'Final Fantasy' (via FFVI Espers) by me:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tombstalker
2 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
[could also be -2 stp +2 vindicate]
Basically just smashing SFM into Team America, which improves the aggro matchup quite well. TA has little to no problems against most forms of control or combo. You of course fold to a resolved Blood Moon or similar, but that is the price you pay for playing a three color tempo deck. Stifle and Thoughtseize (in the SB) is a house against other SFM decks, and just good in general right now. Perish also deals with Bant, Maverick, and NO-RUG, which were pretty difficult for the UW Stoneforge decks to deal with.
What do you all think? I know it looks clunky at first glance, but it's been testing fantastically for me so far.
Part of my point was that with a shuffle effect, Ponder and Preordain are effectively the same, but without one Preordain is significantly better. With an immediate shuffle effect Ponder has a slight edge since you get to see the third card but as I noted earlier, this advantage is small. However, without one, Ponder is much better since it clears the chaff from the top of one's library. We can make a more thorough analysis by breaking it into 4 cases based on how many of the top 3 cards are desirable. As this number increases, Ponder's value increases relative to that of Preordain since the extra information becomes more valuable than moving cards to the bottom. However, one is advantaged already in these situations since overall card quality is also increasing. It is when the top cards are undesirable that one must gain value out of cheap card selection or risk falling behind, and once again it is these situations where Preordain is much more valuable. Thus we can see that Preordain is not only more valuable relative to Ponder in the situations where it is good (as opposed to the relative value of Ponder to Preordain in the situations where Ponder is the superior card) but that these are the situations when it is important for the cheap cantrip to have value. The differences may be subtle but they can still be analyzed theoretically with some careful thought.Originally Posted by Hanni
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
I prefer seeing the 3rd card, since it gives me more information. Then, if all 3 cards are junk, I can shuffle the library and draw a random card. The random card may also be junk, but if I had cast Predordain, I'd still have gotten junk anyway. The fact that Preordain put the cards to bottom rather than shuffling them back in is largely irrelevant, since the % are minute in regards to an increase of seeing my other spells instead (especially with so many multiples of everything), and is reset completely after I crack a fetchland.
Theoreticals aren't going to convince me why Preordain is better. Ponder has served me very well, and I've become very good at using it. There's no harm whatsoever in running Preordain either, for those who would prefer it. Again, the differences are so minor that a theoretical argument is almost like arguing semantics.
Obviously Ponder is better when all three cards are blanks, but it's important to consider the other 7 scenarios.
1 2 3
Blank Good Good = Preordain
Blank Blank Good = Preordain
Blank Good Blank = Preordain
Good Blank Blank = Preordain
Good Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Good = Preordain
Good Good Good = Ponder
These evaluations change when a fetch land is used but careful play can be used even with Preordain to obtain the desirable cards which is the primary reason playing the card whose value is largely independent of having another card.
Given that you say you don't have the time to test each thoroughly, I would hope you rely on theoretical arguments to make the best decision rather than simply dismiss them is inadequate. You in fact rely on one to stay with Ponder when you state that the differences are small enough to not matter. The fact that Ponder has been good for you is irrelevant, as it does not speak to the value of Preordain relative to Ponder. Card choices such as these are simply not a matter of preference. One must be optimal in a given deck.
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
You forget about sfm and Dark Confidant. Ponder becomes better compared to preordain with those two cards. Your examples are also too simplified. Sometimes your cards are more like Blank Semi-Good Blank and then ponder becomes much better than preordain. If the game will end in two turns, then ponder is also better than preordain, and sometimes the order of the two good cards is important and then again ponder becomes better.
In a deck like this with 12 shuffle effects and Dark Confidant I will play ponder.
Does anyone have a good idea of how to beat landstill with this deck? I have played around 6 matches and lost everyone of them and the games wasn't even close. I have 2 Needles, 1 Revoker and 3 Spell Pierce in my sideboard. I removed the 4 dazes from the maindeck to play the 3rd and 4th sfm and an extra equipment and a land. I know daze is good against them, but are they good enough to make this matchup winnable?
My problem with daze is that you cant really afford to play it before turn two and then the good players will be able to play around it if they know you have it in your deck.
I'm going to have to agree here. 12 shuffle effects is more than enough now that I'm only playing 3 Ponder, and Ponder is alot better at reducing lifeloss with an active Dark Confidant, which can be incredibly important in some games. Ponder also potentially digs 1 card deeper, when you absolutely have to find a specific out to a situation immediately. Overall, I'm going to stick with Ponder for now. However, like I said, for those who choose to play Preordain over Ponder, the differences are extremely minor, so go for it.You forget about sfm and Dark Confidant. Ponder becomes better compared to preordain with those two cards. Your examples are also too simplified. Sometimes your cards are more like Blank Semi-Good Blank and then ponder becomes much better than preordain. If the game will end in two turns, then ponder is also better than preordain, and sometimes the order of the two good cards is important and then again ponder becomes better.
In a deck like this with 12 shuffle effects and Dark Confidant I will play ponder.
Well, first of all, it depends on your build, as well as the build of Landstill. Are we talking U/W/x Landstill, or U/B/g/x Landstill? I cannot really give direct answers without knowing this information.Does anyone have a good idea of how to beat landstill with this deck? I have played around 6 matches and lost everyone of them and the games wasn't even close. I have 2 Needles, 1 Revoker and 3 Spell Pierce in my sideboard. I removed the 4 dazes from the maindeck to play the 3rd and 4th sfm and an extra equipment and a land. I know daze is good against them, but are they good enough to make this matchup winnable?
My problem with daze is that you cant really afford to play it before turn two and then the good players will be able to play around it if they know you have it in your deck.
Secondly, while Landstill isn't an easy matchup, it should still be winnable.
With the build I posted, the key is in dominating the stack in the early game, resolving and protecting a few creatures. Mother of Runes can shut off their spot removal, and if you can keep Dark Confidant on the board for a few turns, it's not impossible to overwhelm them with card advantage early. Mental Misstep is fantastic at countering Swords to Plowshares/Innocent Blood (build depending), Spell Snare, and opposing Mental Missteps. They run alot of more expensive spells, and so Daze is actually really good in this matchup. Tidehollow Sculler is absolutely fantastic, and Batterskull can be very difficult for them to handle.
Postboard, we have a wide assortment of tools against them. Spell Pierce is obviously very good in this matchup, as is Pithing Needle. Needle on Deed/EE shuts of their sweeper (again, build depending), which leaves them with spot removal. Mother of Runes + Pithing Needle is a really strong soft-lock. Vindicate and Aura of Silence are also a possible sideboard options, depending on their build.
To really go into any more detail than this, I would need to know what your list looks like, and what type of Landstill you're talking about. In addition to knowing whether you're talking about U/W/x or U/B/g/x, it would also help to tell me what sort of spells you're seeing from the deck, since there are various different ways to build either of those Landstill decks, which also affects play decisions (like for example, is U/W/x running EE, WoG, Shackles, etc... and is U/B/g/x running Innocent Bloods or Ghastly Demise and Go for the Throat, etc...).
My list is similar to yours except -4 Daze, +1 SoFF, +1 Clique, +1 Ponder, +1 land. I think about playing a couple of dazes, but I will not run less than 4 Ponder.
The landstill list people play in my meta is close to the list LSV and PV played at Providence
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Island
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [B] Counterspell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [NPH] Dismember
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
I don’t like MoR that much because she does not put a pressure on my opponent alone and they just play innocent blood, edict or deed and kill her if she is able to stay for a turn. Maybe I am wrong with this, but when they only have 3 removal spells that target my creatures along with jace, then I don’t think she is good enough in game 2 and 3.
That list has 2 Edict-effects and 3 spot removal spells. If you stick a Pithing Needle on Deed, they literally only have two spells in their deck that they can use to remove your creatures if you have an active Mother of Runes, which sounds like a good deal to me.
However, they are probably bringing in that additional removal in the sideboard. Not a big deal though, the gameplan doesn't change much. If you can stick a Pithing Needle against that deck, you should be able to win the matchup pretty easily.
I'd also highly recommend running Daze maindeck. Even without Needle, all of their removal is pretty slow. You should be able to get a threat or two to stick initially, and since all of the creatures we run provide card advantage, you should be able to get ahead early. Tempo is key to winning this matchup. If you can keep a Dark Confidant around for even just a few turns, it should put you far enough to close the game out. Again, Spell Pierce postboard is also really good.
I'm quite aware of Mystic and Bob, I just didn't find them relevant. A deck with an average CMC of 1.3 (using the list at the beginning of the thread), Batterskull, and Jitte should not need the 3rd card off Ponder to save life. Also, any situation where one would Ponder into Stoneforge, you may simply cast Stoneforge first and then Preordain. It's also important to note that Preordain is much better on turn 1.
@Ursus: I disagree with your contention that my evaluations were overly simplistic. One may classify any card as a "blank" or "non-blank" by answering the question, "Do I want to draw this card?"
Ultimately it is very difficult to quantify the minor differences between the two cards, and quite easy to contrive situations in which one is better than the other. Since this is clear, it seems to me to be better to run the abstractly better card, which is undoubtedly Preordain.
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
The deck plays 5 cards with cmc 5. I can insure you that there can be situations were the card you want to flip is a land. Even if you do not need any more lands in play.
Sfm can also be one of the top three cards of your library. Then you play your cantrip before sfm and ponder will be better than preordain.
If i play my cantrip on turn one it is properly because I need a land or have too many in my hand. In the first situation ponder lets me see one more card and in the second situation one of my lands in hand is properly a fetchland. In both situation ponder is better.
It looks like we have different views of how to get most out of our cantrips. I don't think we will come to an agreement of this one. It is possible that preordain works better for you, but my problem with your question is that there are some cards which are better for you than others and the way you compare the cantrips does not take care of that. It is possible that StP would be a nice draw because it takes care of the opponents tarmogoyf, but a sfm will take care of that too along with the next goyf he could play and even put him on a clock before he drops a Natural Order.
@Hanni-> What would you board out against landstill then? We both have 6 cards we want to bring in against them (spell pierce and needle effects). We can board out a couple of StP, but Mishra's Factory is bigger than all our creatures when they do not carry an equipment (only Clique have evasion) so I properly want 1 or 2 to get rid of the factories.
I double post.
Sorry
Last edited by Pingu; 07-18-2011 at 06:23 AM. Reason: Double post
I put this list in DTB Blade Control, but its real home is here.
3 Tombstalker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Island
Sb:
3 Bitterblossom
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
It plays like the first Team America decks disrupting almost eyerything, the diference is white replacing green (stoneforge crushes goyf).
Strange Cards:
The single island and blue elemental blast are there for The Patriot magus/blood moon and also helps against lavamancer.
The 4 extirpate are there for jacestill matchup, if my disruption package is countered/ineffective (it happens) they crush me with wasteland/loam lock, it also helps against dredge and combo decks in general.
Matchups:
The deck is built to deal with semi-mirrors, so matchups like team america, patriot, jacestill and other stoneforge/tarmogoyf deck variances this deck as an edge, it's very dificult to put the percentages because the matches are very skill intensive, but with the tests that i've done this deck can completely wreck their game plan, stifle, wasteland, hymn and daze are very strong against these kinda of decks.
Maverick, Zoo and NO decks are dificult but very far from winnable, especially after sideboard with Perish dealing with almost everything (knight, qasaly and progenitus), choke was never a problem even if hits play, the deck as such a low curve that you can continue playing the cards, daze also helps by bouncing something.
The main problem that i'm having is against merfolks, if batterskul comes out i usually win, but this almost never happen, maybe i'm playing bad, what do you recomend to do?
An update from the last time i posted, i tested last week against Junk and NO Bant, 15 games with 3 rounds for sb testing (15 games each), against bant i only lost 1 game, against junk i lost 4 games.
The bitterblossom are underperforming, they only shine in jacestill matchup, i believe i should change them into something more strong against merfolks, what do you recomend?
Thank you
Tombstalker seems weak vs Merfolk with most lists running 3-4 dismember in their 75. Vs fish save you counters to protect/force through batterskull and mystic because they will win all day every day. Consider playing smother. Try to keep lord of atlantis off the board. Maybe play engineered explosives and possibly even academy ruins. They have trouble dealing with CA so bob and Jace really do work. Stifling wastes tends to be the best use of your stifles but hitting their vials upkeep trigger can be a huge tempo swing especially if you hit the one going from 1 to 2. Try something like cutting stalkers for bobs and hymns for the 4th, 2 jaces, and maybe an EE. Hymn is pretty weak right now anyways and one of the major reasons why team America is doing poorly.
Pingu, my list at the top of this this page is verrry similar to yours. I would probably cut the swords of x and y from the list, because you have such a low threat density that they will rarely be as useful as just fetching a batterskull.
For the SB, I've been running this with some good success:
3 engineered explosives
3 thoughtseize (could maybe be a spell pierce or two)
3 tormod's crypt/relic (could be something else if meta has no gy decks)
2 oblivion ring
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 perish
For Merfolk you cut the fow and maybe a Stifle or two to bring in the explosives and O ring. (I'm also running 4 stp main). This is typically enough removal to hold them off until you can establish a batterskull for the win.
Would it be unreasonable to cut the fetches down from ten to eight and put in 2 jace?
Thank you all for your suggestions,
Rupus
When i start playing this deck i started with a slower version very similiar to Blade Control in DTB, i really did not like it, i'm not saying that is bad but i prefer this kind of deck, always disrupting an oponent from everywhere (lands, hand and counters/removal) and dropping a fast/strong kill condition, so almost all of your suggestions goes against this. I also strongly believe that team america is doing poorly but not because of hymn being bad right now is because goyf is outclassed by stoneforge. As i said in my post before, bitterblossom is underperforming so i'll change it for smother or edict (its nice to catch progenitus or emrakul), wich do you think its better?
wcm8
The sword is making wonders for me, in my metagame there's lots of zoo, bant and junk and this sword equiped in a batterskull is to sick to let it pass, sometimes batterskull its not big enough and its overrun by kotr o even a goyf that sticks the table. For the merfolks match, as i said before i'll exchange the bitterblossom for smother/edict (wich do you prefer?) having post sideboard 7 spot removal and hoping that will be enough.
Thank you again
Tried this list at a local -1 Scrub, -1 StP, -1 Ponder; +2 Clique, +1 Swamp. Going 0-2 drop, got beat out by Team America and Death and Taxes. TA I guess is more or less mirror match, some of that may have been being outplayed, I think my opponent's list was better tuned than mine perhaps as well (miser Spell Snare, Sylvan Library, sb Misdirections all served well in the match). For the DnT match up Phyrexian Revoker on SFM and lots of basics are hard to disrupt/get ahead of.
I felt like I wanted Spell Snare in the deck someplace. Daze is rough with the SFM package because you don't want to be setting your mana back really. Clique ended up being awful, so I'd probably start by dropping the two of those and a Daze for StP #4 again and 2x Spell Snare
Sorry to hear the deck didn't work out for you. Tempo mirrors are very dependent on skill, draws, and to some extent luck (who goes first, who gets more stifle/wastelands, who lands the first uncontested threat...) A lot of it isn't completely in your control, and FWIW traditional TA is probably ever so slightly better in the 'mirror'..
DnT isn't that surprising of a loss, as midrange disruptive decks like it or Rock can be pretty difficult for tempo strategies.
I hope this experience isn't too discouraging for you, I think the deck has potential, and some tweaks may be necessary. Snare isn't a bad idea given the current meta revolving a lot around 2-drops right now. Perhaps the SB especially could use some rearranging. In any case, I intend on bringing the list with me to the weekly local, and also maybe giving it a go at the SCG open at the end of the month.
Oh yea didn't mean to conclude it was a bad list. Just that it didn't work for the couple match ups I faced. I used the following for a SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish (Virtue's Ruin is probably better)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Dark Blast (would probably up this - another answer to Revoker, Mother of Runes, Heirarch, Lackey)
1 Swords to Plowshares (moving back to main)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Plague
1 Energy Flux
1 Ethersworn Canonist
The reason I think hymn is bad in thus meta is because the slower control decks are all packing enough CA that it tends to be mitigated before you can win. I still think bob and/or Jace is something to seriously consider, even most team America lists have moved towards including one or both. Smother vs edict is a tough call because they do very different things but I would lean towards smother. I prefer using metamorph (or maybe even that new illusion) to combat progenitus, emrakul, and friends. Another idea to consider is sinkhole over hymn. Once upon a team nitewolf (the guy who made TA) argued vehemently that it was better than hymn because it fit with the mana disruption of waste/stifle better. One more thing to consider is throwing an armageddon or 2 in there for a 4 mana I win card. I played it as a 2 of in UW tempo before and never lost to a control deck after resolving one. It's probably too cute here but something to think about nonetheless.
I think playing snare over daze might be a good call. Daze works so well with TA because they can play a goyf off 2 lands then daze without any problem whereas mystic and equipment can become pretty mana intensive. Not to mention even if you play a misers daze they are forced to play around it. You could even mind game people and "accidentally" flip it over before the match.
@theross
It's interesting to reexamine ponder vs preordain with an immediate shuffle effect. For reference:
No shuffle
Now with a shuffle:Blank Good Good = Preordain
Blank Blank Good = Preordain
Blank Good Blank = Preordain
Good Blank Blank = Preordain
Good Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Good = Preordain
Good Good Good = Ponder
Blank Good Good = Even
Blank Blank Good = Ponder
Blank Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Blank = Ponder
Good Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Good = Even
Good Good Good = Ponder
It's worth noting that the even ones aren't perfectly even because they both have benefits and disadvantages but I think they end up about even. Ponder give you more information but there's the potential that the chaff gets shuffled to the top again. Preordain removes the chaff but give you less info. Plus as soon as you shuffle that benefit is gone. Overall though I think personal preference is really the biggest deciding factor.
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