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Thread: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

  1. #161

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Sure I guess this works, you don't even need to worry about decking yourself before reaching lethal ballista mana because you only need enough to replay Arcum again and equip him with greaves.


    Oh, I don't use ballista as my main wincon anymore. I added aetherflux reservoir because I wanted something that didn't use the graveyard. It also lets you win without Arcum, letting you play a kind of storm game. I've been testing out batterskull for the times you don't have a second fodder for Arcum. Since it's not actually a creature Arcum can grab it, and if you have engine out and eight mana worth of rocks you can go infinite without worrying about decking yourself or using the graveyard at all.

  2. #162

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyTron View Post
    Oh, I don't use ballista as my main wincon anymore. I added aetherflux reservoir because I wanted something that didn't use the graveyard. It also lets you win without Arcum, letting you play a kind of storm game. I've been testing out batterskull for the times you don't have a second fodder for Arcum. Since it's not actually a creature Arcum can grab it, and if you have engine out and eight mana worth of rocks you can go infinite without worrying about decking yourself or using the graveyard at all.
    Well I get that recasting batterskull is a way to make infinite mana without using the graveyard, which could be useful, but once you are at that point then both Ballista and Aetherflux win the game without needing the graveyard, right? You can just cast ballista from your hand for X = 1000 and kill everybody, you don't have to recur it back at any point unless for some reason you already used it. A 2 mana artifact 1/1 is so much more useful to this deck than a 4 mana noncreature artifact do-nothing that I can't see how you justify making this change. Theres no way you can storm out to 100+ life totals with this deck unless you have a loop going in which case you have already set up infinite mana to win with Ballista anyway

    I think the option of making infinite mana without using the graveyard is potentially useful but isn't something like Crystal Shard just better than Batterskull? Or even Ancestral Statue.

  3. #163
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Sorcerous Spyglass
    2
    Artifact

    As Sorcerous Spyglass enters the battlefield, look at an opponent's hand, then choose any card name.
    Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.

    ----

    Looks good to me.
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  4. #164

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    Sorcerous Spyglass
    2
    Artifact

    As Sorcerous Spyglass enters the battlefield, look at an opponent's hand, then choose any card name.
    Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.

    ----

    Looks good to me.
    'Peek 1 player' is obviously much worse in multiplayer and I don't know that the deck needs 3 Pithing Needles
    - Revoker is worth because it's a creature so even if there is nothing important to name Arcum can tinker it away
    - Needle is worth because Artificer's Intuition and Trinket Mage can both find it, it only costs 1 mana to cast, if you are very desperate Arcum can also find it.
    - What option does this give you that the previous two cards don't?

    If you had asked me previously "Would you play 2 Revokers if you were allowed to?" then I think I might say yes, not because turning off an ability is great in a vacuum but because being an artifact creature limits how bad it can be. If you ask me would I play 2 Pithing Needles if I was allowed to I think I would say no (and Spyglass is worse than Needle I think, being 2 mana).

    Maybe I will change my mind later but this is my 2c at the moment.

  5. #165
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Foil Manakin in IMA! Finally!
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  6. #166

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    Foil Manakin in IMA! Finally!
    I think I like the art and the flavor text more than the tempest one too although I do love my brown borders...

  7. #167

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Picked up foil Manakin and foil Guardian Idol from IMA
    I think the old Guardian Idol might look better than the new one but I didn't have a foil and it's just nice to have some fresh art.

    I haven't thought of anything great since the last update really. I'm considering whether Grand Architect/Pili-Pala might be a viable backup combo (especially because Citanul Flute finds both pieces). It has the same problem of Power/Monolith (compared to Staff/Metalworker) that it only makes mana and needs a third card, but if you assembled it already with Flute then you can find Ballista anyway. Also still wondering about the paradox of playing Lotus Petal and Trinisphere in the same deck.

    Now that there is a 2nd Etherium Sculptor (Foundry Inspector) I am wondering about the possibility of adding Magus of the Future back in for the combo with Top, but this is probably too greedy still.

    I have a lot of flexible slots (~10 or so) and they can always be filled with generic interaction or card draw or signets without doing anything fancy. Mystic Remora is something I have probably underrated in the past.

    Edit: I think Hollow One might actually be alright now that I think about it, even though you probably wouldn't cast it much it gives some extra flexibility in that you _can_ do that, and it gives an extra target for Junk Diver and so forth (unlike Baubles it actually has the ability to do something other than draw a card and because cycling is not a spell the cantrip is immune to Trinisphere, Thorn etc)

    Edit 2: I have found several lines requiring a 2nd 0-drop (so Memnite plus either Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walker, or Ornithopter).
    I am wondering whether Retriever / Diver / Assistant / Trawler are all necessary or if e.g. Assistant can be cut
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 12-22-2017 at 02:57 AM.

  8. #168

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Creature
    4 Arcum Dagsson
    3 Trinket Mage
    3 Grand Architect
    3 Trophy Mage
    4 Quicksmith Spy

    Planeswalker
    5 Tezzeret the Seeker

    Artifact
    0 Mana Crypt
    0 Mox Opal
    0 Tormod's Crypt
    0 Lotus Petal
    0 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Expedition Map
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Skullclamp
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Aether Spellbomb
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Sphere of Resistance
    2 Guardian Idol
    2 Lightning Greaves
    2 Winter Orb
    2 Grim Monolith
    2 Defense Grid
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    3 Crystal Shard
    3 Tangle Wire
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Thousand Year Elixir
    3 Basalt Monolith
    3 Rings of Brighthearth
    3 Staff of Domination
    5 Citanul Flute
    5 Paradox Engine
    7 Spine of Ish Sah

    Artifact Creature
    0 Hangarback Walker
    0 Walking Ballista
    0 Memnite
    0 Ornithopter
    2 Silver Myr
    2 Plague Myr
    2 Manakin
    2 Millikin
    2 Hedron Crawler
    2 Spellskite
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Etherium Sculptor
    2 Myr Retriever
    2 Pili-Pala
    3 Metalworker
    3 Junk Diver
    4 Lodestone Golem

    Enchantment
    2 Copy Artifact
    2 Artificer's Intuition
    2 Power Artifact

    Sorcery
    2 Transmute Artifact
    2 Reshape
    3 Fabricate

    Instant
    0 Pact of Negation
    2 Mana Drain
    3 Whir of Invention

    Land
    35

    3 Unknown Slot

    In the past I have been unhappy with Power Artifact, and recently I anticipated that I would not want to play the Rings/Basalt combo anymore (now that it is possible to win with Flute/Engine). However there is now such an an abundance of tutors (Inventor's Fair, Trophy Mage, Whir of Invention have all been recently printed) that it is both easier to assemble these combo pairs and easier to find a sink for having infinite mana (this is why I like adding PP/Architect as well). There is also some benefit to playing multiple of these. If you play Staff only as a combo with Metalworker then it will be a brick a large amount of the time, if you have it as an outlet for infinite mana for PP/Architect, PA/Monolith etc etc then it becomes a much more useful card.

    Quicksmith Spy is not only a reasonably acceptable card by itself, all of the infinite mana combos (Ring/Monolith, PP/Architect, PA/Monolith) combo with it to draw your entire deck. Other sinks for infinite mana are much less good, as far as I am aware. Quicksmith Spy + Pili Pala is also not a terrible combo by itself but ultimately using Quicksmith Spy for value is still a plan B.

    I have cut back the retrievers to only 2 because that is the minimum amount needed for the combo and they are not very good cards by themselves. (The deck does not fill the graveyard very consistently and the main sac outlet is Arcum. If you are successfully sacrificing ANYTHING to Arcum you are probably winning and don't care about the value of the death trigger much). Myr Retriever is the best one because it costs the least, Junk Diver is better than Scrap Trawler I think, because it dies to Skullclamp, and returns anything, and I can flex on people with my foil one (starcity $28 out of stock wat the fuk). I don't think there are enough other sac things (Mind Stone etc) for the Scrap Trawler ability to consistently provide value, but I could be wrong.

    Other cards have not changed much from my previous list

    Crystal Shard is untested but seems like it could be good
    -Save a guy from removal
    -Rebuy Trinket Mage etc
    -Tax your opponent's creatures
    -Combo with Paradox Engine

    I have goldfished Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond to very mixed results, I'm not convinced that they make sense in this deck.

    One of the last 3 cards should probably be Force of Will if the blue count is high enough. The other cards could be card draw (Thoughtcast, TFK, Reverse Engineer), Mana (Mind Stone, Commanders Sphere, Everflowing Chalice) or a silver bullet card (like Mindslaver or something). I also wouldn't be against adding 1 land.

    Edit:
    Played 1 game with this list
    All of the decklist theorycrafting was basically irrelevant
    I played Mana crypt, Aetherspellbomb, Manakin turn 1
    Arcum turn 2
    Turn 3 I awkwardly topdeck the Paradox Engine but I use Spellbomb to bounce Rashmi's Baral so he can't cast Mana Leak, and win the game
    It really can't be overstated how stupid Paradox Engine is for this deck
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 01-25-2018 at 01:43 AM.

  9. #169

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    New cards

    The Antiquities War 3U
    Enchantment — Saga
    (As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)
    I, II — Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an artifact card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
    III — Artifacts you control become artifact creatures with base power and toughness 5/5 until end of turn.

    Howling Golem 3
    Artifact Creature - Golem 2/3
    Whenever ~ attacks or blocks, each player draws a card

    Jhoira's Familiar 4
    Artifact Creature - Bird 2/2
    Flying
    Your 'historic' spells (artifact, legendary, saga) cost 1 less

    Karn, Scion of Urza 4
    Legendary PW - Karn [5]
    +1 Reveal top 2 cards, opp choose 1. Put chosen card into your hand and exile the other with a silver counter on it
    -1 Put a card you own from exile with a silver counter on it into your hand
    -2 Create a 0/0 artifact construct token with 'this gets +1+1 for each artifact you control'

    Mishra's Self-Replicator 5
    Artifact Creature - Assembly Worker 2/2
    Whenever you cast a historic spell (Artifact, legendary, saga), you may pay 1. If you do, create a token copy of Mishra's Self-replicator

    Mox Amber 0
    Legendary Artifact
    {T}: Add 1 mana of any color among legendary creatures and planeswalkers you control

    Voltaic Servant 2
    Artifact Creature - Construct 1/3
    At the beginning of your end step, untap target artifact

    Thoughts:
    AQ War: 4 mana for 2x impulse over 2 turns is too slow for EDH and the alpha-strike effect isn't good in 40 life multiplayer
    Howling Golem: Interesting option to consider but I'm not playing Runed Servitor and probably wouldn't play this for the same reasons
    Jhoira's Familiar: Foundry Inspector that also discounts Arcum is a very interesting option, unfortunately the manacost means this doesn't work on any sort of curve. Possibly good but I'm leaning towards no
    Karn: Being able to make artifact tokens is nice, but 4 mana to do that is a lot and I think that the other abilities might be too slow
    Self Replicator: Cool effect but too expensive (c.f. Myr Propagator)
    Mox Amber: If Arcum is in play you don't typically need much mana, but a Mox is a Mox. Free spells are always strong with Paradox Engine, maybe this is still good.
    Voltaic Servant: Interesting ability and cheap cost, the problem is that I don't think it actually does anything in the deck! It seems like the best thing it can do is untap Mana Vault. I recently began to think Voltaic Key is a bit mediocre, and while it's nice that the servant is an Artifact Creature, not being able to untap things in your main phases is a significant drawback.

    TL:DR not amazed by anything so far but the set has a bit of an artifact theme so hopefully there is something new for the deck
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 04-14-2018 at 02:25 AM.

  10. #170

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Full set out now: every card that is even marginally interesting (in addition to the above post)

    Artificer's Assistant {U}
    Creature - Bird 1/1
    Flying
    Whenever you cast a historic spell scry 1

    Weatherlight {4}
    Legendary Artifact - Vehicle 4/5
    Flying
    Whenever Weatherlight deals combat damage to a player, look at the top 5 cards of your library. You may reveal a historic card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
    Crew 3

    Helm of the Host {4}
    Legendary Artifact - Equipment
    At the beginning of combat on your turn, create a copy of equipped creature, except the copy isn't legendary if equipped creature is legendary. The token gains haste
    Equip 5

    Thran Temporal Gateway {4}
    Legendary Artifact
    {4}, {T}; you may put a historic permanent card from your hand onto the battlefield

    Traxos, Scourge of Kroog {4}
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Construct 7/7
    Trample
    ~ Enters the battlefield tapped and doesn't untap during its controllers untap step.
    Whenever you cast a historic spell, untap ~.

    Damping Sphere {2}
    Artifact
    If a land is tapped for 2 or more mana it produces {C} instead of any other type or amount
    Each spell a player casts cost {1} more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn

    Skittering Surveyor {3}
    Artifact Creature - Construct 1/2
    [It's Pilgrim's Eye without Flying]

    My thoughts:
    - The Bird: would be an interesting option if it was an artifact, as printed I don't think it does enough to be worth a card
    - Weatherlight: Would be almost tempted to include this if it was just a creature all the time, however 1 Impulse per turn is a very slow payoff for a 4 mana investment (see my comments on The Antiquities War) and Crew 3 is not easy for this deck to do
    - Helm: I can't see a reason to play this, but it has a unique enough effect that I thought I could have possibly missed some combo with it so I thought I might as well list it down just in case someone else has any ideas
    - Thran Temporal Gateway: Just bad, you shouldn't be playing things that are so expensive you can reliably accelerate with this, compares unfavourably to other fringe cards like Master Transmuter
    - Traxos: Similar to Helm, I can't see a reason to play a 7/7 beatstick in EDH even if it does 'only' cost 4, but maybe there is some combo loop with its trigger so I note it just in case
    - Damping Sphere: Very good card but as long as we are utilizing the Paradox Engine / Flute chain it almost certainly hurts this deck more than most others (which is fortunately the opposite of most sphere effects, Thorn Lodestone Thalia etc), so I don't think it's playable
    - Surveyor: I'm not even playing Pilgrim's Eye 1.0 and I'm not sure what it would take for me to go back to that, but I have used it in the past so here is another one if anybody still rates Civic Wayfinders

    Not a very exciting set overall imo.
    Top 3 cards:
    Voltaic Servant
    Mox Amber
    Jhoira's Familiar

    And I don't know if any of these are actually good enough or not

    Bonus meme: new artwork for Sage of Lat Nam

  11. #171
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    I'll probably try Karn. It's a strong card on its own, and is bolstered further by its capability to make fodder, and to be cast earlier than turn 4 given the number of mana rocks we run.
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  12. #172

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    M19 Spoiler

    Skyscanner {3}
    Artifact Creature - Thopter
    Flying
    When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
    1/1

    Probably going to play this, straightforward but solid card

  13. #173
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    M19 Spoiler

    Skyscanner {3}
    Artifact Creature - Thopter
    Flying
    When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
    1/1

    Probably going to play this, straightforward but solid card
    I'm not too high on it because it costs 3. If it costed 2, it would'v been a slam dunk.

    As it is, it sort of feels like Pilgrim's Eye or Filigree Familiar. In any case, it should probably be considered the best in that tier (3 drop fodders that provide value).
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  14. #174

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    I'm not too high on it because it costs 3. If it costed 2, it would'v been a slam dunk.

    As it is, it sort of feels like Pilgrim's Eye or Filigree Familiar. In any case, it should probably be considered the best in that tier (3 drop fodders that provide value).
    If it cost 2 it would almost be too good for constructed

    Drawing a random card is significantly better than drawing island most of the time, and drawing a card on ETB is significantly better than drawing a card on dying
    I agree that it's not mind-blowingly powerful but I think it's clearly better than Pilgrim's Eye / Filigree Familiar / Workshop Assistant etc
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-15-2018 at 10:55 PM.

  15. #175
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer



    Looks really good.
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  16. #176

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    It does look pretty good

    I'm always suspicious of these kind of token makers because I think that having the ability to make limitless tokens often isn't worth their expensive manacost (e.g. I think that Karn is probably worse than Myr Sire most of the time)

    This already has the same triggered ability as Efficient Construction, which at 4 mana I would say is too expensive to be playable

    However, this is 1 mana cheaper and the activated ability could be useful in some situations, so I will test it

    Apart from this card there is also the Meteor Golem (I think that's what it's called) which is interesting but I think probably too expensive/narrow

  17. #177
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer



    2 relevant abilities on this one.
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  18. #178

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post


    2 relevant abilities on this one.
    True but it still has the exact same problem I just talked about
    Like how often are you going to be activating this so many times that it's better than TFK or Reverse Engineer or whatever
    At least OG Tezz isn't such a tempo black hole by giving you 3 mana worth of card onto the battlefield

    If the Ox-Wand thing had instant speed activation I think it might be an automatic staple
    As-is, I think it's still quite good

  19. #179
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    True but it still has the exact same problem I just talked about
    Like how often are you going to be activating this so many times that it's better than TFK or Reverse Engineer or whatever
    At least OG Tezz isn't such a tempo black hole by giving you 3 mana worth of card onto the battlefield

    If the Ox-Wand thing had instant speed activation I think it might be an automatic staple
    As-is, I think it's still quite good
    The times when things don't go according to plan. If Arcum gets answered 2-3 times, we need some grindy way to get back in the game, and even try to win without relying on Arcum. Also, OG Tezz is not in danger of losing its place because of its tutor ability.

    New Tezz, and to a certain extent, Baby Karn, gives us a constant source of advantage when the Arcum way is not available, which can try to get us back in the game, or maybe try to win it, without relying on Arcum (assembling the combo without him), WHILE also serving the dual role of providing fodder once the Arcum route is clear or if it's available to begin with, albeit at a higher cost than normal fodder. Compare this to let's say Big Karn, while an excellent planeswalker in its own right, do not really advance the Arcum plan (doesn't produce fodder).

    TFK or Reverse Engineer provide a 1-time boost, which for me, means leaning towards relying on the Arcum route more, so it doesn't provide flexibility (I'm not saying you shouldn't run TFK though, I just think they don't do the same thing).

    Agree with the Ox-Wand, instant staple if it had instant speed activation. A repeatable answer to problematic creatures may have some use in the deck.
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  20. #180

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Some new cards from commander 18 that are possibly playable

    Retrofitter Foundry {1}
    Artifact
    {3}: Untap ~
    {2}, Tap: Create a 1/1 Artifact Servo
    {1}, Tap, Sacrifice a Servo: Create a 1/1 Artifact Thopter with Flying
    Tap, Sacrifice a Thopter: Create a 4/4 Artifact Construct
    This card is pretty good by itself, cmc 1 or less token maker, not too mana-inefficient for the rate that it makes tokens, outlet for infinite mana. Unfortunately this job is already done very well by Hangarback Walker which has a better base rate of 2 tokens for 2 mana and can be found with Citanul Flute for 0. I don't know that the deck needs both.

    Coveted Jewel {6}
    Artifact
    When ~ Enters the battlefield, draw 3
    Tap: Add 3 of any one color
    Whenever an opponent attacks you with an unblocked creature, they gain control of ~, draw 3, and untap it
    6 mana Gilded Lotus with ETB Ancestral Recall would probably make the cut, but the drawback of giving it to your opponent is quite serious.
    I think that this card becomes much stronger if you are playing things like Kuldotha Forgemaster to tutor for it or things to sacrifice it so your opponent can't steal it. Then again, if you have a tinker effect, wouldn't you rather just search for Paradox Engine or Citanul Flute? Does the deck really want to be casting 6 drops from hand ever? In very cutthroat metagames giving your opponent a free ancestral + lotus can often be tantamount to losing the game. This card is difficult to evaluate because it's so high-risk/high-reward. Part of the main combo involves tinkering for mana rocks but I don't think a free Recall does anything when you're already doing off.

    Geode Golem {5}
    Artifact Creature - Golem
    Trample
    Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, you can cast your commander from the command zone without paying its manacost
    5/3
    Very interesting ability. It will always be an artifact creature so it still has uses in games that are smooth sailing but in games where Arcum is removed it can potentially provide a lot of acceleration. The problem is that if Arcum dies once then a card that adds mana like Thran Dynamo will also let you replay Arcum again, and these mana accelerators have far more generic application than the Geode Golem

    Vedalken Humiliator {3}{U}
    Creature: Vedalken Wizard
    Metalcraft: When ~ attacks, if you control 3 or more artifacts, creatures your opponents control lose all abilities and become 1/1 until end of turn
    3/4
    Interesting effect but it's not easily tutorable, if you want to eliminate an opponents lockpiece that is stopping the combo (e.g. Revoker) it just seems worse than Aether Spellbomb. It is nice that it works with pingers (e.g. Ballista) to kill things but I don't think that's worth playing a 4 mana non-artifact creature that doesn't really do anything else
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-25-2018 at 01:56 AM.

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