CounterBlade. If they are running varied mana-bases then their deck is slow, which gives us time to drop Batterskull. If they are running low CMC spells, they lose to CBT. If they have vial, they are likely merfolk or goblins, which can also lose to Batterskull.Originally Posted by Zunam
All valid points. However I still don't see a need to run Counterbalance.
Varied Mana-bases make them slow and allow us to drop Batterskull but this is also true if we are not running Counterbalance at all.
Running Counterbalance makes us even slower because the "Combo" is quite Mana heavy which doesn't pair well with Batterskull (especially if we cannot stick the SFM).
I am not saying that Counterbalance is bad I am just saying it's not worth it at the moment.
Especially because the combo requires something between 6-8 slots and I am not willing to dedicate that amount of slots to something that is just "OK" in most matchups if the Meta isn't becoming combo-heavy.
- To avoid auto-loss to storm? To help fight Zoo by forcing them to choose to either blow up batterskulls or CB with pridemages? To have a soft-lock to protect our SFM/Batterskulls better? Last time I checked CBT was still good against Zoo. CBT also protects our SFM against Zoos removal.
- Stop claiming it is intensive without trying it first. I have personally tried it and the claims that the two don't work is a bunch of crap. Considering that Batterskulls abilities and SFM abilities can be used at instant speed, the mana issue is relatively minor.Varied Mana-bases make them slow and allow us to drop Batterskull but this is also true if we are not running Counterbalance at all.
Running Counterbalance makes us even slower because the "Combo" is quite Mana heavy which doesn't pair well with Batterskull (especially if we cannot stick the SFM).
- Except CBT is still very good at protecting our SFM even if the opponent tries to circumvent CB using vials/GSZ. Also, Blade control is far too slow versus storm decks which are very likely going to make a resurgence in response to many dead decks that died off. Combo, even if it isn't popular in the U.S, sees plenty of play in Europe.I am not saying that Counterbalance is bad I am just saying it's not worth it at the moment.
Especially because the combo requires something between 6-8 slots and I am not willing to dedicate that amount of slots to something that is just "OK" in most matchups if the Meta isn't becoming combo-heavy.
It's still not convincing me:
-Blade Control doesn't auto-lose to storm. It might not be heavily favored but there are a lot of cards available that are good (even though not as good as MM was) against storm combo. The counter package (depending on build: Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Daze, Counterspell ...)combined with connecting 1-2 times with Batterskull have worked for me especially when bringing in additional hate from the sideboard. And then there still is the Clique.
At the moment I do not see the need to run any specific mainboard hate.
Yes CB is still good against Zoo but not as good as it used to be. GSZ helps a lot as well as a larger variation in the casting cost of their cards (especially with our own weakness in the 3CC slot).
-And having both CB/Top and Batterskull "is" intensive on the Mana-Base. I tried it with and without MM legal and always had problems especially against Wasteland. Additionally you are under pressure really fast if you miss on a land-drop early on. Those are things that I want to avoid for consistency reasons.
-If Combo (read: Storm Combo) will show up more often I might consider running CB again. But I am still not sure if this deck is the one supporting it the best. I cannot speak for Europe as a whole but at least Combo isn't a big factor at the moment in my region.
Considering that I expect a Meta with RUG, Merfolk, Zoo and GW-Maverick as the biggest factors for the next weeks I don't see this as a environment that demands for -or favors Counterbalance.
- Fair enough.
How do you purpose to protect your stoneblade without MMS now?
How about the good old Counterspell?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
What I am currently running is a straight UW list where I upped the amount of Cliques and Hardcounters (Counterspell) and am running Swords in different color combinations between sideboard and Mainboard.
It's not as good as it was with MM but it is still good. Having had no big problems with protecting my threats up to now but to be fair my experience after the banning is based only on test-games against friends (however with relavant decks) and some minor MWS action - no tournament experience yet after the banning.
- Waiting until turn 4+ to cast a stoneblade versus zoo/goblins/merfolk is a great way to die.
- What does your current list look like?
That's what I am currently running (not really settled since MM bannning).
Nothing spectacular except for maybe the Standstills.
I felt like switching back to them lately because I felt like Ancestral Visions was a bit too slow when drawn late in the game. But this might change back when I have run some more games.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [M12] Island
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [DDF] Mishra's Factory
1 [M12] Plains
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
2 [DD2] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 [CMD] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
I noticed this one at Milano in 8th place with 118 players. I had to laugh a little at it. Talk about going back to the roots. Hawks are in there and the old Counterspells and Thopter Foundries even. Gotta give some credit to making it that far with that many people. Just seems outdated anymore though I always thought the Hawks were decent, Clique was just a necessity at the time.
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Thopter Foundry
Side
2 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
I played this deck at a tournament recently and I must say that I have no idea why this deck is in the "decks to beat" section.
The best play is, that on turn two you tap out play a Mystic, get an overcosted equipment, spend the next turn praying that your Mystic somehow survives the crazy amount of creature removal available, then tap out again to play the Batterskull and on turn 4 finally start attacking with it.
Not only is this incredibly slow, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that starts attacking on turn 4 at best isn't that impressive either... . And that is assuming the Mystic lives a turn when you're tapped out.
It's my impression that this deck loses to virtually everything available: zoo, merfolk, goblins, combo, Hive mind, you name it. I even got raced by Affinity. Yes, Affinity! Does this deck have any good matchups at all?
I would probably say that the best play is not playing stoneforge turn 2. You are a control deck, counter their threats or remove them and when they stumble run out the mystic and get a clock going.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
If you lost to all those archtypes you either got unlucky, picked up the wrong list or played it wrong. But after the MM banning i think your point of the deck being too slow makes perfect sense.
I don't see this kind of deck in the DTB section anymore, but this obviously needs some time to proof. I still hope that i can use my mystics even after a few weeks
Mental misstep is their to protect mystic... also you vial in batterskull at the end of their turn (your turn 3) leaving you with one mana untapped.
on turn four your not tapped out and have a 4/4 lifelink swinging.
did you really play this deck or just assume it was bad...
and also mental misstep is the real reason this deck was able to win. Being able to stop vial and lackey also dark rituals from combo. and SSS are their to counter your copy of the pacts.
as for affinity and zoo, i had one wrath of god main board and mental misstep is really strong against zoo.
Yeah, MM protects mystic and it's also the real reason this deck was able to win BEFORE. But the card that you are fascinated with is not playable in legacy format anymore. Better start thinking on how to modify your maindeck/strategy now that MM is gone.
Now back to the strategy topic:
Based on my testing, adding counterbalance to the deck makes it too mana intensive. On the other hand, it's the closest way how MM protects SFM before. I will stick to CBTop strategy until the new meta in our country shapes-up.
Yesterday I got second out of 293 in the first big legacy event post bannings, winning a bunch of duals with this list:
// Lands
6 [B] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
This is basically the list which won me the flight to Amsterdam last month, switching the missteps for the new mages and one extra clique. Mages performed really well all day long recycling swords to plowshares mainly, and also brainstorms and diverse counterspells (snare, cpsell and red blasts from the sb). I have done a report but it's in spanish, if someone would like to read it using google translator and/or discuss anything about it or about the deck in general I can link it to him with no problem. My pairings were: GWB depths rock, Mirror with faeries, goblins, TA, GBR scapeshift, natural order bant, landstill UGB, merfolk, and in the top8 ooze reanimator, ANT and again the natural order bant from the swiss rounds, which was the only deck I lost against during the day.
Last edited by Frid; 10-02-2011 at 08:55 PM.
maybe is a stupid question but how does interact Snapcaster Mage with Ancestral Vision?
It doesn't.
Congratulations! :D
I'm very glad to see deck is viable without mental misstep, and i have few questions.
- How do yo feel about playing without MM?
- Do you think that deck can stand in new metagame without MMs, and can it perform good results with pure UW color?
- Is it red splash essential to survive in new meta, or is it possible to splash other colors (black or green perhaps) other than red, to have answer/versatility on weak matchups and rest of the metagame?
Could you please give us some report？
Congratulation on your result
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