I'm biased as the creator of the list, but that list did everything I wanted and more. I did a quick tournament report in the Team America thread, if you want me to repost it, I will. For now, here's a link Basically, the logic behind this deck was the Friday before the event i decided Team America with SFM and StP would just be too much fun. So I did it with no testing before the event, and it just dominated. I could of done better if i wasn't a noob with batterskull, but I'm still happy with the list
The only things Im considering tweaking MD is swapping the sword for a jitte or maybe body and mind and maybe sending a FoW to the board for a 5th MD removal (such as vindicate). As for my recent board tweaks, I've completely cut GY hate in favor of +1 perish +1 eplague and +4 spell pierce. Dredge and reanimator are managable without the hate, and id rather have help in tribal / GW maverick match ups.
Sweet, thanks brother.Originally Posted by SpeakingofJager
On a note - the one thing I'm missing about green/TA is Pernicious Deed. I feel like the deck occasionally has trouble with large troops of critters (mainly regarding decks like GW/Junk/similar archetype packing 12-16 critters that all have utility) and could use a nice wipe effect.
I don't want to add any more removal as I've done that in my board to the effect of ghastly demises/edicts/etc - but I was thinking that maybe 1/2 MD EE's might do the trick. Possibly cut 1 ponder + X for em?
If you seriously want to find the next weakest card in the deck, id say its not ponder. Ponder 1 and 2 serve as your 5th and 6th brainstorm, and the extra gas can be important. I'm just snowballing ideas here, but if you were hellbent on finding room heres what i'd cut and in what order:
1) FoW number 4: I'd send it to the board. With MM, you'd still have 7 outs to that turn one vial, lackey or whatever else you're afraid of. The rest of the deck lends itself to beating combo and before their hate, a counter suite with 3 FoW, hymn and stifle should be able to get you there.
2) SFM number 4: I'd remove it completely, you're only ever going to realistically find 2 artifacts, number 3 acts as insurance incase someone stifles or counters the others, but you dont rely on this card. More often than not i find myself getting ther with stalker beats.
3) Daze number 3: A lot of lists manage off of 2 daze. I personally would hesitate to do this because after cutting one FoW, I'd be worried about bringing my counter suite down to 9, but daze is the next weakest target. After all, daze is sided out in a lot of game twos because it only takes one daze in game 1 to trip your opponent up for the match
4) Stifle number 4: Stifle can be MM'd, I'd hesitate to cut this card because I'm biased to stilfe. I've had matches in both the BuG variant of this list and my current where its just won me games. It's not always a good top deck, but it's rarely a dead card. And, well, stifle just beats hive mind. Nothing better than having your opponent lose because you stifle one or two triggers
After you cut those, if you still need room I have no idea what you're tyring to do with my list.
As for my thoughts on some of your suggestions, first Jace.
I run 20 lands in the deck, Jace is hard to support with 20 lands, seeing as 11 of them produce mana and all of them can be wasted. If you want to run jace successfully, you need to cut 4 cards to find room for 2 mana and the 2 Jace you want. i couldnt do it in the old BuG list and I can't find myself doing it in the esper build
Global removal:
Agreed, an army of dudes can be a problem and I'm trying to solve that with the massive amount of removal + plagues + perish in the board. I'll be honest, I've not really tested against junk, but i know in the GW match up, perish can be a back breaker. Its not a perfect answer, but I'm not convinced an EE would be perfect either. Personally, I'm trying to keep the maindeck pretty much where it's at, so if i were going to add EE, itd be in the board. But if you find it helpful, do let me know
I don't think, despite the prevalence of MM - I'd be happy cutting a stifle. Yes, it can still serve as a 1 for 1, but, as you said it is also in many games completely and utterly backbreaking.
I'm also not sure I myself would be comfortable cutting a daze as, well, its just a card I've always played - and always loved.
I might try and begin with cutting 1 Force for a fifth piece of removal and see if that shores anything up. The vindicates however, are going to stay in the board for now.
I guess my main question with this deck is whether we can run Bitterblossom, Bob, (and although unrelated in the loss of life department, the power of Hymn) in the current shell. Specifically, is the life loss generated by BB and Bob too much to overcome, especially with other high CMC cards like FoW and Batterskull present in the deck?
Looking at most of the lists that have placed with the u/w/b shell, a few have tried to implement those three cards (most notably Edgar Flores http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/16554) but consequently at the cost of no FoW; which is most likely the result of a lack of blue cards to fuel it and it's CMC.
I want to run Spellstutter Sprite too, especially with BB. The CA generated by some of these cards is so significant, but I just can't find a way to squeeze all of the pieces in... or if I do, it's at the cost of cards like Ponder which turn out to be lifesavers when you're dealing with Bob.
Flores' list attempts to be more proactive with its hand disruption rather than reactive, swapping 4 forces with the Thoughtseizes you see in his build. While some people can play something like this to great results I just simply have an issue leaving home with a deck running blue that lacks at least 3 FOW's in the maindeck.
I wouldn't be too concerned with lifeloss in bob and blossom as batterskull makes up for lost life very quickly. I've just seemed to prefer throwing a tombstalker at an opponent and making them deal with a 5/5 flyer than a dark confidant these days. Spell snare is prevalent again making both bob and blossom difficult to resolve as only a force of will can prevent it, and only a swords/dismember can remove it.
Flores' list seems to attempt to solve small problems as it encounters them, stripping them from an opponents hand or missteping a swords to plowshares - The list that Jager and I have been speaking about prefer to resolve a few bombs and throw hands at opponents to keep them moving. I by all means understand the power of bob but sometimes its fun to just close out a game with a 5/5 flyer for 2.
@SS Sprite - the card is awesome and in the right deck its a beating but I've too often found myself holding mana untapped and a card in my hand rather than having something I can play.
@ Honoluluicecaps, you present some interesting and powerful cards. I just dont feel like they'd belong in my stalker list (I'm going to call it Esper America for future reference). I can't speak for anything like Flores' list, as I've never played it, but I can tell you that it plays completely different than Esper America. So i'll just comment based on what I know. If this isn't what you wanted to hear, just ignore my post XD
Anyway here are my thoughts:
Bob
- First, he's great CA, but he just does not play nice with Tombstalker. If you run Bob, you almost need to cut your tombstalkers either completely or reduce their number. I'm not willing to do this because stalker is just a bad bad man.
- The second concern is that adding bob completely changes what you want to do with the deck. You can already see that because you start thinking about changing the stalkers immediately. Because he's slows down your deck, you're then inclined to MD Jace, which in itself isn't bad, its just not what Esper America does.
Spell Stutter Sprite
- My initial thoughts are just . . . meh. The card is only good in certain decks and I dont think this deck supports it. Daze allows you to gladly tap out on turn 2 and drop your SFM, Jitte, Hymn or if you're digging a Ponder on your turn and not worry about your opponents turn 2.
Bitterblossom
- For almost the same reasons for SSS, I wouldnt want BB in the main. I can see it bieng good in a control match up, but it's probably not necessary. The MD already beats on control and if i was goin to dedicate slots against control, I'd add some sort of additional counterspells to the board. Counterspells help in more than just the control match up, so they're more versitile
In conclusion:
- Bob: Great but slows the deck down and leans you down a path of a whole different deck / play style.
- SSS: Not the right fit for this deck. I can't see myself cutting anything to find room for this little guy.
- Bitterblossom: Seems bad in the MD, and I'd rather have cards that help against control and combo in the board over this card
I'd like to just compare my list to Flores' list a bit. They are pretty dissimilar, but I'm one of the few people running a list with more than 3 or 4 discard spells in it and no FoW or Daze.
Generally, I've found the deck to be very "threat light" which is probably why Flores was running the bitterblossoms - and why they are a legitimate option for the deck (in some matchups - especially zoo, against path, bolt, and chain lightning).
I've found a 9 card removal suite to be pretty awesome as well (I run 4 StP, 3 PtE, 2 Vindicate) - I'm not sure how i feel about flores' 11 card removal suite...but it makes sense as he's not running any Perish in the board (which I am) - he is probably correct since most of the zoo decks are moving away from green creatures anyway, and Bant can be addressed with more targeting removal.
The biggest difference between his and my list (IMO) is the use of Hymn to Tourach over duress and Chrome mox as lands 19-21. Chrome Mox has the ability to make the deck extremely explosive, and I may be forced to go this way eventually, but generally I'm not a fan of the card disadvantage. If I had to guess, I would say the inclusion of the Mox is what led to him cutting FoW (to limit card disadvantage).
Lastly - I love the choices he made for countermagic here. He chose the Spellsnare, which is extremely relevant in a meta of 'Goyfs and SFM's, and the spellpierce - which is much more difficult to play around than daze.
I would say that this list has me thinking very hard about several of my current card choices.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I top 8d a 24 man event yesterday going 3-1-1 in the swiss. I also went 4-0-1 with it in our weekly friday night legacy tournament at TOGIT. I have been working on various esperblade lists ever since I saw Eli Kassis playing it at GP Providence. At the time he was saying a new list should only be running 2 force of will and at the time I thought there was no way that could ever be correct, it is.
Rd 1 Chris Pikula - Fae Blade 2-1
RD 2 Junk 2-0
Rd 3 Jack Wang - Fae Blade 1-1-1 (I would of won with 2 more turns as I was way ahead with jace, bob, stoneforge, manriki and jitte)
Rd 4 Burn 0-2
Rd 5 Merfolk 2-0
Top 8
Jack Wang 0-2
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Uzemawa's Jitte
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, TMS
2 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
I've changed a few sb cards but this is my new sb
1 Counterspell
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Go for the throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Disenchant
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Wrath of God
1 Perish
3 Extirpate
and yes, I'm a big fan of nassifesque sideboards.
Last edited by Jim Higginbottom; 08-09-2011 at 10:27 AM.
Did you get a picture of how those lists looked like? I'm really interested in the fae-approach myself.Rd 1 Chris Pikula - Fae Blade 2-1
[...]
Rd 3 Jack Wang - Fae Blade 1-1-1
"Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a fatty that Jamie Wakefield seems to have overlooked. It has a tremendous power and toughness of 3000/2500, making it bigger than current threats such as Tarmogoyf or Mountain."
It's the list ben friedman played at scg pittsburgh.
Originally I had thought about making the traditional team america deck with green, but after looking at what was being played, I thought it would be A) a better choice versus some of the more popular decks B) cheaper since I didn't have tarmogoyfs any longer
I'm still in the process of getting 4 of my fetchlands but here is what I currently have together.
4 stoneforge mystic
4 tombstalker
2 batterskull
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 daze
3 stifle
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
4 swords to plowshares
4 underground sea
2 tundra
2 scrubland
3 polluted delta
3 marsh flats
3 flooded strand
4 wasteland
What I wanted was an additional land as the stoneforge package was potentially more mana intensive than the green, plus removal was now white as well.
I added the 2nd scrubland as a way to give me that.
A tentative SB is also made up, but without playing much, it's only an idea. Also I only included the cards I actually owned so there could be a few better options.
At this point it looks like this
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Perish
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Submerge
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Manriki gusari
1 Snuff out
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
Ideally I would like the O-ring to be a vindicate I think and probably one of the GY cards to be surgical extraction, but that's the deck currently.
It's pretty much together just to play a friend, and maybe a local tourny but that's about it. It definitely looks fun though.
Anyone who eats hot dogs with their mouth is doing it wrong, as far as I’m concerned.
I've been working on a list similar to this, that is basically Gerry Thompson's 1st place Team America list from SCG Pittsburgh, but with White instead of Green. Here's what I came up with:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Stifle
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
Sideboard:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate (I like Spellbomb/Extirpate better than Leylines)
1 Go For The Throat
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
I really like this color combination because Perish is such a house right now.
wanted to get this back on page one. I just switched my bobs into tombstalkers anf JTMS into vindicates.
Sam Roukas,
Good job in Atlanta. I think the leylines in your sb should be planar voids though. I'd of sent this as a private message but I forget what your name is on here.
Username is: IsThisACatInAHat?
He'll probably do a report.
Only posts when drunk.
Thanks Jim. It may come as no surprise, but the deck you ran at the August NELC was a major source of inspiration for me when I built this one.
I glossed over Void for 'yard hate because it's a trigger rather than a replacement effect, which came up vs Dredge in the Swiss. I'd be willing to give it a shot though, since it seems pretty interchangeable as long as they're both Enchantments and Dredge isn't running Misstep and Reanimator is a fine matchup anyway.
Great success!
IsThisACatInAHat?,
It seems like your deck is closer to a UW Control list with black splash for card advantage (replacing Visions/Standstills) than an Esper Team America. Is that why you have MD Bobs instead of Tombstalkers so you can play the blue control role more effectively? Also no discards maindeck...
I really like the build but can't quite grasp the play style of the deck.
What we've found by playing this list against the gauntlet is that discard is terrible against most of the decks you'd want to use it against. Good players will almost always have a Brainstorm or MM in their hand, and suddenly that Thoughtseize turns into like half a timewalk for them. If Mindtwist was legal, maybe we'd play it.
Bob is just a better stand in for Standstills and Visions. Using the blue draw spells means you have to use man lands, which have always been underwhelming. Yes, it can be sexy to cast Standstill after resolving a SFM, and like, opperate your entire deck under one, but its much better to have more colored mana sources and swing for 2 damage occasionally.
Plus, running black gives you the best sideboard options in todays misstep dominated era. I like running Vindicates in the board cause they are badass, but it's probably incorrect.
Only posts when drunk.
So how's the playstyle generally? Say, if you are holding both a SFM and Bob in your opening hand and a Mental Misstep to protect either of them which one goes on the board first? Do you go with SFM first to play the aggro role or go with Bob to play a more controllish role.
This build reminds me of Forbidian of old times and I really like it (I also have an incentive to replace Cliques with more counterspells and actually play it like a straight-up control deck) so I'm really looking forward to that tournament report :)
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