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Thread: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

  1. #141

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    3 CMC specifically is interesting on Trophy Mage because it hits a lot of combo pieces:
    Metalworker/Staff
    Rings/Monolith
    I wasn't playing staff before, maybe this makes it appealing enough? I'm not sure. There are also other considerations like Grand Architect etc. I'm not 100% sure I will include this card (definitely worse than Trinket, Fabricate) but it's something to consider.

    Scrap Trawler is super interesting, definite auto include imo. Junk Diver and Myr Retriever are usually returning an artifact with CMC <3 so it's an upgrade in that sense.

    Works well with:
    Tinker activation (Arcum, Kuldotha, Reshape/Transmute)
    Possessed Portal Trigger
    Blowing up a board with Disk/Ostone
    Tangle Wire fading away
    Smokestack sacrificing things
    Mindslaver / Memory Jar popping (Kind of a nonbo with Jar because the returned artifact will be exiled until EOT in the Memjar pile, but still)
    Skullclamp Sac
    As a very weird line if you desperately need to rebuy a critical expensive piece you could tinker up Spine to destroy itself

    I still think that Spheres are the way to go in terms of disruption, so it's not worth building the deck with a ton of eggs & lotus petal type cards, but these definitely work the best with the Scrap Trawler.

  2. #142

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    WHAAAAAT



    Also this one, which is probably too expensive (I don't even like Planar Portal)


  3. #143
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    ^I think both are win more cards.
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  4. #144

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    ^I think both are win more cards.
    This is a reasonable position but on Paradox Engine I think the line between "When this card is good you are already winning" and "This card lets you win out of nowhere in spots that no other card would" is at worst VERY fine. I think it's easy to see this card and dismiss it as a 5 mana Clock of Omens but it really needs much less setup and the payoff is WAY higher.

    In a spot where Paradox Engine is the nuts you only need Arcum, 2 Fodders, and a couple of spells
    1. 1st Tinker: Find Engine
    2. Play spell, untap your stuff (This spell can even be the 2nd fodder if you only had 1 on board to start with)
    3. 2nd Tinker: Do you have another spell? If yes, Myr Turbine. If no, Memory Jar.
    4. Play spell, untap your stuff
    5. At this point you should be basically going off and winning the game

    Playing multiple spells in succession is not unreasonably hard because the Engine untaps all of your artifact mana. Having this line available is huge IMO because there isn't currently any such 1-tinker-combo-off-win-the-game play available from such a simple starting position. (Admittedly this is not totally deterministic in some spots but it's much closer to a definite win than just hail-marying into a Jar and hoping to draw a ridiculous hand).

    In my previous post I said:
    I still think that Spheres are the way to go in terms of disruption, so it's not worth building the deck with a ton of eggs & lotus petal type cards, but these definitely work the best with the Scrap Trawler.
    Paradox Engine arguably doesn't 'slot in' to the build of the deck that I (and possibly you) currently use because I'm not playing a super high number of cheap fodders or cheap spells in general and I'm also playing a bunch of stax pieces that hinder the casting of multiple spells in one turn. But its printing might arguably be enough of a push to build the deck in this completely different, almost storm-like direction. Think of all the marginal cards that people have tried at one point or another (or are already playing at the moment) that suddenly become much better with this new card on the battlefield, almost to the point of absurdity:

    - Any artifact that costs 0 or X (Everflowing Chalice, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Ornithopter, Baubles, LED) (Ornithopter gets a special shoutout because with the combo of Arcum + Engine it essentially becomes Tinker for 0 mana, Metalwork Colossus can also probably be free a significant amount of the time and rebuying it is a good way to get extra spell casts)
    - Artifact creatures that 'effectively' cost 0 by paying for themselves when they die (Su-Chi and friends)
    - Cards that make your spells cheaper (Helm of Awakening, Cloud Key, Semblance Anvil, Foundry Inspector)
    - Artifacts that tap to do a thing for value (It's good enough with the ones that just tap for mana, it also lets you tick up Hangarback Walker, tinker with Forgemaster, Staff of Domination, Master Transmuter, Trading Post, if you play an instant you can draw an extra card with Top, you can loot with Deal Broker, make a free guy for every spell with Myr Propagator, draw with any Temple Bell/Jalum Tome effect, Make a thing with Prototype Portal - Certainly it is easy here to get caught up in the 'win more' aspect when suggesting cards that haven't been good enough in the past but it's at least interesting to think about how far you can push the boundaries)
    - Other non-artifact things that tap for value (Sage of Lat-Nam, Grand Architect etc)
    - Cheap cantrip artifacts (Chromatic Sphere, Prophetic Prism etc)
    - Draw/tutor spells in general (Not only e.g. Ponder but also things like TfK, Mystical Tutor and even Windfall and Timetwister.)
    - Retract-style cards that let you replay all your artifacts (Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Paradoxical Outcome)
    - Anything that rewards you for playing a bunch of spells (e.g. Vedalken Archmage)
    - Possible new infinites using passable cards people haven't really tried before (e.g. Isochron Scepter, Crystal Shard / Erratic Portal, Myr Reservoir, Ancestral Statue)
    - If Junk Diver teams up with Retriever or Assistant (and you have 3 mana to untap each time you cast them or the equivalent amount of Etherium Sculptors) then you go infinite with any sac outlet (including Arcum). Any other Regrowth-style effect falls under this umbrella also (e.g. Codex Shredder)

    There's enough there - I think - to construct a deck that uses its first tinker on Paradox Engine and wins the game immediately a significant amount of the time, without being much more fragile than builds that are popular currently. I think this would be a big upgrade and I'm definitely going to test it out.

  5. #145
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer



    And we get a Chord for Artifacts. Sweet!



    And a 1-drop fodder with upside.

    EDIT:

    Strengthening Ballista
    XX
    Artifact Creature - Construct
    Strengthening Ballista enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters.

    4: Put a +1/+1 counter on Strengthening Ballista

    Remova a +1/+1 counter from Strengthening Ballista: Strengthening Ballista deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

    0/0

    Another possible inclusion. Aether Revolt just keeps on giving.

    EDIT again:


    Another fodder with double use. It can serve as fodder, or can serve as Arcum protection prior to casting it.

    Swing, sacrifice, play Arcum which won't be countered or killed (via noncreature spells) until your turn. This makes sure you get an activiation IF you have another fodder out.
    Last edited by mrjumbo03; 01-07-2017 at 01:19 AM.
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  6. #146
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Final deliberations:
    Scrap Trawler - will definitely include
    Walking Ballista - will likely include
    Hope of Ghirapur - 50/50 to include
    Whir of Inventions - I thought this was a slam dunk, but considering it costs UUU, I'm not too sure now

    EDIT:

    I think I'm sold on Paradox Engine. A poster from the other forum had an idea of comboing it with Citanul Flute and other 0-drops, which basically allows you to win on the same turn. This way, we can streamline the deck and possibly even drop the Disk-Forge-Lattice combo (and its clunky pieces).

    His idea was to use all 4 0-drops (Ornithopter, Memnite, Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walker), but I think 1 would be enough (I think rather than a 2nd 0-drop, a 1-drop like Myr Moonvessel will do). The beginning setup requires Arcum and a fodder in play, a fodder in hand.
    1. Activate Arcum to get Engine.
    2. Cast 2nd fodder, which untaps Arcum, activate Arcum to get Flute, tap Flute to get a 0-drop.
    3. Cast 1st 0 drop, which untaps Arcum and Flute, activate Arcum to get Basalt, tap Basalt (3mana), tap Flute to get a 0-drop or 1-drop.
    4. Cast 2nd 0 drop or 1 drop, which untaps Arcum and Flute and Basalt, tap Basalt (4 mana or 6 mana, depending on casting cost of 2nd Flute tutor), activate Arcum to get Rings, tap Flute to get Walking Ballista.
    5. Go infinite mana, cast Walking Ballista, win.
    Last edited by mrjumbo03; 01-12-2017 at 10:47 PM.
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  7. #147

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    I like the idea of Citanul Flute because it also has a reasonable toolbox/cardadvantage function in grinding games when you don't have the combo assembled.
    I agree with the likely cut of the lattice/forge combo. You can also cut rings too, probably (although it still lets you assemble a 2-card infinite even if you don't have a sac outlet/Arcum which _might_ be worth it).

    Edit:
    To clarify, without rings the combo becomes
    Tinker -> Engine
    Cast Dork
    Tinker -> Flute
    Flute -> Thopter
    Cast Thopter
    Tinker -> Monolith
    Tap Monolith (3)
    Flute for a 1drop (2)
    Cast 1drop (1)
    Tinker the 1drop for the other monolith or Mana Vault
    Tap your mana (7)
    Flute for Myr Retriever (5)
    Cast Myr Retriever (3)
    Tap your mana (9)
    Tinker away Myr Retriever (doesn't matter what for)
    Flute for Junk Diver/Scrap Trawler/Workshop Assistant (6)
    Cast whatever you just Fluted for (3)
    Tap your mana (9)
    Now you can just keep tinkering away Retriever/Diver over and over gaining mana each time, then you can flute for Ballista and kill them.

    The only issue with this is that without Rings in the deck you no longer have an easy way to make infinite mana without also having Arcum in play (unless you also have power artifact in your deck, which I don't recommend). There is probably a somewhat more convoluted way of doing it by using Metalwork Colossus as a sac outlet instead but I haven't really thought about it. Being able to assemble infinite mana + win con without using Arcum is possibly difficult enough even with Rings that this shouldn't be a relevant concern.

    I agree with the UUU on the convoke spell being hard to cast, I thought about maybe putting gilded lotus back in the deck because it's a powerful thing to untap with Paradox Engine but that might not be a good enough reason.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 01-18-2017 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #148

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Well, for what it's worth, I've tried this approach after playing Prison Arcum for 3 years, and this is my list at the moment:

    Artifact (23)
    1x Basalt Monolith
    1x Citanul Flute
    1x Chrome Mox
    1x Defense Grid
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Grim Monolith
    1x Lightning Greaves
    1x Lotus Petal
    1x Mana Crypt
    1x Mana Vault
    1x Mox Diamond
    1x Mox Opal
    1x Paradox Engine
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Rings of Brighthearth
    1x Sensei's Divining Top
    1x Sol Ring
    1x Staff of Domination
    1x Static Orb
    1x Swiftfoot Boots
    1x Thorn of Amethyst
    1x Thousand-Year Elixir
    1x Torpor Orb

    Creature (20)
    1x Hangarback Walker
    1x Hedron Crawler
    1x Hope of Ghirapur
    1x Junk Diver
    1x Lodestone Golem
    1x Manakin
    1x Memnite
    1x Metalworker
    1x Millikin
    1x Myr Moonvessel
    1x Myr Retriever
    1x Myr Sire
    1x Ornithopter
    1x Phyrexian Revoker
    1x Plague Myr
    1x Shimmer Myr
    1x Silver Myr
    1x Spellskite
    1x Trinket Mage
    1x Walking Ballista

    Instant (15)
    1x Arcane Denial
    1x Brainstorm
    1x Chain of Vapor
    1x Counterspell
    1x Cyclonic Rift
    1x Dispel
    1x Dramatic reversal
    1x Force of Will
    1x Muddle the Mixture
    1x Negate
    1x Pact of Negation
    1x Spell Pierce
    1x Swan Song
    1x Turn Aside
    1x Whir of Invention

    Sorcery (4)
    1x Fabricate
    1x Preordain
    1x Reshape
    1x Transmute Artifact
    1x Windfall

    Enchantment (4)
    1x Back to Basics
    1x Mystic Remora
    1x Power Artifact

    Planeswalker (1)
    1x Tezzeret the Seeker

    Land (32)
    1x Academy Ruins
    1x Ancient Tomb
    1x Blinkmoth Nexus
    1x Cavern of Souls
    1x Crystal Vein
    1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
    1x Inkmoth Nexus
    1x Inventors' Fair
    19x Island
    1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
    1x Mishra's Factory
    1x Saprazzan Skerry
    1x Seat of the Synod
    1x Strip Mine

    I'm really enjoying Paradox Engine, since Citanul Flute lets you go right into the win that turn. Generate infinite mana through Rings of Brighthearth/Basalt Monolith or Paradox Engine + Myr Retriever + Junk Diver + Basalt Monolith (easier to assemble than it sounds, since you just go grab Monolith after Flute) and then cast either Walking Ballista (preferred) or Hangarback Walker to win.

  9. #149

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Cards you play which I think are definitely not good:
    - Staff of Domination (Only combos with Metalworker, Metalworker isn't searchable by Arcum and needs haste)
    - Power Artifact (only combos with Monoliths and doesn't even win you the game)
    - Shimmer Myr (Although perhaps there is some special combo reason I'm not seeing? It does let you go off at instant speed with flute if you have a ton of mana up but idk if that's worth it)

    Cards you play which I find questionable:
    - Chrome Mox (I don't think you have enough blue cards)
    - Force (Ditto)
    - Static Orb (I'm not entirely against this card but I am confused that you would play it before Winter Orb and Trinisphere and Tangle Wire)
    - Mox Diamond (Not sure that the card disadvantage is worth it)
    - Swiftfoot Boots (Unncessary Redundancy when you have Greaves and Elixir)
    - 2x 0-Drop and 2x 1-Drop might be too many
    - Rings of Brighthearth (As I stated in my previous post it just seems unnecessary now)
    - Cage (Not that I think grave hate is bad but 0 mana vs 1 mana is pretty big for PEngine considerations and I was wondering why not Tormod's Crypt instead)

    Cards that you are not playing which I find questionable:
    - Artificer's Intuition (I'm just baffled that people don't consider this a staple tbh)
    - Some sort of removal that Arcum can tinker out (Spine mainly)
    - Copy artifact (If you feel that Metamorph and Steel are too slow I can get behind that but Copy Artifact is too much value at 2 mana I think)
    - Possessed Portal (Having this card in your deck gives you a very unique angle that can have a high impact on the game for very little opportunity cost, sort of like a less situational Mindslaver. I'm not sure I would cut it, even with the Citanul flute combo available.)
    - Tangle Wire and 3Sphere as I mentioned above.
    - Whir of Invention (Dunno if UUU is realistic but you do play more blue sources than me)
    - Fetchlands (although maybe this is a budget consideration along with Shop and Mana Drain)

    Other commonly played cards have always been kind of marginal (or are marginal now that Paradox Engine is available) and I'm interested to see if you miss having them (or maybe you just never played them in the first place).
    - Myr Turbine
    - Memory Jar
    - Crucible
    - The removal artifacts I talked about above and all of the copy effects
    - Kuldotha Forgemaster

    It's amusing that Citanul Flute has always been available but has never really been played; before Myr Turbine the creature-maker of choice was Nuisance Engine. I'm not sure why Citanul-Ornithopter was never used before because it seems pretty good even without the Engine combo.

    One of the other guys on the MTGS thread seems pretty high on Chalice of the Void, have you had any experience playing this card? It seems far too narrow to me but I guess it's pretty good on 1 (just like every other format I guess).

  10. #150
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    @Kiwi, what are your thoughts for Sphere now in light of the changes? Do you think it's still good enough, specially considering the Engine combo, which requires casting multiple stuff?

    As to Portal, I love the card but considering we only need 1 tap now to win, I think it's safe to drop it. You'll probably never gonna hard cast it anyway. Same with Myr Turbine.
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  11. #151

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Cards you play which I think are definitely not good:
    - Staff of Domination (Only combos with Metalworker, Metalworker isn't searchable by Arcum and needs haste)
    - Power Artifact (only combos with Monoliths and doesn't even win you the game)
    - Shimmer Myr (Although perhaps there is some special combo reason I'm not seeing? It does let you go off at instant speed with flute if you have a ton of mana up but idk if that's worth it)

    Cards you play which I find questionable:
    - Chrome Mox (I don't think you have enough blue cards)
    - Force (Ditto)
    - Static Orb (I'm not entirely against this card but I am confused that you would play it before Winter Orb and Trinisphere and Tangle Wire)
    - Mox Diamond (Not sure that the card disadvantage is worth it)
    - Swiftfoot Boots (Unncessary Redundancy when you have Greaves and Elixir)
    - 2x 0-Drop and 2x 1-Drop might be too many
    - Rings of Brighthearth (As I stated in my previous post it just seems unnecessary now)
    - Cage (Not that I think grave hate is bad but 0 mana vs 1 mana is pretty big for PEngine considerations and I was wondering why not Tormod's Crypt instead)

    Cards that you are not playing which I find questionable:
    - Artificer's Intuition (I'm just baffled that people don't consider this a staple tbh)
    - Some sort of removal that Arcum can tinker out (Spine mainly)
    - Copy artifact (If you feel that Metamorph and Steel are too slow I can get behind that but Copy Artifact is too much value at 2 mana I think)
    - Possessed Portal (Having this card in your deck gives you a very unique angle that can have a high impact on the game for very little opportunity cost, sort of like a less situational Mindslaver. I'm not sure I would cut it, even with the Citanul flute combo available.)
    - Tangle Wire and 3Sphere as I mentioned above.
    - Whir of Invention (Dunno if UUU is realistic but you do play more blue sources than me)
    - Fetchlands (although maybe this is a budget consideration along with Shop and Mana Drain)

    Other commonly played cards have always been kind of marginal (or are marginal now that Paradox Engine is available) and I'm interested to see if you miss having them (or maybe you just never played them in the first place).
    - Myr Turbine
    - Memory Jar
    - Crucible
    - The removal artifacts I talked about above and all of the copy effects
    - Kuldotha Forgemaster

    It's amusing that Citanul Flute has always been available but has never really been played; before Myr Turbine the creature-maker of choice was Nuisance Engine. I'm not sure why Citanul-Ornithopter was never used before because it seems pretty good even without the Engine combo.

    One of the other guys on the MTGS thread seems pretty high on Chalice of the Void, have you had any experience playing this card? It seems far too narrow to me but I guess it's pretty good on 1 (just like every other format I guess).
    For Staff- I don't quite know why you say it only combos with Metalworker when it was my primary win con with Arcum before Paradox Engine. I would religiously go for Monolith - Rings - Staff to draw my whole library and then hard cast my lock pieces, since Rings would let me assemble combo in 2 turns vs spreading it across 3. That's the general purpose for Staff is to give me an out for when I can't reliably bring out Engine (removal, etc.). Power Artifact is just an easy and reliable way to infinite mana and the deck wins through infinite mana, that's all. I find that worth the slot. As for Shimmer Myr... its only purpose was enabling Engine combo at instant speed in the event of drawing it. I'm not super attached to it and can remove it for basically anything you may suggest is good, like Tangle Wire, which I used to run at one point but removed with the revamp.

    For Chrome Mox and Force: The deck is a quarter blue, currently, which is enough to upkeep at least one of them. I'm attached to Force for obvious reasons, but Chrome Mox could probably be Jeweled Amulet, maybe? I dunno, what do you think of Jeweled Amulet?

    For Static vs Winter Orb: My meta is basically Zur, Azami, Breya, Ghave, Food Chain Tazri and Prossh, Teferi Planeswalker, Thrasios of two flavors, Jeleva and Yidris Storm, etc., with anything black running Doomsday or Ad Nauseam. Winter Orb simply isn't valuable in this meta, but Static Orb can affect the variety of Mana Crypts, Mox Diamonds, etc., I see every game and force them to choose if I need to. My largest thing is running only the cards I can hardcast to slow down an early Ad Nauseam win, though oftentimes I simply rely on counter spells to do that if I am not Silenced. Most of these decks don't ramp out lands but instead rely on mana rocks- Prossh and Ghave really being the only exceptions, and they're not quite as bad since they win on turn 5 at most while the others do the nuts on turns 2-4 and win if not stopped by one of us.

    I have 2 of the 0 and 1 drops because they still let me grab one during games I'm low on mana and have to break one to get the combo rolling, initially (if I had to cast and sac Ornithopter to get Paradox Engine, and my only other spells cost 3 mana (rare, but can happen), then I wind up stuck if I can't Flute for something 0 cost. I could probably drop Hope, though, as he's not as good as I had initially hoped (having to attack before Silencing is a lot worse than I was hoping for and is only useful when Arcum has haste).

    Rings seems to provide a lot of value, even after Engine, but considering Engine is a sorcery-speed only combo, I would be worried about being permanently stopped by the instant speed removal everyone already runs especially if they'd discover that Engine is my only enabler for infinite mana at that point. Is that not really something I should worry about?

    Copy Artifact is still very good, you're right. I may pull Hope of Ghirapur for it, now that I am thinking about it (and besides that, my copy doesn't have anywhere else to go...).

    Cage is because of Karador, Yawgmoth's Will, and more. Setting it out basically forces every other deck to tutor/dig through to Chain of Vapor or something to bounce it so they can combo off and win, forcing them to spend more time or resources doing that before they can tutor Doomsday/Ad Nauseam. Protecting Cage basically lets me win against Karador and Yisan without doing anything. I like it a lot more than Crypt right now due to those reasons, but I've kept a Crypt boarded just in case I need to exile something at instant speed since Cage doesn't stop everything.

    I removed Tangle Wire for Thorn of Amethyst after Jeleva repeatedly combo'd out over top of Tangle Wire. I will try Tangle Wire over Static Orb for now, since I basically try to slow down the faster decks until t4-5 so I can go off, myself.

    I had fetches in for when I had Crucible in the deck, but when I removed Crucible, I removed the fetches as well since they provided very marginal benefit after that point (mathematically I don't feel deck thinning was enough of a reason to leave those lands in this deck. I wound up putting all of the blue fetches, from Tarn to Strand, in my own Zur). Crucible and Strip/Fetch was pretty much too slow for my old meta, and my new one is significantly faster than it so I don't really miss Crucible.

    I go back and forth on Spine- oftentimes I've just found that going for the win was a better option than tapping Arcum that one time to remove something. What would you drop for it if you were in my shoes and meta?

    Whir is in the deck, but Portal got cut because I could tap Arcum to slow the game down, or I could tap Arcum and try to win. Portal's only relevant ability is that players can't draw cards but the decks that I would want to utilize this card against (Doomsday/Ad Nauseam decks), can win straight through it and do so on the same turn I could pull it, so I cut it. It's only really relevant against Teferi, Yisan, Karador, and Prossh, here, and I already don't have very much trouble with those decks. Getting Portal down before Ad Nauseam or Doomsday is basically an impossibility at this point: If I have the speed to do it, it means they have a bad hand or aren't drawing what they need in order to cast it early. I've been using Lodestone Golem in its place and, while I can't tutor that with Arcum, Thorn can be if I really need it, though if I manage to get an Arcum around the table or down with haste, I push for the win instead of anything else (these fast as hell decks tend to run 1-2 removal spells per so it's usually up to counters to stop me. It is really fun to windmill slam Arcum on the table while everyone else spent their counters/tapped down to stop Leovold from resolving Ad Nauseam, etc.).

    So, I think I'll put Tangle Wire/Trinisphere back in (leaning more towards Wire right now I guess), and Copy Artifact. I'll drop Shimmer Myr and Static Orb and see how I like the changes. What's your current list looking like, Kiwi?

  12. #152

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Played a handful of games with the AER cards.
    The combo is nuts (obv).
    I cut Rings of Brighthearth and didn't miss it. I also therefore cut Basalt Monolith, because "{3} Tap: Add 3 [Doesn't untap]" isn't a particularly good card when you aren't comboing with it (which is unfortunate because I have a Beta copy but oh well). I won the games using the combo I describe a few posts earlier (cycling through Trawler/Diver to make infinite mana with Paradox Engine then Ballista everybody to death). You have enough mana artifacts to set this up without Basalt because you still have Grim and Mana Vault.

    Chalice of the Void seemed pretty bad and I think I'm off Smokestack for good now (way too slow).
    I also think Crucible might also be too slow to make enough of an impact and cutting Smokestack makes it less useful as well. (Cutting Smokestack also makes Genesis Chamber look much more appealing and I think that card is quite underrated).
    I might be inclined to cut possessed portal but still not 100% on this yet.
    I kept Spine because sometimes killing things is needed (and I did use it) but I cut Disk and OStone (Lattice/Forge are gone)

    I have been impressed with Metalwork Colossus both as a recurring fodder and as a sacrifice outlet for Junk Divers. Whir of Invention surprised me, wasn't as difficult to cast as I thought it might be, but I might have just gotten lucky.

    There was an interesting situation that came up:
    Battlefield:
    Untapped Metalworker
    tapped Grim Monolith
    3 Untapped island
    Arcum in command zone

    Hand:
    Reshape
    Guardian Idol
    Crucible
    Clamp
    Slaver

    I don't think you can actually go off this turn:
    Tap metalworker for 8
    Tap 2 islands and pay 2 (6 in pool), Reshape for Greaves sacrificing Monolith
    Tap island play Arcum (3 in pool)
    Play Guardian Idol (1 in pool)
    Put Greaves on Arcum
    Tap Arcum sac Metalworker
    Find Paradox Engine
    Cast Clamp (0 in pool) untap Guardian Idol and Arcum
    Tap Guardian Idol (1 in pool)

    If you had any 0 drop here you could combo off (cast spell, Engine untaps Guardian Idol, tap Idol for 1, animate Idol, tinker it away for Flute).
    This is the kind of situation why I suggested Tormod's Crypt over Grafdigger's Cage because sometimes you just need Engine triggers.
    You could also combo off if Guardian Idol was an actual Myr by just casting it post-tinker so maybe the actual lesson is that Guardian Idol isn't good enough? Not sure about this.
    Fortunately I still won the game just by playing Greaves Arcum and passing the turn after Clamping Metalworker.

    I cut Myr Turbine and Memory Jar (Jar probably could have been cut a long time ago tbh) and haven't missed either of them so far.

  13. #153
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    ^what's your latest list kombatkiwi?
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  14. #154

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    // 35 Land
    11 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Mishra's Workshop
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Blinkmoth Nexus
    1 Inkmoth Nexus
    1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Buried Ruin
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Ancient Tomb
    1 City of Traitors
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Darksteel Citadel
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Phyrexia's Core
    1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
    1 Crystal Vein
    1 Sea Gate Wreckage
    1 Inventors' Fair
    Sea Gate Wreckage could probably be an Island (because the combo is much more streamlined now it makes grinding a much less important part of the plan, also Citanul Flute is a big part of the grind plan now and doesn't work well with Sea Gate)
    You could play Oboro if you wanted to

    // 31 Artifact
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Grim Monolith
    1 Mox Opal
    1 Spine of Ish Sah
    1 Expedition Map
    1 Lightning Greaves
    1 Skullclamp
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Defense Grid
    1 Paradox Engine
    1 Citanul Flute
    1 Trinisphere
    1 Voltaic Key
    ---- {1} ----
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Guardian Idol
    1 Thousand-Year Elixir
    1 Tangle Wire
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Lotus Petal
    ---- {2} ----
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Aether Spellbomb
    1 Genesis Chamber
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Thought Prison
    1 Possessed Portal
    1 Mindslaver
    1 Mind Stone
    1 Jeweled Amulet
    1 Sculpting Steel
    The different 'tiers' are based on the idea of "If somebody told me to cut this card how strongly would I disagree with them".
    Some cards are low tier because I have played with them a lot and they don't seem to be very essential (Sculpting Steel, Mindslaver etc).
    Others I just don't have much experience with (e.g. Thought Prison) so if you tell me it's bad I can't draw on much to argue. I just wanted to try a bunch of things.
    It wouldn't surprise me if it was actually 100% correct to play e.g. Mind Stone but it doesn't change your overall strategy or give you any significant new gameplay options, and it's so close to many other similar cards it's hard to make a case for it either way.
    Top drops into 'tier 2' status now because you don't need it in the Rings combo anymore.

    // 25 Creature
    1 Silver Myr
    1 Plague Myr
    1 Manakin
    1 Millikin
    1 Trinket Mage
    1 Etherium Sculptor
    1 Junk Diver
    1 Myr Retriever
    1 Spellskite
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Metalworker
    1 Hangarback Walker
    1 Hedron Crawler
    1 Workshop Assistant
    1 Ornithopter
    1 Scrap Trawler
    ---- {1} ----
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Master Transmuter
    1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    1 Lodestone Golem
    1 Vedalken Archmage
    1 Metalwork Colossus
    1 Sage of Lat-Nam
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    ---- {2} -----
    1 Mirran Spy
    - I think it's correct to play all 4 of the Divers
    - Ballista can probably be tier 1, I have this feeling that as 'just a finisher' maybe it's not needed but I don't really know how to justify this. (How else are you supposed to win, tinker up Spine to destroy everyone's permanents and then Mindslaver lock them all so they can't do anything? Maybe? I've even considered playing Perilous Myr and Ticking Gnomes before so on its own it really can't be that bad either).
    - Kuldotha Forgemaster and Lodestone are very close to 'tier 1'. The blue creatures are more questionable.
    - Mirran Spy is just shit I think. I had this idea that you go Spy->Arcum->Flute->Ornithopter->Cast Ornithopter triggering Spy, untap Arcum -> Tinker away the thopter for Engine -> Go off. The problem with this line is that if you replace Spy with e.g. Phyrexian Walker then you just Tinker for Engine first and you still go off at the same time with the same number of resources, except you didn't have to pay 3 mana for a creature.
    - I think that Ornithopter should probably be Memnite for Skullclamp reasons.

    // 2 Enchantment
    1 Artificer's Intuition
    1 Copy Artifact
    Both of these are auto-include imo

    // 2 Instant
    1 Mana Drain
    1 Whir of Invention
    Whir is good assuming you can cast it reliably.
    Drain is also great and is powerful enough to be played in a list with Grid and 3Ball and all this other stuff that makes no sense alongside it.

    // 1 Planeswalker
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker

    // 3 Sorcery
    1 Fabricate
    1 Transmute Artifact
    1 Reshape
    All of these are good

    // 1 Sideboard
    // 1 Creature
    SB: 1 Arcum Dagsson
    The most most obvious change I would make looking at this list is to cut Mirran Spy and put Thorn of Amethyst in.
    I'm still trying to figure out whether I need an answer to the question 'what happens if they play Anguished Unmaking on your Paradox Engine'
    Thought Prison is meant to be a sort of attempt to preempt this as I think a lot of the backup infinites need bad cards that don't do anything (Rings, Power Artifact, etc). If I had to pick one 'bad infinite' I think it would be Staff-Metalworker because it only needs one bad card and the Metalworker is more reliably searchable seeing as Flute is a core part of the deck now.

  15. #155
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    We're around 16-22 cards off (some are personal choices). Of these, I'm looking at the following.

    1. I was wondering, what's the usual casting cost of Metalwork Colossus for you? Noncreature artifact deduction scares me.
    2. Is Defense Grid worth it, even if you're running a small Counterspell package (6 counters)?
    3. I've dropped Kuldotha Forgemaster (was always just a fodder), Voltaic Key (technically, limited use [needs 2 or more-mana producing artifacts to be worth it]. Possessed Portal and Spine of Ish Sah were dropped due to their CMC, but Spine might be making a comeback. On that note, is Spine worth it without some of your artifact-sacrifice cards (Phyrexia's Core, Sage of Lat-Nam)?
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  16. #156

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    We're around 16-22 cards off (some are personal choices). Of these, I'm looking at the following.

    1. I was wondering, what's the usual casting cost of Metalwork Colossus for you? Noncreature artifact deduction scares me.
    2. Is Defense Grid worth it, even if you're running a small Counterspell package (6 counters)?
    3. I've dropped Kuldotha Forgemaster (was always just a fodder), Voltaic Key (technically, limited use [needs 2 or more-mana producing artifacts to be worth it]. Possessed Portal and Spine of Ish Sah were dropped due to their CMC, but Spine might be making a comeback. On that note, is Spine worth it without some of your artifact-sacrifice cards (Phyrexia's Core, Sage of Lat-Nam)?
    1. If you have Flute/Engine then it's already reduced by 10, this hasn't been an issue so far.
    2. Not sure, tutoring for it as a Silence-effect is useful but if you already have counterspells in your hand then you wouldn't need to. I would lean towards still playing it I think.
    3. Voltaic Key was close to dropping a tier
    It's only good with
    Crypt
    Ring
    Vault
    Metalworker
    Flute
    Monolith
    Master Transmuter
    Forgemaster
    Top
    Elixir?
    Ratchet Bomb?

    Possibly not good enough

    I think Kuldotha Forgemaster is better now because before the combo needed more pieces. Now you can use Kuldotha to find Flute, which finds you more artifacts to sac for the 2nd activation. It could still be too costly though, I don't think it's one of the best cards in the deck.

    I would still definitely play Spine even if it didn't have the second ability. I just think that you need an artifact that can act as immediate removal and you're too reliant on your permanents to use Oblivion Stone in most situations. The only other choices as far as I am aware are Unstable Obelisk or Universal Solvent but considering you need 7 mana to activate them and Spine is 7 to cast anyway this doesn't make much sense to me. (They also don't do anything against Stony Silence)

    Edit
    Just won a game through
    - Player A double milling me with Codex Shredder in response to Arcum activation trying to snipe a combo piece
    - Player B controlling Thorn of Amethyst and using Yisan to tutor up caustic caterpillar mid-combo to destroy Paradox Engine (blocked it with Spellskite)
    - Player C controlling Ethersworn Canonist and 3 drop Thalia

    Paradox Engine is such a stupid card
    Lost a game where Voltaic Key didn't do anything.
    Jeweled Amulet is ok, it was like a Lotus Petal that added mana and then I could sac it to Sage of Lat Nam, nothing exciting. It might be worse than any Signet because it can't contribute to mana when you're going off with Paradox engine.
    It occurred to me that Genesis Chamber is very bad against specifically Edric but that might be too much of a corner-case to worry about.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 04-15-2017 at 07:09 AM.

  17. #157
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    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    ^1. You're probably already winning with both Engine and Flute in play though. I'm more interested in scenarios pre-combo. I just can't see how we can reliably cast Metalwork Colossus as fodder pre-combo. (But I bought a foil one just the same)
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  18. #158

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    ^1. You're probably already winning with both Engine and Flute in play though. I'm more interested in scenarios pre-combo. I just can't see how we can reliably cast Metalwork Colossus as fodder pre-combo. (But I bought a foil one just the same)
    Even with with both Engine and Flute you don't win without Arcum (a sac outlet) in play hence why Colossus is there. If this turns out to be too much of a corner case then I will cut it (being a wonky Squee for Atificer's Intuition or a way to ditch Junk Divers for value probably isn't worth it, especially seeing as the deck doesn't have many ways to put it in the graveyard).

    Some people think the artifact sac outlet slot is necessary but are playing Arcbound Ravager instead, which is probably fine. I guess there aren't many situations where Colossus is better.

    If you want you can even use Phyrexian Dreadnought for style points:
    Play Dreadnought
    Sac Retriever, Trawler, Dreadnought

    Trawler triggers
    -> Trawler (3) Return Retriever (2)
    -> Retriever (2) Return Dreadnought (1)
    -> Dreadnought (1) return an 0-drop (0)

    Retriever trigger -> Return Trawler

    Recast everything again, Etc
    Or you could even shoot your guys with Masticore rather than sacrificing them but it's probably harder to get the mana to work that way.

  19. #159

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Even with with both Engine and Flute you don't win without Arcum (a sac outlet) in play hence why Colossus is there. If this turns out to be too much of a corner case then I will cut it (being a wonky Squee for Atificer's Intuition or a way to ditch Junk Divers for value probably isn't worth it, especially seeing as the deck doesn't have many ways to put it in the graveyard).

    Some people think the artifact sac outlet slot is necessary but are playing Arcbound Ravager instead, which is probably fine. I guess there aren't many situations where Colossus is better.

    If you want you can even use Phyrexian Dreadnought for style points:

    Or you could even shoot your guys with Masticore rather than sacrificing them but it's probably harder to get the mana to work that way.
    Actually, winning without Arcanum is simple, just flute for trinket mage and fetch skullclamp. Then you can use clamp to loop retriever and junk diver for the win.

  20. #160

    Re: [EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyTron View Post
    Actually, winning without Arcanum is simple, just flute for trinket mage and fetch skullclamp. Then you can use clamp to loop retriever and junk diver for the win.
    Sure I guess this works, you don't even need to worry about decking yourself before reaching lethal ballista mana because you only need enough to replay Arcum again and equip him with greaves.

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