[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[carefulmug]

Another SCG, another top 8.

And another Balustrade list. Forgoing the extra dredgers and Baubles, this list also eschews Chancellors for a set of MB Unmask.

Feels like it's the Balustrade's version of Force in the main.

I'll keep DRing Whirlwind Riders, but it's cool to see such repeated results whatever the version.

[slave]

Manaless was always competitive in the hands of a skilled pilot.

You also don't have to play Forces if you don't want to.

Whilst I agree with these thoughts, I feel the blue side has increased our game 1 percentages, especially against decks that can run hate in the main, due in part to having force there, combined with extra acceleration from probe.
Since winning game1 has always been a must for this deck, I feel this is a big thing.

To argue whether blue is stronger than green, or even fearless, will be a personal decision though, as I find hate varies greatly.
For me, I find postboard to be easier to win with the blue side, and more importantly, has the ability to buy us time by countering a combo piece > something green/fearless is stuck being a spectator to.

[Final Fortune]

Whilst I agree with these thoughts, I feel the blue side has increased our game 1 percentages, especially against decks that can run hate in the main, due in part to having force there, combined with extra acceleration from probe.
Since winning game1 has always been a must for this deck, I feel this is a big thing.

To argue whether blue is stronger than green, or even fearless, will be a personal decision though, as I find hate varies greatly.
For me, I find postboard to be easier to win with the blue side, and more importantly, has the ability to buy us time by countering a combo piece > something green/fearless is stuck being a spectator to.

I think the most important aspect of Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal is the opponent can't just mulligan into a hate card and win any more, altho' I really don't think the deck is as viable as other people think it is because once you've faced these Blade decks with 4 Deathrite Shaman and 3 Rest in Peace you'll just want to pick up something else entirely.

[Thrasher]

I think the most important aspect of Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal is the opponent can't just mulligan into a hate card and win any more, altho' I really don't think the deck is as viable as other people think it is because once you've faced these Blade decks with 4 Deathrite Shaman and 3 Rest in Peace you'll just want to pick up something else entirely.

Chancellor of the Annex has sent you a friend request.
"Hey there, let's eat deathblade alive".

Inviato dal mio GT-I8190 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Final Fortune]

Chancellor of the Annex has sent you a friend request.
"Hey there, let's eat deathblade alive".

Inviato dal mio GT-I8190 utilizzando Tapatalk

I've tried, 7 graveyard cards is about where I draw the line with Dredge, especially when it's Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace because I can't think of a more hateful environment other than 4 Leyline of the Void.

I think you can still Top 8 with the deck, but it's really hard to win a tournament with it.

[slave]

I think you can still Top 8 with the deck, but it's really hard to win a tournament with it.

I think this is fair. The top decks can be scary fast, or just have an abundance of answers.....

[Mr. Froggy]

I think the deck has the potential to win a major tournament in this meta since it's putting up results.

Now once the deck picks up some more, hello 20$ Ichorids. ;)

[Michael Keller]

I certainly hope not.

One of the biggest driving factors of the deck's success is its "boogeyman" effect. Given its relatively cheap cost to build, a lot of new players will pick it up.

Which means welcome back Leyline of the Void.

[Darklingske]

In my meta, Leyline ot Void is already picking up again. That -and the abundance of DRS, Cage & RiP- is the reason I'm currently not playing Ichorid anymore.

[Thrasher]

I've never had problems in the deathblade matchup, with chancellor. The only scary start they can do is discard t1+ hate t2, otherwise it's completely manageable.

If manaless increases in popularity, we might see some more rips/cages, which may push the fearless versions out of the scene, but the force/shoal version would probably survive. At least until leyline happens.

I doubt we'll see a lot of leylines, though, the metagame is too variegated to allow such narrow cards. I hope i'm not wrong.



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[Vlad Teppes]

That's why I don't recomend dredge (any variation of it) as your only legacy deck.
Grab some cheap aggro or just use the manabase and LED to build T.E.S, it messes them up big time.
Manaless is a cool deck, it was the deck that brought me back to legacy, I will grab the FOWs and try out the blue package to see how it works.

[Mr. Froggy]

That's why I don't recomend dredge (any variation of it) as your only legacy deck.
Grab some cheap aggro or just use the manabase and LED to build T.E.S, it messes them up big time.
Manaless is a cool deck, it was the deck that brought me back to legacy, I will grab the FOWs and try out the blue package to see how it works.

I play D&T and I built Manaless because it was dirt cheap, and I wanted an unfair deck that could prey on unprepared opponents.

[igri_is_a_bk]

That was me in the top 8. I just wanted to chime in that Unmask was absolutely INSANE all day. As a MB card, it was much better than Force of Will because it CAN actually promote your own game plan. In a couple game twos over the tournament I drew a starting seven with Unmask. My opponents put me on the play about half the time and in both of these situations they did so I started with an Unmask on myself. Resolved both times. At that point I was able to Probe or Wraith my way into a first turn play as my opponent expected a free card while essentially being on the play. Sorry to disappoint, bra.

In fact, I should have done that in the quarterfinals during game two but I wasn't feeling risky since Steve had FoW in his deck and DRS already deployed. The fact game two was a free roll was all the more compelling reason to go for it. I played fearless all day, then got scared on camera so that's a little disappointing. But yeah, it would have gave me a better chance of winning.

And this hardly matters, but I had three Ashen Riders in the board since SCG mistyped that.

[P-E]

Good job anyway ^^
that's always good to see manaless top8

[Michael Keller]

That was me in the top 8. I just wanted to chime in that Unmask was absolutely INSANE all day. As a MB card, it was much better than Force of Will because it CAN actually promote your own game plan. In a couple game twos over the tournament I drew a starting seven with Unmask. My opponents put me on the play about half the time and in both of these situations they did so I started with an Unmask on myself. Resolved both times. At that point I was able to Probe or Wraith my way into a first turn play as my opponent expected a free card while essentially being on the play. Sorry to disappoint, bra.

In fact, I should have done that in the quarterfinals during game two but I wasn't feeling risky since Steve had FoW in his deck and DRS already deployed. The fact game two was a free roll was all the more compelling reason to go for it. I played fearless all day, then got scared on camera so that's a little disappointing. But yeah, it would have gave me a better chance of winning.

Congrats on the finish.

I still feel that Unmask is inferior to Force of Will right now. Unmask is inherently proactive and forces the player running it to fire it off immediately for any effect, which puts you down to six on the draw. Force let's you play the reactive role and doesn't necessitate you having to fire it off immediately - which is key when needing to discard.

It's also superior against fast combo and punishes top-deck hate draws. Unmask can't do that.

[TableTopMagic]

Played a SCG Legacy Open Saturday with Blue Manaless. Went 3-0-1
Played Elves Twice, RUG Delver, and Countertop.

RUG was the Draw with me having lethal on the board and him stalling game 3.

I will do a quick over view tonight on my thought on the deck over Spy builds.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I agree FoW out of the SB is better than Unmask for the purpose of fighting hate. But g1, Unmask is a much better card. There are very few instances you would need FoW g1 that I wouldn't even bother wasting space on stuff like Whirlpool Rider (which is so much worse than Spy). In testing, that Rider was a nonbo whenever I had a hand with Phantasmagorian and it was to support something I definitely didn't need the first game. I can tell you I didn't lose a single game one even without Force of Will and sideboarded exactly one time the whole tournament against Lands where I got to bring in my graveyard hate. Otherwise, I just played the same 60 each game. That tells me FoW is a sideboard card and probably a good one in conjunction with Disrupting Shoal. Whirpool Rider, on the other hand, is a waste of space no matter where you try to fit him.

[Michael Keller]

I agree FoW out of the SB is better than Unmask for the purpose of fighting hate. But g1, Unmask is a much better card. There are very few instances you would need FoW g1 that I wouldn't even bother wasting space on stuff like Whirlpool Rider (which is so much worse than Spy). In testing, that Rider was a nonbo whenever I had a hand with Phantasmagorian and it was to support something I definitely didn't need the first game. I can tell you I didn't lose a single game one even without Force of Will and sideboarded exactly one time the whole tournament against Lands where I got to bring in my graveyard hate. Otherwise, I just played the same 60 each game. That tells me FoW is a sideboard card and probably a good one in conjunction with Disrupting Shoal. Whirpool Rider, on the other hand, is a waste of space no matter where you try to fit him.

I think if you enlighten us as to what you played against in the Swiss, I think we can get a better understanding of your reasoning. You're telling us that Unmask is a much better card game one, but your sample size is one tournament. Did you play against Storm or anything a turn faster than Manaless?

Phantasmagorian and Whirlpool Rider is hardly the least of the deck's worries. At minimum, it's going to be a Sphinx of Lost Truths. At best, it's going to be a Contract from Below. See, this is why I think it's incredibly deceiving to believe that the Spy version is better than other variations of Manaless. It performs well at SC-Opens because the players aren't adequately prepared to deal with it. I'd also mention the level of skill these folks bring to the table in that regard. To say that you navigated through a field full of hate like Rest in Peace, Cage, etc. tells me that you either had great match-ups, or your opponents had little hate to deal with a deck like Manaless Dredge.

With the blue package, Rider strictly fits the bill. The whole purpose of Shoal out of the board is to counter Rest in Peace and, to a lesser extent, Cage. There is no creature in Magic: the Gathering that works better in conjunction with those cards in this variation of this archetype than Whirlpool Rider. Spy is fine in different builds, but not the blue variation with counters.

[Acclimation]

Unmask seems like a much better game 1 card though. It functions as both protection and business.

We have a similar argument in the Tinfins thread between discard and counterspells every couple of months or so. Being able to use the discard against your opponent while using that same slot as an enabler for your "combo" makes your g1 percentages go up higher.



Outside of potential space issues, what is to stop you from running Unmask main, and Force in the side, just swapping the two when relevant?

[Final Fortune]

Unmask is a worse card than Force of Will MD, and I championed for Unmask in the past, because it doesn't do anything to stop combo or Deathrite Shaman and only does something to stop Show&Tell and Stoneforge Mystic decks. The only reason to play Unmask is to play Balustrade Spy, and I don't think your choice of Griselbrand, Balustrade Spy or Whirlpool Rider really makes a difference on whether or not the deck will win or lose a match. I'm not even confident Unmask and Balustrade Spy is any better than Dryad Arbor and Griselbrand, which I came to prefer once I realized Dryad Arbor is consistently more disruptive vs combo and accelerates your own combo while giving the deck some resiliency vs tax effects and you could play Unmask just as well if you really wanted to.

I don't have anything against Balustrade Spy or the fearless approach, it's certainly the cheapest way to play the deck, but it doesn't have any significant benefits to the MD and I'd say it's strictly worse if you're playing in a metagame where 3xRIP is in every SB. I mean you could probably auto-pilot manaless dredge into the final rounds, but once you get there you've got nothing to push your way thru' to 1st place unless you have Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal and even then your fate is squarely in the hands of your opening 8.

But hell, honestly I hope you keep playing it because anything that makes it harder for Storm to name the right card with Cabal Therapy is doing us all a favor. I actually have the Chancellor/Unmask/Spy list sleeved up right now just because my FoWs are off doing better things, but if I had to play the deck as my daily driver there's like no way I'd play it without Force.