[DTB] Blade Control

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So have you ever played b2b, or is this just something that you believe? I own both and I'm not saying Blood Moon is bad, I just don't think it's worth the splash. That puts blood moon in a 3 color deck and honestly, other than lands (where b2b is honestly just as good) and Bug (where b2b is only situationally worse), I don't think it makes a difference to the point of splashing a 3rd color. I'd rather make spells like Spell Pierce better and relevant longer/again, whereas Blood Moon can make it worse (no blue to play it, still allows them to pay 2). Furthermore, B2B shuts off Dryad Arbor but blog moon just makes it a 1/1 mountain creature. There's more, but I'm on my phone and I'm tired from work. More on this tomorrow (I'm off), but I'd like to point out that Joe Bernal plays B2B in Esper to much success.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[lost_ronin_soul]

So have you ever played b2b, or is this just something that you believe? I own both and I'm not saying Blood Moon is bad, I just don't think it's worth the splash. That puts blood moon in a 3 color deck and honestly, other than lands (where b2b is honestly just as good) and Bug (where b2b is only situationally worse), I don't think it makes a difference to the point of splashing a 3rd color. I'd rather make spells like Spell Pierce better and relevant longer/again, whereas Blood Moon can make it worse (no blue to play it, still allows them to pay 2). Furthermore, B2B shuts off Dryad Arbor but blog moon just makes it a 1/1 mountain creature. There's more, but I'm on my phone and I'm tired from work. More on this tomorrow (I'm off), but I'd like to point out that Joe Bernal plays B2B in Esper to much success.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

I've done testing with blood moon. I took it out on the way to Syracuse(no regrets). I have played enough turbodrazi matchups where I just never find it. It does help against lands but I can win with out it. I has tested magus of the moon and that seemed sweet here and there and I preferred him in the main as a 2 of when I tried it out. I am sure blood moon can help against bug here and there, but I feel like I leave myself vulnerable to what they already have on the field. I just don't want to fight a goyf/tasigur/flipped delver and draw a moon over removal. It is typically the card I sideboarded in the least when it was in my sideboard. (which sucks because I like it because mine is shiney) I think back to basic attacks on a similar angle and one of my buddy tested it a lot and wasn't too impressed with b2b.

[Collman]

So have you ever played b2b, or is this just something that you believe? ... I'd like to point out that Joe Bernal plays B2B in Esper to much success.

I've actually played with it quite a bit after seeing it in the maindeck of a Joe Bernal list quite some time ago. I still prefer Blood Moon. Looking forward to the rest.

Cheers.

[redesign1991]

Is Esper still viable or is the red splash simply better? I'm looking into the possibility to create an Esper Stoneblade deck since I own most cards for that manabase and it would save me some money. Also could someone provide me with a more recent Esper list?

[Poron]

we play no Mountains so blue fetches are all ehat you need. If Volcanic are too expensive you can use the 2 life lands.. normally they have the very same effect of the dual land

[HSCK]

I'm not saying that red is a bad splash, I'm saying it's hard to progress any other build for all the people suggesting red. I don't think red is the best, I think it's the easiest build to play. REBs are blue spells with a red cc. Blood Moon is okay for specific matchups, but it's not necessarily any better than B2B. Lightning Bolt is junk as far as removal goes, but when you play TNN, obviously it's a faster clock on your opponent since you won't need to waste said removal on bockers. I think that may have the most to do with why it's winning. That and not many legacy grinders are playing other builds, as most players straight-up net-deck. This leads me to my previous statement. I am wanting to discuss UW builds here, but when red constantly is shoved at me, I can't work on my build, and then I get people like you who don't get this concept and continue to push red further from this misguided standpoint. But don't worry. I gave up and went to BUG. It's not like Stoneblade is making it big. They'll fall back down next month and UWr Delver will slide back up.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Straight UW has one good performance in the last year. And if you don't want to talk about Stoneblade then you can stop posting, no one's forcing you to.

[lost_ronin_soul]

we play no Mountains so blue fetches are all that you need. If Volcanic are too expensive you can use the 2 life lands.. normally they have the very same effect of the dual land

I play a basic mountain. I do it to allow lightning bolt to stay in against wasteland decks that runs creatures.

Is Esper still viable or is the red splash simply better? I'm looking into the possibility to create an Esper Stoneblade deck since I own most cards for that manabase and it would save me some money. Also could someone provide me with a more recent Esper list?

I think Esper, is REALLY REALLY good. That being said, I prefer Red Splash personally. As for which is better, I believe depends completely on the pilot of the deck. I am very familiar with my red splash list because it has been my primary deck for a few years now. This is very dual land light list but is kind of a rouge deck (3 blue duals, 1 non blue) and runs terminus and sensei diving top. Which ever deck you are more familiar with is probably the better deck for you as you will be able to recognize more outs in bad situations, as well as identify better lines of play through any given game and matchup.

some recent lists off star city in the past 30days (I think its actually all stone blade lists off starcity in the past 30 days)
Red splash 1st place Syracuse 5K Premier IQ
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=82342

Esper Death Blade 5K Premier IQ Richmond's 26th Place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=82031

Richmond 11th Place invitational blue white
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=81895

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Straight UW has one good performance in the last year. And if you don't want to talk about Stoneblade then you can stop posting, no one's forcing you to.

Someone put their mommy pants on.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[useL]

Is Esper still viable or is the red splash simply better? I'm looking into the possibility to create an Esper Stoneblade deck since I own most cards for that manabase and it would save me some money. Also could someone provide me with a more recent Esper list?

Hi.
If we talk about main deck the red splash is better versus a creature based meta. You have the Lightning Bolt as your secondary removal. Esper brings discard instead to the main deck and some value creatures like Lingering Souls and Tasigur. I would say that this list is better versus a control/combo meta.


Sideboards are also different of course. The red splash offers red blasts and cards as blood moon and keranos where esper offers more discard, zealous persecution and sweepers like perish/toxic deluge.

It all comes down to what kind of game you want to play and what creatures you fancy. If you face alot of storm/reanimator/mirakles I would go with esper. If you are up against alot of dnt/shardless/blade I would play jeskai.

In this thread theres a huge swing of people playing with Lightning Bolt. I believe that depends on two things, first of all some of the players derive from patriot-lists and they grew tired of Delver and the second half is that it is easier to recover from a mistake with a Lightning Bolt list than the esper list.

I have tried both and I would say theres a huge difference in both playstyle and how the games pan out. I am going to GP Lille and have decided that esper is better than jeskai at the moment. The question remains though; should I play Monastery Mentor or not =)

[useL]

No wonder we got bumped down to Established decks again, this thread is more silent than my grandmothers grave.

[redesign1991]

Hi.
If we talk about main deck the red splash is better versus a creature based meta. You have the Lightning Bolt as your secondary removal. Esper brings discard instead to the main deck and some value creatures like Lingering Souls and Tasigur. I would say that this list is better versus a control/combo meta.


Sideboards are also different of course. The red splash offers red blasts and cards as blood moon and keranos where esper offers more discard, zealous persecution and sweepers like perish/toxic deluge.

It all comes down to what kind of game you want to play and what creatures you fancy. If you face alot of storm/reanimator/mirakles I would go with esper. If you are up against alot of dnt/shardless/blade I would play jeskai.

In this thread theres a huge swing of people playing with Lightning Bolt. I believe that depends on two things, first of all some of the players derive from patriot-lists and they grew tired of Delver and the second half is that it is easier to recover from a mistake with a Lightning Bolt list than the esper list.

I have tried both and I would say theres a huge difference in both playstyle and how the games pan out. I am going to GP Lille and have decided that esper is better than jeskai at the moment. The question remains though; should I play Monastery Mentor or not =)

Thanks for pointing it out like this!

[Hrothgar]

Hi.
If we talk about main deck the red splash is better versus a creature based meta. You have the Lightning Bolt as your secondary removal. Esper brings discard instead to the main deck and some value creatures like Lingering Souls and Tasigur. I would say that this list is better versus a control/combo meta.

Sideboards are also different of course. The red splash offers red blasts and cards as blood moon and keranos where esper offers more discard, zealous persecution and sweepers like perish/toxic deluge.

It all comes down to what kind of game you want to play and what creatures you fancy. If you face alot of storm/reanimator/mirakles I would go with esper. If you are up against alot of dnt/shardless/blade I would play jeskai.

The discard effects are great vs every deck imho.
An example: i try the esper version vs MUD and work very good.
For a creatures based meta, some cards like Toxic deluge and Liliana help us.

Anyway a play the UWR version because have double power imho:
Blast effects give a great control vs counter, jace, and tempo deck...
Bolt are good vs creatures like Deathrite, Confidant, some elves.
I have access to cards like Pyroclasm and Blood Moon...very strong in some situations.
I like Wear/Tear.

In this thread theres a huge swing of people playing with Lightning Bolt. I believe that depends on two things, first of all some of the players derive from patriot-lists and they grew tired of Delver and the second half is that it is easier to recover from a mistake with a Lightning Bolt list than the esper list.

I quote this.
My firts deck is Miracle but my 2nd was Patriot...now i change into UWR Blade control.
This deck are more solid than Patriot and give some defense option that I like.

I miss my Wasteland...
About Wasteland and tempo i have see a good list in the Kyoto GP:

Creatures [10]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [23]
1 Mana Leak
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dig Through Time
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle

Sorceries [2]
2 Ponder

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [22]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Some ideas?

I have tried both and I would say theres a huge difference in both playstyle and how the games pan out. I am going to GP Lille and have decided that esper is better than jeskai at the moment. The question remains though; should I play Monastery Mentor or not =)

Yes, are 2 different approach.
Maybe the Esper version are more solid but in this time imho UWR version are guile in this meta.

;)

I don't like Monastery Mentor in this deck.
In the Esper version I like Confidant, You have try it?

[useL]

Hrothgar:

1) The list with wasteland in it I heard was a metacall due to everyone playing Boseiju in their omnitell lists. It seems reasonable though after I had this discussion with my friend I came to the conclusion that if you play Jace TMS it might be contraproductive to play wasteland. On turn three, waste for tempo or save for jace? It also brings a rocky manabase.

2) I have tried some Dark Confidant but am not sure if its the right card in MD. Drawing extra cards are nice but the creature itself applies very little pressure against most decks. Maybe it is a better sideboard card than my venser/notion-thief duo that I run at the moment?

3) What is so wrong with Mentor? I have seen that miracles nowadays have them in their sideboard instead of the mystic package they used to have. He is a really fine threat on an empty board. He can quite fast deal 6-8 damage with his minions. I am merely considering him instead of one Lingering Souls in my deck. I like to diversify threats and right now I run 4 Stoneforge, 2 Snapcasters, 1 TNN, 3 Lingering, 1 Clique and 2 JTMS as wincons.

[Hrothgar]

1) The list with wasteland in it I heard was a metacall due to everyone playing Boseiju in their omnitell lists. It seems reasonable though after I had this discussion with my friend I came to the conclusion that if you play Jace TMS it might be contraproductive to play wasteland. On turn three, waste for tempo or save for jace? It also brings a rocky manabase.

This is right.
If I play a classic Stoneblade, i like my solid manabase and I have not conflict Jace vs Waste.
I have seen different list (normally UW) that who play some copies of Wasteland and Mishra, but the lands count go to 24.

Specifically, the list that I have post, have a good tempo concept, with 4x Waste and 4x Stifle.
An experiment? Yes, but with VERY good results.

Players at the start: 1945 - final result: 5 position

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16756&iddeck=125533

I want to try the list in consideration of this.

2) I have tried some Dark Confidant but am not sure if its the right card in MD. Drawing extra cards are nice but the creature itself applies very little pressure against most decks. Maybe it is a better sideboard card than my venser/notion-thief duo that I run at the moment?

The meaning of this 3 cards are totally different imho.
Maybe this are meta choise.

3) What is so wrong with Mentor? I have seen that miracles nowadays have them in their sideboard instead of the mystic package they used to have. He is a really fine threat on an empty board. He can quite fast deal 6-8 damage with his minions. I am merely considering him instead of one Lingering Souls in my deck. I like to diversify threats and right now I run 4 Stoneforge, 2 Snapcasters, 1 TNN, 3 Lingering, 1 Clique and 2 JTMS as wincons.

If Your idea is replace the Lingering souls with the Monastery Mentor I'm fully in accord with you, I don't like Lingering if I don't play a 3rd equipment.

I work in viewpoint UWR and i don't find the slots for the Mentor.
Forgot about the Miracle lists with Mentor, this deck work too different.

[rancOr_]

I think Esper is pretty good positioned aswell now. The fact that u have discard and potential hatebears to complement counters is nice vs the Omnitell (and other combo)decks. And Esper never had troubles playing against Delver decks either..
SFM can go in favor of Monastery Mentor/Tasigur. I feel like it isnt needed anymore and Mentor gives the deck another angle and fast way to gain control of the board if left unchecked.

[useL]

I am considering a EsperBlade chat on facebook. If you are interested and are not completely new to the archetype then please send me a notice (private message) here on thesource and we can make something happen. Easier to chat about small things there than writing posts here in some cases.

[TnA_Will]

Is Esper still viable or is the red splash simply better? I'm looking into the possibility to create an Esper Stoneblade deck since I own most cards for that manabase and it would save me some money. Also could someone provide me with a more recent Esper list?

Here is the Esper version I have been running. (Granted this is sort of a hybrid between Blade and u/w/b standstill style deck) It's not very far off from the R splash though.... I have chosen a more agro/temp style of Esper(which is like the young pyromancer version of Jeskai Stoneblade; instead of the snap caster/Jace control/tempo style. Young Pyromancer R splash can run Pyromancer, digs, probes, lightning bolts, and pyro blasts. In those slots I run Bitter Blossom, StandStill, Spell Stutter Sprite, (more) Ponder/spell pierce, and STP.

Because of the tempo style and the complimentary fact of Standstill I run Mutavaults (helps with beats and can help with Fae Count for Sprites) instead of Wasteland or additional colored mana sources, and I run 1 of Tar Pit for beats as well.

Likewise in the board the R splash gives them pyroblast and Lavamancer and I use the B splash for access to Zealous Persecution. I have thought about testing Myth Realized in the deck but have yet to try it.

Here is the decklist I'm currently on:

Lands (23)
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Creatures (10)

3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis


Other Spells (27)
1 Batterskull
4 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The sideboard is configured heavily for anti combo, because in local meta there is a lot of it running around and not nearly as many fair decks...

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Flusterstorm
3 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Supreme Verdict

[TnA_Will]

Is Esper still viable or is the red splash simply better? I'm looking into the possibility to create an Esper Stoneblade deck since I own most cards for that manabase and it would save me some money. Also could someone provide me with a more recent Esper list?

Here is the Esper version I have been running. (Granted this is sort of a hybrid between Blade and u/w/b standstill style deck) It's not very far off from the R splash though.... I have chosen a more agro/temp style of Esper(which is like the young pyromancer version of Jeskai Stoneblade; instead of the snap caster/Jace control/tempo style. Young Pyromancer R splash can run Pyromancer, digs, probes, lightning bolts, and pyro blasts. In those slots I run Bitter Blossom, StandStill, Spell Stutter Sprite, (more) Ponder/spell pierce, and STP.

Because of the tempo style and the complimentary fact of Standstill I run Mutavaults (helps with beats and can help with Fae Count for Sprites) instead of Wasteland or additional colored mana sources, and I run 1 of Tar Pit for beats as well.

Likewise in the board the R splash gives them pyroblast and Lavamancer and I use the B splash for access to Zealous Persecution. I have thought about testing Myth Realized in the deck but have yet to try it.

Here is the decklist I'm currently on:

Lands (23)
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Creatures (10)

3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis


Other Spells (27)
1 Batterskull
4 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The sideboard is configured heavily for anti combo, because in local meta there is a lot of it running around and not nearly as many fair decks...

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Flusterstorm
3 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Supreme Verdict

[Hrothgar]

This Jeskai blade control list finish 7th at Cliveland's open:


Creatures (10)

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)

2 Island
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

Spells (26)

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Council's Judgment

Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Containment Priest
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict


Very good performance in a top 16 with 10 different archetypes.


Noteworthy MD:

- 4 Tundra
- 3 DTT
- 2 Council's Judgment

Noteworthy SB:

- 1 SoFaF
- 1 Baneslayer
- 3 Surgical

Imho this is a solid list and the only cards i don't like are the 2x spell pierce, 'cause the deck have not control on opponent's lands. I play 2x Spell Snare and they work very good.

In sideboard i love 2x Containment Priest and 2x Blood Moon.
1 Pyroclasm and 1 Supreme Verdict give more control vs creatures.

The only problem of this list is, imho, the absence of Ponder.

[h2o]

Hey Hrothgar, that was me

My overall strategy with the deck is: do 1 for 1 trades early, Brainstorm, and set up a Dig through Time. Dig for the correct threats and then switch to being proactive.

Let me comment on my deck choices:

4 Tundra/2 Volc: I prefer to fetch Volcanics Just In Time when you're going to cast something. I don't like to leave them around waiting to get Wastelanded, instead baiting them to waste my white sources. Also with so many double white cards, naturally drawing a nonwhite source sucks. The only thing you potentially lose out on here is Bolt-Snap-Bolt plays.

1 Plains: I used to run 2 so I could play double white cards under Blood Moon, but I cut a Plains for the 12th Fetch when I added a second Clique (cutting the forth StP).

0 Ponder: Ponder is an excellent turn 1 play, and an excellent late game play, but it is bad on turns 2-5 which is where most of Legacy happens. This deck is mana-hungry and I just think it is so important to pass with as much mana available as possible unless you are playing a threat.

2 Spell Pierce: A concession to shenanigans like Chalice, Trinisphere, Grim Monolith, and Liliana. It might be the worst card in the 60 but it can save your ass sometimes.

3 Dig: This card is essential. It is the lifeblood of control archetypes these days. I don't know whether it's correct to run 3 or 4, but I've lost games to having multiples in my hand before.

2 Council's Judgment: A concession to Miracles, D&T, TNN, planeswalkers, and MUD. Yes, MUD is a real deck. Some advocate a 1:1 split - you could trade it for a Pyroblast in the main if you have a lot of blue decks in the meta. I brought in Pyroblast less than 50% of the time last weekend.

1 Feast and Famine: I see no reason not to play this card, it's good in all of the matchups that Jitte is not, you don't want to run just 1 equipment, and there are some matchups where you want all 3 equipment.

1 Baneslayer: This is one of the haymaker cards against BUG Delver, along with Blood Moon. Abrupt Decay decks usually have no out to Baneslayer aside from Liliana or Toxic Deluge. Also an extra threat in grindy matchups.

2 Blood Moon: This is the only card (besides not yet owning Underground Seas) keeping me from playing Esper control lists. It's so good, it's an auto win against BUG if they tap out, RUG if they can't find a Forest for Grip, and UWR Delver has no answer to it. Great against Post and MUD, but not an auto-win. In retrospect I should have brought it in against Infect (my only loss in Swiss).

1 Supreme Verdict: This card does so much work. Pyroclasm is risky but has its upsides in some matchups.

3 Surgical: Your graveyard hate is dicey because you are playing Dig and Snapcaster. Rest in Peace and Grafdiggers are very awkward. I still haven't won against Dredge with the Surgical+Priest combo in 3 matches, it's kind of a punt. Surgical also does work against Punishing Fire and Loam decks.

My local meta (KidForce Collectibles in Berea, OH) has a very interesting meta because there's always 12 Post, MUD, and some sort of Lands deck. So I was used to playing against those cards and being prepared for them.

Results

Legacy Plus event on Saturday: 3-0-1. Drew against Rw Painter, wins against BUG Delver, UWR Delver (the 10th place finisher on Sunday), and D&T.

Legacy IQ: Beat Jund and MUD, lost to Infect, Beat BUG Delver (Danny Jessup), Jund again, Storm, and MUD again. Only won that match because he missed his Coercive Portal trigger. Drew with MUD in round 8. Yes, I somehow found 3 out of the 4 MUD players in the room.

Top 8 vs Miracles

I win G1 after beating him down to 7 or 6. He goes down to 3 off of Fetches and Forces, and I find the Lightning Bolt.

G2: I brought in 2 Surgicals (my friends and I later agreed this was a mistake). I have a Clique, F&F, and Batterskull in play, and Baneslayer in hand (he's at 9). He casts Terminus off Top on my turn with no cards left in hand. I Surgical the Terminus forcing him to shuffle away his Top. He topdecks Top for his turn anyways! I play Baneslayer, he finds Council's Judgement. I replay Batterskull, he finds Snapcaster flashing back Council's.

G3 he gets an early Clique to strip my hand and beat me down easily.

My only 2 losses throughout the weekend were to players from my LGS. We have a tough crowd on Tuesdays there!