Currently in legacy most decks have fetch lands, and a lot of the top tier decks use things like natural order, stoneforge mystic and green sun's zenith.
Why does almost no one use Aven mindcensor?
I see lots of Vendilion clique being played, but crippling a three colour manabase or shutting off Green Sun's Zenith , Natural Order and/or stoneforge mystic all seem like better things. Vendilion clique and Aven mindcensor do different things, -clique cycles away the card you least want them to have, while aven mindcesnor helps win attrition wars and gain advantage.
Aven mindcensor has also always been a strong sleeper card, it was an answer to Mystical Tutor, Survival of the fittest and Storm combo pre Mental Misstep. With that said, very few people gave it a try in those era's.
Does the new rise of library manipulation warrant it's use now, and is it better than Vendilion clique?
Last edited by John Cox; 07-23-2011 at 02:04 AM. Reason: card tags
The problem with Mindcensor is that it has 2 power while clique has 3. It is a world of difference in terms of clock.
Mindcensor is slightly annoying, but it just doesn't do anything ground breaking on the battlefield. It is average at best.
I also thought about him and in theory he is very good against all the cards you mentioned.
Problem is you need acceleration to ensure he can come down T2, which not many decks have. If GSZ, Stoneforge was played or 2 lands are already in play his effect is not that strong. Besides that legacy has so much removal that he won't stick around fast. Since he is also not applying pressure, he does not do much except for this lock...
So overall I think it makes sense that it is only a SB option for GW Midrange. They have acceleration and loose to a bigger dude called Progenitus. Even for that purpose he does not do so well, because the NO RUG player can see it coming easily and has countermagic.
For decks that have the dedicated purpose to lock there are more powerful 3 mana options...
Durward did play Mindcensor as a 2x in his Blue Zoo sideboard. I think is playable even MD if you run a reasonable amount of mana ramp turn 1 such as GSZ into Dryad or Hierarch. Dropped turn 2 against certain decks is must Force or must Sword or GG.
He's not Clique, but dropped turn 2 off a Hierarch he's a solid 3/2 attacker on turn 3. I would not dismiss it only for his little body.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
This has been a longtime vintage staple. Just because he deals 2 damage doesn't mean its a bad card. Following the same line of thought must mean that SFM (Squire) BoB (Expensive Savannah Lion) are not good enough to see legacy play either.
Over here in germany, there is a big wave of GW Maverick style decks. Those decks run up to 3 copies of Mindcensor maindeck because SFM-based decks have a big impact on our metagame and almost every second matchup you see at a tournament is a Stoneforge mirror match. Also, because of this wave of GW decks (it's like 1/3rd of the metagame) people play Storm again and Mindcensor is basically game over against most Storm decks if he isn't dealt with immediately. This is to be taken literally because "immediately" means "with the tutor effect on the stack". Basically, you can't combo off if your opponent has 2W open and at least 1 card in hand that you don't know. Furthermore, GW runs Mother of Runes, so the answer for Mindcensor wants to have Split Second too.
Sudden Death is a really good card for Combo players nowadays.
Island, go.
I love Aven Mindcensor. Absolutely love it.
But it just has never worked out as well as I've wanted most of the time. There are a few subtle differences with Vendillion Clique.
1) Vendillion Clique can be used offensively. Meaning that you can use it when you want to do something on your turn that you want to make sure happens. So, if you're playing against a deck with Counterspells, you run it out at the end of their turn and see if the coast is clear. Aven Mindcensor can't do that. It is only reactive.
2) Vendillion Clique pitches to Force of Will.
3) Vendillion Clique is played with cards that can stop/slow your opponent down before you get to 3 mana. This is probably the biggest one. When you're on the draw against a SFM deck and they play a turn 2 SFM, AM is useless. Same situation with a VC and the cards around VC will likely stop it.
4) Vendillion Clique can be used to cycle cards out of your own hand.
5) AM is better against worse players. NO RUG payer taps out to play Natural Order against a deck that may have AM. The good player either waits a mana to have Bolt/Grim backup or makes sure he has FoW/Daze backup. The bad player gets blown out.
6) Sometimes AM just doesn't work. I played it against someone and tried to make their SFM useless. The card they wanted was in the top 4.
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Not to nitpick, but wanted to point out some other points so people don't get misleaded by thinking about things from just one perspective
Mindcensor can most definitely be played proactively. HAving flash allows EOT Mindcensor and its effect starts applying. Sure it's better to catch them on a fetch, but doesn't mean you can't run one out against a SFM deck pro-actively.
This has been the most hated clause I've started to experience in Legacy. Playing card X because it pitches to FoW is not a reason to playing card X over Y. Sure Clique pitches to FoW, but a deck playing Clique/Mincensor + Fow should always ensure that they have enough blue count to pitch to FoW in the first place. Same reason people always go RWM is better than Goyf because it pitches to FoW or some other examples like that. A deck with FoW already has the precondition that it needs to have FoW supported, so this statement is really starting to bug me considering we're in this format for such a long time we should already know this.2) Vendillion Clique pitches to Force of Will.
I agree here. However, Clique against SFM on the draw is also a little too slow. They go turn 2 SFM, you go turn 2 nothing, turn 3 they get the Equipment in play, Clique does nothing. Clique could at least stop a turn 2 SFM on the PLAY. I do love Clique against NO though, but the same can be said for Mindcensor which also stops NO stonecold. Clique doesn't really get rid of 2x NO scenarios but Mindcensor does. This analysis is highly subjective to the matchup and scenario. Both cards are good in different ways3) Vendillion Clique is played with cards that can stop/slow your opponent down before you get to 3 mana. This is probably the biggest one. When you're on the draw against a SFM deck and they play a turn 2 SFM, AM is useless. Same situation with a VC and the cards around VC will likely stop it.
Yes, this is very nice, especially with Karakas :O4) Vendillion Clique can be used to cycle cards out of your own hand.
Well where's the analysis for Clique? Your opponents will have the FoW/Daze for Clique as they would for Mindcensor. The thing is, AM is just really really good against NO because it actually starts the disruption even before NO (against fetchlands etc)5) AM is better against worse players. NO RUG payer taps out to play Natural Order against a deck that may have AM. The good player either waits a mana to have Bolt/Grim backup or makes sure he has FoW/Daze backup. The bad player gets blown out.
Sometimes Clique doesn't work too, because they will flip the card that you just put at the bottom, or you Clique and see a hand of multiple SFM/NO. ONce again the analysis depends on the situation.6) Sometimes AM just doesn't work. I played it against someone and tried to make their SFM useless. The card they wanted was in the top 4.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
It loses a lot of value this way though. It opens AM up to removal which just makes it a 2/1 for 3...
It's a valid point though. FoW decks have been edging lower and lower on the Blue count and VC as both a pro-active good attacker and a Fow pitch card is very relevant.This has been the most hated clause I've started to experience in Legacy. Playing card X because it pitches to FoW is not a reason to playing card X over Y. Sure Clique pitches to FoW, but a deck playing Clique/Mincensor + Fow should always ensure that they have enough blue count to pitch to FoW in the first place. Same reason people always go RWM is better than Goyf because it pitches to FoW or some other examples like that. A deck with FoW already has the precondition that it needs to have FoW supported, so this statement is really starting to bug me considering we're in this format for such a long time we should already know this.
Believe me, I love AM. It's just been frustrating because he never seems to work out when I want him to. He's either a turn too late, removed or misses entirely. Flying and Flash are great abilities on a disruptive creature, but I've always ended up disappointed in AM when I've played him. It's a little strange because Gaddok Teeg has always been solid for me and they do similar things.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I can agree with this. I play Maverick and test heavily against NO RUG. Even in that matchup (tons of fetches, GSZ, Natural Order), sometimes he just does not work out. He is a bit too slow and feels a little clunky. Like you said, he is a turn too late almost every single time. Other than that, in the matchups he's good against, other than storm, the opponent will have removal for him, unless you have Mother of Runes out to protect it (in which case he is coming down t3 instead of t2, which doesn't help against Stoneforge Mystic).
On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't expect him (Maverick still isn't even considered to be a real deck by some here in America), he can be backbreaking. I've had a few games where I cast him in response to an opponent playing NO, and just winning the game because of it. The look on my opponents' faces is priceless!
In fact, it's always vulnerable to removal, even if played in response to a fetch/sfm. If they're about to search, and you flash in the aven, they can just kill it at instant speed and then proceed with the search. Compare this to vendilion clique's ability which still works even if they kill it.
I think your comparing them too literally. Aven Mindcensor is a CA/ tempo generator where as clique is a one shot tool. Even if mindcensor gets plowed and they keep searching you got a one for one trade, -cliqued is that at best. Mindcensor lets you build tempo and win the long game.
See the sig. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that AM lets you build tempo and win the long game or how it generates you CA.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Aven mindcensor shuts off more cards in your opponents deck than the one card aven mindcensor is, over the few turns it's out they're will be dead fetchlands and other cards sitting in your opponents hand and and on their board. When my one Aven Mindcensor shuts of your fetches, Natural Order and Green sun zenith that's card advantage. When their deck is that crippled pulling ahead of a them isn't difficult.
A) That's not Card Advantage.
B) I've seen plenty of fetchlands used successfully with AM in play.
C) Your AM has lived longer than any AM I've ever seen.
Regardless, the only thing you've "proven" is that AM is ok when you're ahead, if it lives, and if they haven't drawn Goyfs, Cliques, Grim, Bolt or Fire/Ice.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I think we are referring to virtual card advantage. You're not drawing cards, but you're turning some of theirs off as mentioned.
Sure, searches can still work with Mindcensor. It's a great effect because it is one sided and even if it fails, it is still pretty strong. How strong? Viable strong? I suppose that is what the thread is for.
Not everything gets removed. I often played AM alongside removal and countermagic. Keeping an AM around isn't the most impossible game state.
It carries equips like a champ too.
Aven Mindcensor has been a love/hate card for me. I hate it because I'm not certain (even with thorough use) that it's effect is strong enough to warrant inclusion in the agro/control decks I was playing. I'm looking forward to hopefully using it again soon because I believe that it's powerful. Maybe the current Meta is a good time for it. I always wanted it when I didn't draw it. However, at 3CMC it was hard to devote a lot of slots to it.
Comparing Mindcensor to Clique is a decent exercise. I think the argument boils down to, if you could only play one or the other, which would you choose? People choose Clique because it "races" and because it will affect things right now and discredit Mindcensor by believing that its effect is weaker, it's more likely to be removed, and can't kill opponents as quickly.
Perhaps they are right.
I feel it could be a good time for Mincensor now. I am glad that this thread exists and hopefully more testing will be posted here.
In Maverick you can fairly reliably drop AM on turn 2, and I don't think "It can be killed" is a great argument, especially when simultaneously defending Clique. And certainly not in a deck with 25 or more creatures.
On the other hand I am somewhat skeptical of the card's power because it's a pretty weak flyer for three mana if you don't get much use out of its abilities. I can see it in metas where the mirror and storm come up a lot.
I'm not really sure what other deck wants it though, aside from like Angel Stompy if that's even still a thing.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Generating "tempo" at a 1:1 trade isn't a realistic argument, especially considering that they've paid 1 mana to your 3. Clique denies card quality, which is an important factor in a meta littered with "brainstorm" and other card quality devices (top, jace, etc.). I think that it's important to note that an unanswered mindcensor denies card quality considering the immense amount of fetches, tutors and other tricks that decks play in order to GAIN card quality, but if answered immediately it has nearly zero impact on the game where the Clique at least has an EtB (Enter the Battlefield) effect.In many other scenarios, the Clique can deny the opponent the card they're looking to use unless they can brainstorm in response. The AM can only deny effects in a mainly reactive way.
The comparison is ultimately in the favor of Vendillion Clique imo. It is not a fair comparison considering the cards have different effects on the game. For the sake of saving this thread and any further discussion of the mentioned comparisons, Clique is a stronger card in nature. That being said, the AM is good in the right deck. The problem then becomes finding him a home rather than finding out if another 3 drop is better. Let's continue this discussion in a more constructive way:
G/W Mav having been mentioned, Stax is another shell where the AM shines and can be dropped on turns one or two. However, the lack of other threats makes him a prime target for removal. What other decks is his ability strong in? Death and Taxes? Their three slot is already stuffed with Flickerwisp and Mangara. Also, with Stonecloaker for GY hate in some metas makes AM the weakest of the 4. I do not think the card has enough overall power to reliably hinder the opponent in the way that many other cards do... Which is unfortunate because I love the card.
I mean I think except for having the extra point of power, which is important, Clique compares reasonably to Mindcensor but in most decks, I think that's more of an argument against Clique than for Mindcensor. Like they're both playable, but 3cc utility evasion dorks aren't the most busted things going on in Legacy. At that cost you could be dropping 7/7 utility monsters.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Every time someone says that AM can be used in a GW Maverick deck, I can't help but notice that everything AM does, Teeg does better.
1) More reliably cast turn 2 (and can helped by Mom on turn 2)
2) Stops more things (Jace, FoW, GSZ & NO vs GSZ & NO)
3) Dies to the same removal
4) Stops other decks as well (Stax, Spiral)
It just seems like one of those situations where in the decks he makes sense in, there is already a better card.
In DnT: Mangara/Flickerwisp
In GW Maverick: Teeg
In UW Tempo: Vendillion Clique
Where does that leave him?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
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