I only really bring it up to point out that once you start building around Tezzeret, there is a slippery slope not far off. Not to say I don't think that we couldn't find a midground here with both UW Blade Control elements as well as Tezzeret as an alternate line of attack, its just that we need to compare the value of Tezz to something comparable like Jace - how far do we have to go to make Tezz worth it over something arguably more flexible and powerful (Jace)? I'm suggesting that that line might be too far down the slippery slope, it might be better to maximize synergy for Tezz in the style of Tezzerator.Originally Posted by tescrin
If Thopter is viable, it should be good enough by itself as an alternate line of attack without support like Tezz, and if it is (and I believe it has the potential), then design principles lead to cutting the fat and making it as streamlined as possible.
Basically what I see here is a UW Blade Control with the ability to go for a "combo" finish against the super grindy decks (that probably won't have outs G1).
OFC, I should just shut up and start testing myself ;)
---
@solidbass - I would think Thopters have a lot of value in the UR MU as a way to claw back out of the danger zone once the initial assault has been weathered - the life gain pulls you out of burn range and the tokens match up nicely vs those from Young Pyromancer.
I'm interested to see if/how you guys find room for Strix; it does seem quite good, although it also seems slow to me. I'm personally leaning towards more Wrath effects to solve the creature problem... Deluge does seem pretty awesome, cementing us in the B splash, but then again more Verdict lets us stick pretty much straight UW
@ MrShine I think you're right about Tezzeret. Even if he is great and there is a midway point between blade and Tezzereter I'm not sure that's what the goal should be.
Thoptors seems like a strong alternate path for UWb Stoneblade to take. I'm very interested to see how it will do in more in testing considering how well it's done in one of my weaker matchups; Jund. I'm really digging the idea of Baleful Strixs so I'm thinking I'll add 2 for starters. Not sure exactly what to cut, counterspells and/or V, Clique? By adding them I suppose I'm giving up some points to combo but that's what the board is for right? Toxic Deluge will definitely merit some testing I'll probably just do a 1 for 1 swap with Supreme Verdict.
I'm wondering what the SB should look like? Should it be more protect the king type approach? Or more controlly with as many answers to all decks as possible? I'm "newish" to legacy so I wasn't around when Thoptors was a thing so SBing is a bit of a mystery.
@ Tescrin I haven't been a fan of discard in the main as of late due to TC n such. However, since this the brewing stage it's a bit up in the air if a tap out approach vs a reactive approach is more appropriate. I personally like the reactive role since it's been working for me so far.
What are peoples' take on Dig Through Time vs Treasure Cruise in an Esper control shell?
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@Nevilshute
As a long time esper player, you will find me prefering to play as few main phase spell as possible, prefering to keep open af often as possible in opponents turn.
DTT is in my oppinion favored, as a 2 of 3 off. It helps draw the right cards opposed to TC drawing 3 randoms from top and allows you to play more magic in opponents turn.
The powerlevel of esper is really high. But also it is really just a stack of really good cards, that just are so good it makes a deck on its own more or less... Issue is you can draw the wrong half of the deck against aggro or the other half against control basically. DTT helps migate this, and helps find the right, powerfull cards.
I have a preference for flash dudes, and even with DTT i would play propably 1-2 snaps and of course at least 2 cliques, and DTT fits this concept beautifully
I think it really depends on your build. If you have more Flash guys and counter-magic, then DDT is probably better since you can leave mana open and EOT it or a man, depending on what you need.
If your build is more like a Shaheen Soorani style of more Sorcery-speed, bomb-type plays, I think Cruise might actually be better. It lets you restock your hand more, since this style I find is more about forcing them to answer your bombs, or grinding them down until they can't answer something.
When I had time to test, I was experimenting with 1-2 Darkblast in the 75 and found results to be, at least initially, positive. Then again, I was still fitting in a few Lingering Souls, but since I haven't had much time to play, I am not sure how this build is suited to the more current meta.
Last edited by H; 01-07-2015 at 09:21 AM. Reason: The less pretend words, the better...
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I've been over at the DGA thread a bit since I'm working from more of a WB direction, though I'm still finding the right base. I went 2-0-2 with the more "Discard" version. I had tried Arena (since I was centered on black and sdematt was recommending it) but was unhappy with it. With the blue splash I may Cruise, but I was running Stalker, so it means more deck-shifting. I'm a bit inbetween the decks since they don't splash blue and my deck is so non-blue; but I figure I'd let you know since there was a little interest/activity.
I think cruise, as mentioned in the above post, is better with Discard than reactionary spells. Discard/Removal + Lily fuels your grave proactively where reactionary spells are contingent upon your opponent doing things. TS is also quite good at nabbing opposing cruises (which is one of the reasons I've been so happy with discard still.) Discard being the less-conditional of the spells as well makes it good for hitting Delver's low removal/low threat count and augmenting the rest of your hand. That's just IMO though.
hope we can bring this thread back alive! Any thought on the TC ban?
I will bring my deck deck to a tournament this weekend. Gonna post a list tomorrow. It feels like esperblade will be more favorable in the new(old...) meta, am i right?
I also had the luck to get a foil flooded strand in a booster i won. I dont need it and thinking about trading it for a liliana or a pair of flusterstorm. Any suggestions?
Maybe this post is kind of useless without my list, but im to tired and my kid i sleeping so i would be stupid of me to shuffle around with my cards...
forgot that i had the list online... well here it is;
Land (21)
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Darkblast
2x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery (9)
2x Lingering Souls
3x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
Creature (9)
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Council's Judgment
1x Disenchant
1x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Meddling Mage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Zealous Persecution
Im thinking about Lilly instead of darkblast...
This is definitely going to come back, especially since we still get to play with DTT! Seems to me a 'flash' based version (as H puts it) is the direction to go in to best synergize with Dig. Snapcasters, Clique, good ol' Counterspell, and Digs to find Verdicts/Deluge when you need them.
@ trolliver - Darkblast was good pre-ban but Deathrite is going to come back in a big way... I thought Deluge was sweet in the pre-Cruise meta (look at the success of Shardless BUG), and I would definitely think about turning that 'blast into at least 1 more Deluge. And I would play at least 3 Meddling Mage in the board - guy is just nuts and you always want him in your opener vs combo, not to mention he's really good in multiples too. Mage is actually most of the reason I like UWx Blade as an archetype these days.
I'm trying something similar. I like maxing out on 4 ponder and running a 3 DTT - 1J TMS split. This fills up the graveyard a little faster while digging for answers to the questions presented. I also like that DTT makes the deck even more 'toolbox' oriented than before. I don't really like the nombo between DTT and lingering souls/ snap caster but the cards are obviously powerful. I think going down to 2 snap caster is correct but I think True Name Nemesis is going to be good again and would rather play those instead of lingering souls.
Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
3x Dig Through Time
3x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Spell Pierce
Sorcery (10)
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Council's Judgment
Creature (9)
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
1x Force of Will
1x Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
2x Meddling Mage
1x Fluster Storm
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Pithing Needle
1x Path to Exile
1x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Supreme Verdict
I'm trying this list out first to see how powerful dig through time really is in a stone blade shell. 2 Dig through time seems like a more reasonable number in the long run.
I used to run 2 rest in peace in the board that would come in handy for graveyard match ups as well as RUG delver and Jund (a matchup I struggle with). I would usually cut snap casters for them and it worked out will. Because this list is running DTT, I feel its best to switch to another form of graveyard hate like surgical (which is good with snap caster). It makes my Jund/ dredge match ups a little worse but life goes on. I could very easily be wrong about supreme verdict.. Deluge might just be better. I also want to fit one counter spell in the list like traditional lists. Maybe cut a ponder?
The sideboard definitely has a lot of flexibility. I think 3 force in the main will be acceptable again now that Cruise is banned.
Thoughts?
I agree... Meddling Mage is the main reason for liking UW stone blade decks too. Its such a powerful/ flexible sideboard card and can come in in so many match ups... I really hope traditional esper makes a resurgence... not death blade crap. I hate getting punished for such greedy mana bases...
I took the (very experimental) deck below to a local and went 2-0-2, drawing with Reanimator (slow play..), Miracles (slow play..), beating Miracles and Burn. I played an off-the-record match with a third miracles guy and 2-0'd him as well.
I brewed the below specifically out of my hatred for Miracles and slowly growing hatred for D&T and the meta-call was real. The SoLaS is to deal with the influx of D&T and Maverick I'm experiencing and the fact that TNN can't hold a candle to Thopters
There's a lot wrong with the below, especially the sideboard; but this is how we learn:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
Side:
1 Blind Obedience
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kor Sanctifiers
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Wasteland
The deck felt quite smooth and I went 5-1 in games with Miracles players; so the hate is real. Removing DRS and adding any of the above should push it even further lopsided, though I'm a bit concerned about getting stable against Delver.
My current thinking is:
+1 Basic, +1 Strand, +1 Tundra; [-2 Waste, -1 Bayou]
+1 Thopter Foundry, +3 Baleful Strix (hedge against Delver; Foundry and Strix are both fantastic here)
-1 Sideboard, +1 not-garbage sideboard
Noteable design interactions:
-Sculler + Foundry can become a 1/1 Flying Thoughtseize.
-Revoker + Liliana is a lockout against S&T
-Top + Tezz can be used to guarantee hits on his +1 if needed.
-Lily +1 and Sword of the Meek
I ran this yesterday for testing against Dredge, D&T, Reanimator, and BUG Delver
Main Deck:
2 Kor Sanctifiers
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
2 Abolish
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce
Reanimator: Difficulties in Game-1s as one might imagine. 0-2 since both practices were G1 (and he had decent draws each game)
D&T: 3-2 preboard. I think the SoLaS I used to have would be good; but it's not the breaking point. The match teeters on the edge of how well your early game develops and if you can get unanswered Thopters/Jitte.
Dredge: 2-0 (only postboard) The current side is very strong. No preboard since we know he's heavily favored.
BUG Delver: 2-4 preboard (and probably postboard.) The disruption here is just a bit too much since Goyf is fed by 'Walkers and Artifacts too easily; making the clock too hard to fend off while they Decay something here and Hymn you there.
Thoughts:
-Batterskull isn't necessary with Tezz and equips. It's so rare to get it down and it was relevant on only a single situation (against Dredge.) SoLaS blocks all removal and prohibits being blocked by decks that I need the extra game against
-4/4/1 Was nice. Thopter combo was reliable. Triple Foundry/SFM never came up.
-Sanctifiers seem too rare and weak to run mained
-Delver issues imply that I need Strixes. The Artifact + Blue + 1/1 synergies add up to something that's too obvious and good to pass up.
-If adding Strixes (and requiring good openers) I don't need/want SDT for the Tezz interaction; it makes sense to go to Ponders now.
-SFM can probably be 3x since it's not required to win MUs and is low impact early.
Changes:
-1 SFM, -2 Kor, +3 Strix
-2 SDT, -1 Fetch, +3 Ponder
The extra 5-6 actual "draw" effects should make the land drop reliable enough.
Played the below 3-1 tonight (tied 3rd) (22 players), losing to Shardless BUG (but it was a back and forth grind all three games.)
Beat BUG Control, Jund-Fit, and Belcher, which are all meh-matchups I think
3 Baleful Strix
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ponder
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
2 Abolish
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce
Shardless (1-2) - G1 I get him with giant guys off of Tezz, G2 and G3 are back and forth grind fests but after enough Visions and Goyfs I can't keep up. G1 I had the combo and I think G2/G3 I couldn't quite get it together because I was always teetering.
BUG Control (1-0) - Took a couple turns to figure out what exactly it was, but he lands Lily and Koira and they last most of the game while we grind. He Deeds me a time or two and I keep hanging in there with minor value out of Thopter and Tezz drawing me cards. I end up running out of Foundries and have a 6/7 Strix on the board, so I start swinging and between chumps and removal I get there while he digs like crazy and 9/9 Krakens are pouring into his board. We finish as turns are called. This game was teetering on the edge one way or the other the whole time. There was a turn he happened to draw Deed the exact turn after I assemble the combo; brutal and fun.
Jund-Fit (2-0) - This was better than expected, simply because I played around his engines and discarded his bombs before he could get to them. I stuck Revoker on Deed when I had the combo up and he couldn't do much about it before the clock that 4-8 thopters a turn got him.
Belcher (2-1) - I put him on Storm as I feel like I've played him once before, but I don't have Force Main and he's acting very "fair deck" kinda guy. I don't have interaction and die T1. The other two games are FoW followed by cantrips -> Revoker and Sculler and Revoker->SFM. Between discard and Spierces and Forces the initial FoW basically gets there. Glad I had it! I will say, G2 he waited a turn or two to go off and I'm glad I know the deck just well enough to FoW the right thing (Wish/Belcher.) I probably would've been eaten by Goblins had he had that instead.
A set of very difficult matches since the first three can all go just as big/grindy and two of them run maindeck Deeds! The fact I slogged through multiple Deeds, walkers everywhere, and ground against 9/9s, Thragtusks, and other nonsense is a testament to how powerful Tezz/Thopter combo really is. The amount of hate post-board for combo seems adequate. (4 discard, 3 sculler, 3 lily, 3 pierce, 4 FoW, 4 Revoker, random gravehate/abolish) and the deck has continued to generally test well. I can probably swap a scrubland or a random cards for Academy Ruins; it's obnoxious running out of Foundries. The Ensnaring Bridge was very hit and miss, it's probably too slow for the Goyf decks (which can answer it anyway) and it's probably not reliable enough against grindy problem decks as a singleton, so it may just become a Strix.
SoLaS was terrible today for obvious reasons. I think I'll move to SoFaI since it's application against Shardless is strong and it's just good in general. SoLaS just feels meh for MUs that I can probably just fly over.
Hope someone gives a damn about this thread again soon :P
Why did everyone stop playing esper? Are blasts that big of a deal? Meddling mage is the strongest when you can inquisition turn 1 and I feel that lingering souls is great in this metagame.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Nah, esperblade (as in the jace control deck esper) has it's thread in bladecontrol.
This forgotten deck just got a huge upgrade...
Kaldra Compleat {7}
Legendary Artifact — Equipment
Living Weapon
Indestructible
Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."
Equip {7}
Brainstorm and Jace allowing you to fetch this card back into your deck when drawn is a very nice advantage to Esperblade
Pairing it with Thoughtseize/FoW/Misdirection/Daze to protect Stoneforge until it can drop this down is going to do some damage.
This forgotten deck just got a huge upgrade...
Kaldra Compleat {7}
Legendary Artifact — Equipment
Living Weapon
Indestructible
Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."
Equip {7}
Brainstorm and Jace allowing you to fetch this card back into your deck when drawn is a very nice advantage for Esperblade
Pairing it with Thoughtseize/FoW/Misdirection/Daze to protect Stoneforge until it can drop this down is going to do some damage.
I dunno man. That 3 mana to return the card is invaluable. And that life gain from Batterskull is very very useful. STP is still a thing
I would play both. Grab batterskull against control matchups. Grab this vs aggro/combo matchups. Use Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle them back in when drawn.
...And Teferi, Jace, Brazen, Karn. About the only thing this was going to be good against was Kcomm....which now plays Brazen and has always had Jace bounce, and can effortlessly kill this with Angrath's Rampage sacrifice clause.
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