developed the red splash all on your own and do not wish to acknowledge other input from past threads/never read the thread, sure no worries. We've put alot of effort into the deck and have had plenty of fruitful discussion there. It might not be valuable information to you, but others may find it useful.

Also if you guys actually read that thread, sb plans have also been discussed, NO always gets boarded out against folk. You will have a hard time resolving it vs cursecatchers, daze and wastelands. Equip/grim/llawan are the best answers vs merfolk.

[lordofthepit]

I've been playing mostly Zoo; finished 6-2 in SCG Seattle today, but it felt like an uphill battle with no Merfolk or Goblins in sight. I'm thinking of switching to this deck since it seems like even the worst matchups are roughly 50-50.

For more experienced players, what matchups are you most worried about, and what are the keys to winning them?

[ivanpei]

Folk with submerges and Sowers are hard postboard. Still close to 50/50 if you side properly and play tight. Combo is also a problem. The deck is disruption light md, so you need alot of help post board. I would play teeq + 3 spellpierces in the board while in bant but if you are in red, pyroblasts+ spellpierces are the best you can hope for. Zoo and junk match ups are very close. You néed to balance tempo and gas in those mus. I always board out forces in these mathups, you don't want to be 2-1 ing yourself when everycard counts. I like jaces in the board for these matchups. Jaces are also good vs show and tell/ control. Bug/4c still is also hard. They laugh at your creatures and have "real counterspells" for NO. My board looks like this:

Rug
3 reb/pyro
2 jace tms
1 grim lavamancer (2 md)
1 vendillon clique
2 jitte
3 natures claim/ ancient grudge
3 tormods crypt

[lordofthepit]

Folk with submerges and Sowers are hard postboard. Still close to 50/50 if you side properly and play tight. Combo is also a problem. The deck is disruption light md, so you need alot of help post board. I would play teeq + 3 spellpierces in the board while in bant but if you are in red, pyroblasts+ spellpierces are the best you can hope for. Zoo and junk match ups are very close. You néed to balance tempo and gas in those mus. I always board out forces in these mathups, you don't want to be 2-1 ing yourself when everycard counts. I like jaces in the board for these matchups. Jaces are also good vs show and tell/ control. Bug/4c still is also hard. They laugh at your creatures and have "real counterspells" for NO. My board looks like this:

Rug
3 reb/pyro
2 jace tms
1 grim lavamancer (2 md)
1 vendillon clique
2 jitte
3 natures claim/ ancient grudge
3 tormods crypt

Thanks for the pointers.

Are there any matchups where you would board out the Natural Order combo?

[SMR0079]

Thanks for the pointers.

Are there any matchups where you would board out the Natural Order combo?

Hive Mind

[Muradin]

I've been testing Animar, Soul of Elements as a singleton in the board as I found quite some decks running Knight of the Reliquary + a way to deal with Natural Order to be rather problematic matchups with this deck. So far she has been amazing in testing as a pro white/black target for GSZ. Of course the card doesn't play to its full potential in this deck, but its still pretty strong.

In general I found a board with Scavenging Ooze, Trygon Predator, Thrun and Animar to be worth the slots, as each of those cards is fine on its own as well.

Especially Ooze is a gem for this deck, making your Tarmogoyfs real contenders against Knight of the Reliquary. My testing in general has shown that tribal matchups are favorable.
But my best bet against bant has been to rely on resolving Natural Order, as especially the no FoW versions run a much higher card quality than this deck and I lose the game if I can't resolve Natural Order most of the time. This was significantly easier against GW Maverick because they have less disruption for this plan and their Aven Mindcensor's / Gaddock Teeg have a hard time living through our burn.

What's your experience against Bant/GWx midrange with this deck? I already thought about playing Blood Moon in the board, as it would totally crush them most of the time (we can easily burn Noble Hierarch and they usually don't fetch basics due to us running no Wastelands) and its another unexpected thread.

[Muradin]

EDIT:
*Doublepost*

[Kuma]

Bant and Maverick are tough matchups, especially Bant. You pretty much need Natural Order to beat either deck. I've talked about why Bant is so tough before, and a lot of those reasons hold true for Maverick. Maverick will beat you with its superior number and quality of creatures just like Bant. While you don't have to watch out for countermagic, you have to watch for Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor. I've also lost hard to a Scryb Ranger when I was relying on Vendilion Clique to get there. I've found Umezawa's Jitte to be helpful.

Zoo and junk match ups are very close. You néed to balance tempo and gas in those mus. I always board out forces in these mathups, you don't want to be 2-1 ing yourself when everycard counts. I like jaces in the board for these matchups.

Wait, you like Jace against Zoo? I don't know about you, but I don't like Jace against anything running Lightning Bolt, let alone 12 burn.dec.

Honestly, aside from Lands and Reanimator, I haven't found a single matchup where I like Jace.

[Kellyx]

Hey, versus who do u side jace, tms?And what to side out if you do it?
I just think that there are more gamebreacking sideboard options:S like direct grave hate, direct artifact hate, direct tribal hate (like firespout).

[Jonathan Alexander]

There sure are some really backbreaking sideboard options against linear decks like Affinity or Dredge, but Jace, The Mind Sculptor isn't supposed to be brought in against these decks (which you can mostly beat easily anyway). Jace is there for the control matchups (especially Landstill). For me, he hasn't been extraordinarily good or something, so I'm not running him right now. This is also a bit due to the fact that these decks aren't common in Germany, where Stoneblade acts as a foil to the heavily played aggro decks. You can beat Stoneblade without Jace anyway, so I really don't need him.
If you're looking for top-notch sideboard strategies, consider Grim Lavamancer, Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip and Submerge. These are really strong cards right now.

Also, Kuma. I haven't found Maverick to be too hard of a matchup, and I'm frequently playing against it. My plan for all these GW-based decks is too board out the beatdown plan and go all-in on the combo. This is working really well and especially Submerge helps executing this plan. Keep your Lightning Bolts and other burn for Gaddock Teeg while saving your Submerges for Aven Mindcensor. I'm usually just playing the tempo-disruption role until I find Natural Order and resolve it. Fire // Ice also helps preventing them from racing as it can burn down their manadorks or tap down huge threats and Batterskull. Even if their running Mental Misstep the matchup isn't too hard. Light blue splashes with sideboard Spell Pierce is also definitely winnable, but the more blue they are (i.e. Bant Aggro) the harder the matchup becomes.
Most matchups with this deck are kind of close and only slightly favoured (except for tribal) but knowing what to expect in your metagame really helps a lot, probably more than with most other decks. The only thing I'm missing is a non-Jace planeswalker to bring in against control decks. I'd love to have Elspeth, Knight-Errant, but running four colours might be a tad too much considering I wouldn't want to run Swords To Plowshares anyway and really only splash for Elspeth while still looking to play Grim Lavamancer.
Did anyone test Punishing Fire // Grove Of The Burnwillows yet? I wonder how it works out in this deck.

[Kellyx]

Ive heard there is some trick with progenitus having vigilance.
Could someone please tell me what exactly is it?

[sourcefire]

If you have Prog on the battlefield and attack with him, you can then cast another Natural Order, sacrifice Prog (which gets reshuffled into your library instead of going to the yard) and you can search your library for him and drop him into play untapped.

[coraz86]

Slightly OT, check out konsultant getting some love from the Star City crew. It's about fucking time one of their Deck 'Techs' was something legit, rather than whatever Drew Levin is going 1-2 drop with this week.

I especially love both his sideboard and his explanation of what's going on with it.