I don't think I will ever understand running less than a full 4x TNN. Honestly, I've already had to pitch one and I don't think I will ever relish that, but I do know that I felt better knowing I had 4, and would probably run across (and in fact did) another one. You are in a different area of building than I am, but that's good for testing. Let me know how the Jace/Elspeth build goes. I wouldn't mind being able to MD my money cards again, but like I said, seems that it's too...control-oriented for a TNN based list. I love the Elspeth idea, can't stress that enough. Would SoLS be an option? Wouldn't mind a non-mana option of being able to grab back discarded Nemeses (plural of Nemesis), Strix, and etc. It's probably nothing, it's just that it's so tempting. It's always ended up being lack-luster, I'm just whining. Never mind me.
This is better than Geist, not just for obvious reasons of inviolability, but also for the simple fact that I landed a second one in a game. That was awesome. One had a sword on it, the other I left open for blocking and just wrecked it all. This is gonna get banned...
-ABC
I agree that my list is different from yours. I've always been on the more controlling aspect of the deck and it took me forever to cut the 4th force of will. However, once school slows down I will definitely post results from my local meta. I am always split on esper because I always want to control, but with so many good creatures to use and spells it's hard to just go one route. I hate deathblade with a passion, but I feel like DRS and TNN need to be together in a shell like this once TNN new flavor runs off. Esper has always had great matches against almost everything aside from Turbo Eldrazi or Scapeshift and other random decks. I like the direction we are both going and DRS gives us even more in the late game as an ult. win con. I might drop the vindicate add another TNN, but I am unsure about that. It is always nice to remove anything. I also agree with the fourth Thoughtseize in your build. So many times I have IoK only yo not be able to grab EtW, Sneak Attack, Jace, etc. And with DRS to help the life loss we are in a much better position. I use to run a singleton counter spell in my list prior, and I am wondering if it has a place in here now. Hitting UU has never been a problem in the past.
I agree totally on your Geist comment. Geist was also SB for me and I only really brought it in vs. Jund and Miracles. I do like SolS, but I feel like Sofi does everything better. I would recommend SoFaF over SolS honesty. IMO SoFaF has been house in my SB and won so many matches against combo and midrange decks. Jace bounce their threat and swing at them so they pitch it. If I was going to any tourney I would have SoFaF in SB and Notion Thief as well. As for a SB, I know I want to do Canonist and Meddling Mage. I also always run a BEB and has been amazing every time I've needed it.
Sorry that I'm kinda rambling on. It's been month since I've had time to play or discuss anything and I'm getting all kinds of excited.
I've been doing pretty good against Stax (Geddon, to be exact). Just a few games but I feel good. A house against combo, as expected. Here's my board, it's changed quite a bit. Stax in metagame so I've got a couple sb slots dedicated to it. It's probably pretty necessary just from the few games (7x; lost one) I played. I abandoned RIP. It's not for this list. I knew it wasn't, but I had to try it to satisfy my curiosity. Anyway, new sideboard:
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Perish
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
I don't think I'm going to go with Surical Extractions, haven't tested Yard hate in the form of artifacts for quite a while, so I think I'm going to get reaquainted with the concept and see how that's playing out.
Also new:
-1 Vindicate
-1 Island
-1 Karakas
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Ponder
-In the maindeck to my 2K13 list above, which makes A. Ruins allow artifact gy-hate to be a a touch more desireable, also.
Looks like you guys have some celebrating to do.
I hope you aren't referring to Turtenwald's GP win with UWR Delver...Originally Posted by Imperial
Looks like you guys have some celebrating to do.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was kidding.Still, it might as well have been a Stoneblade variant...
Last edited by Imperial; 11-17-2013 at 10:10 PM.
when it comes to esper stoneblade, what is the best 3rd equipment?
the two most popular ideas seem to be either sword of feast and famine and sword of fire and ice.
with bug decks and storm as popular as they are, you want sword of feast and famine. but against decks with TNN and lightning bolt you want sword of fire and ice. with the amount of abrupt decay decks vs. lightning bolt and/or tnn decks being roughly even, what is the best 3rd equipment.
please explain why in your answer.
Note: in my post earlier i had accidentally written sword of light and shadow in place of sword of fire and ice. so the correct line is:
the two most popular ideas seem to be either sword of feast and famine or sword of fire and ice.
Last edited by drocker23; 02-13-2014 at 03:18 AM.
Sword of Feast and Famine used to be the main deck equipment (next to Batterskull). Then Jitte moved to the main deck, I think around the time it went Esper with Lingering Souls and Tom Martell won the GP. Then SoFF moved to the sideboard. It was very good against green decks, obviously, and there were more of those.
These days, Sword of Fire and Ice seems to be the preferred 3rd equipment, and is often maindeck. There are a few reasons:
- It's generally better against combo... increasing the clock with 2 more damage a turn and drawing you into more hate, versus letting them choose what to discard and you untapping your lands.
- It lets you swing a non-TNN, non-evasive guy through an opponent's TNN
- It can kill other creatures almost as well as Jitte can (while providing an impressive and evasive boon).
I'm currently running Jitte, Batterskull, and SoFI main, and a Manriki-Gusari in the sideboard, for rival SFM matches, especially those involving True-Name Nemeses.
I don't think I've ever seen a (tournament-level) Esper Stoneblade play Sword of Light and Shadow and I wouldn't recommend it. You don't really have enough creatures to get full value from it. Other Stoneforge decks like Deadguy Ale or Death and Taxes have played it before, but they tend to have a lot more creatures. At any rate, Deathrite Shaman hasn't been banned in Legacy, so the sword is still kind of limited in power.
A little frustrated with miracles lately, I am likely going to go back to Esper Blade control for a while. I've been working on developing a list I like, and will be playing it a few 1-5ks in training to play it GP Jersey. I'll post the list(s) later with a bit of explanation when I have some more time.
EDIT:
Below are the two lists I have been testing. I have not played either of them in anything bigger than a 1k, because at those events I have been playing miracles, but I have not missed a top 8 with Esper yet (although the sample size is small).
Back to Basics Esper:
21 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Back to Basics
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
2 Misdirection
---------------------------------------------------------
Traditional Martell Esper:
22 Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Notion Thief
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Misdirection
A few things to note:
- The B2B build is really an evolution of the deck meant to improve the GBx and delver matchups. It is much more of a reactive control deck than the traditional Martell build. The 4 ponders help facilitate this and allow you to consistently met land drops, but also find the 1-2 ofs that are crucial in certain matchups. If you dont like the 4 ponders, cut 2-4 for some combination of 1 fetches, 1-2 tops, 1 Judgment, 1 verdict, 1 souls.
- The B2B mana might look a bit odd, but it works great. MD you don't need black until much latter in the game lately, so you can safety get 2 plains, 2 island and cast all your spells but souls flashback. Postboard, you only really bring in thoughtseizes against decks where getting non-basics is not such a big deal and the other black spells are so much upside getting non-basics is no big deal.
- I am not sure one build is actually better than the other. Both have merits in different metas. B2B has more swingy matchups but stronger game 1s against a lot of decks. The traditional esper is less polarized and tends to be in better shape in post board games, but does have some trouble with grindy BGx midrange decks if you don't devote some serious SB hate to them.
- The 3 Fow MD, 2 Misdirection SB, and the venser are just something I have been testing lately in an effort to improve the GBx matchups but not open myself up too much to other archtypes. Hymn, visions and, to a less extent, decay are really annoying. This is one of the few things about the deck I am not confident with yet. I do like only having 3 FoW MD with this deck though. Counterspell is just so much a lot of the time.
- No true names. Ive tried true name in this deck and hes just meh. Yes, sometimes he runs away with games. But most the time he just feels out of place in what is otherwise a control deck. Every time I see him in esper I cannot help but want to be also running wastelands, dazes, deathrites, etc to capitalize on TNN aggressive nature. For a real control deck like esper, souls just does the job better.
------------------------
Einherjer, I respect your work on miracles a lot and if you want any help developing Esper I'll help however I can, and would gladly appreciate any help in return.
Last edited by TheArchitect; 09-14-2014 at 10:48 PM.
Einherjer, I am pretty experienced in the Deathblade version, would be interested in joining your taskforce if you want inputs from a player piloting the crazy little shaman, I think i should be able to provide some input to Esperblade too.
-jedi
I have about 2 years of playing esper stone blade. I actually just sleeved the deck up last week as I was missing playing that deck.
i am curious where you got your list from Tom Martell. because if you read the article Shaheen Soorani wrote regarding his experience at the Invitational recently, you would have read in the comment section that Tom Martell commented and said his list was 2 cards different main deck from the list posted by Soorani in the article, and that his sideboard was different. Your list by Tom Martell does not reflect that information. And honestly I think you should be comparing Tom Martell's list to Soorani's list not Joe Bernal's. Joe Bernal had a cool idea, whatever. I think the main issue of the deck is how many copies of lingering souls to play, whether or not Intuition is worth the spot in the deck still, and what the sideboard should look like. Obviously everything else stays pretty much the same. the creatures don't really change. the land base shouldn't really change that much either. although the ratio of basics/duals/fetches is something to be evaluated as well. Honestly Tom Martell is great player and all but personally I feel like Shaheen Soorani is to Esper Stoneblade as Joe Lossett is to UW Miracles. Here are the two decklists I am currently looking at for compare and contrast.
Shaheen Soorani Esper Stoneblade
Creatures (8)
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
Spells (27)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
1 Intuition
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Notion Thief
2 Engineered Plague
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Perish
There is Soorani's decklist. Now read what Tom Martell wrote in the comment section of the article regarding the decklist and sideboard.
Tom Martell
"My current list is 2 cards off in the main deck: -1 Tundra +1 Plains, -1 Intuition +1 Spell Pierce. I think Lingering Souls is a lot better than True Name in this deck."
His follow up post reads as follows:
My sideboard fwiw:
1 Disenchant (might switch to Council's Judgment)
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Meddling Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
Also Matt Sperling asked "how is the miracles matchup" which he replies with "Not great. I've stopped playing the deck online as its 30%+ miracles, but I can't imagine IRL its a big problem."
So now after reading these posts I think you need to evaluate the presence of Intuition as a card/combo/engine or if you should follow a more traditional list like Tom Martell's. Is the extra plains worth it? Also something else to keep in mind is the lack of sideboarding options Soorani's decklist has against a wide array of matchups. Tom Martell's list might also be fine tuned for the online metagame which may not be entirely ideal when looking at a local meta or starcity open series meta. So I'd love to hear your comments on it all now.
Can someone please tell me what the FWIW stands for?
Also this list comes from Reid Duke back in late 2013. yes it is a true-name list not a lingering souls list but it's still worth looking at as far as fine tuning the deck for today.
Creatures (10)
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
Spells (24)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 Humility
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
Interested to replay esper too, and put some work into it (actually resleeved a version of it). I have about 1 year with esper specifically, and I played all other versions of stoneblade too (uw, uwr, bant) in the past.
For what it's worth.
This is going to be really interesting. I think Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time can be used really effectively here.
Drocker, I actually meant Vidi's list. Calling it Martells was just a brain fart. All I really meant was that it was a more traditional esper list, very similar to what people were playing 2 years ago and very distinguished from deathblade or anything with back to basics.
The deck definitely can have a good matchup against miracles. Souls helps a lot, but having more cards like clique, needle, notion thief, actual counterspell help a lot too. Martells SB is very light on cards that are good vs miracles.
Would Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek be worth considering in the Lingering Souls/Intuition slots?
Pros:
-Neither card can be exiled with Deathrite.
-Stoneforge can search up the Sword.
-Foundry can pitch to Force if needed.
-The life gain can be relevant with Burn becoming more popular.
-Hard for Miracles to deal with once established.
Cons:
-Requires 2 cards to work, which is a fairly large downside.
Just a thought since I haven't played the deck (yet) and it seems like it would work well with the board wipes.
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