Sure, crypt and relic are annoying, but that has nothing to do with force or shoal. If you can't deal with relic, that's not a problem of the blue side. The blue side is aimed at fighting rip more than anything else, if you don't find enough of those you can play without shoal, that's your choice.
Also, unmask is a good card, but it's bad at dealing with hate.
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Because shoal pitches to force. For force to be decent, we need a certain amount of blue (or more).Originally Posted by ajfirecracker
Fair enough regarding Rest in Peace being the second most played hate card, however Rest in Peace is a younger card than Surgical Extraction and has only seen wide spread adoption since True Name Nemesis was printed so I'd say I'm still right as far as recent events are concerned and moving forward. I may be a bit biased but my meta game generally seems to be ahead of the curve in the sense that UBWg is fast becoming the premier True Name Nemesis deck in the format and they play Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace. I'm kind of surprised people are still on UWR, but I guess it just takes time for people to put two and two together.
Regardless, even if Rest in Peace is off by 100 cards, which is a bit misleading because people tend to play more Surgical Extractions than Rest in Peace because it can be tutored for with Enlightened Tutor, the card is far more devastating and definitely what you should be afraid of.
I reject the idea that Whirlpool Rider is warping the MD, if I had known about Whirlpool Rider and Whirlpool Drake I would have used those over Cephalid Sage back in the day. Sometimes certain cards just aren't re-evaluated the way they should be, we probably skipped over Whirlpool Drake because the deck originated with LED. The card just does what it needs to do and supports our anti-hate plan vs the worst hate card in the format right now, that just seems like a cohesive game plan to me.
You can't ignore Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb but honestly 1 grave yard wipe hardly guarantees victory, RIP is GG and the most aptly named card ever.
I'm just saying the blue version of this deck is the best from all of the versions I've tested, but other versions are definitely playable. I actually MD Chancellor and SB Force of Will right now because I think that's the best way to increase your win rate vs the format and Deathrite Shaman being a universal 1cc Planeswalker but as far as I'm concerned Gitaxian Probe and Whirlwind Rider are staples in the MD because they enable your SB.
I counted decks, not cards.
I gave people a full year to adopt Rest in Peace.
That's fine, honestly I'm just looking at the DTB and current meta game progression because I really don't care about anything pre-TNN. Look at how long it took people to realize RUG was dead as soon as TNN was printed, people are slow to catch on but they get their eventually.
The pitch-counters have the obvious interoperability with other blue cards in the deck. It seems like the anchor of this conversation is whether or not Whirlpool Rider is good enough to run with a counter build, which it is. Let's not forget that countering other key spells against combo that have a converted mana cost of two can be very good. Shoals also pitch to other Shoals, which winds up being very good. Whirlpool Rider fits the bill not just because of his cost, but for what he does.
So we were talking about whether or not Rider is also worth running based on how many cards he's going to be dredging for. Okay, so let's say we have a Phantasmagorian in our hand to start the game off. We draw and discard it for the turn. Assuming we don't have a second one, we dump six cards - keeping one in our hand - and bring Phantasmagorian back. That's two cards in hand now. Then we move to dredge for our turn, making three cards in our hand. We then Dread Return Rider.
For all intents and purposes - at the very worst - we've just pulled off a Sphinx of Lost Truths. This is the worst-case scenario for a turn-two combo. That seems just fine with me, because if I'm not going to flip my deck that turn like I would with a Spy I'm either going to fill the battlefield with zombies and rip your hand apart with multiple Cabal Therapy or I'm going to continue Dread Returning until the game is effectively over. Best case scenario, Rider is a Contract from Below and blows the game wide open. The icing on the cake is its converted mana cost, which is perfect for what the blue shell is trying to do.
It should be noted that Whirlpool Rider would likely be nullified in the blue-based config without the presence of Disrupting Shoal. The redundancy of multiple counters is what makes the version worth playing because it gives you a chance to fight hate. The hard focus on Shoal is to generally stop Rest in Peace, and there is absolutely no creature that exists in the entire game that does what Rider does - for its critically pertinent cost. The reason I run Force of Will main because it frees up space out of the board and still acts as the best free hard-counter in the game, no matter the situation. I think that's a distinct advantage most people would agree with - especially in an archetype mired for its ability to fight through just about anything. Rider conveniently pitches to Force, which is a huge bonus.
Again, there are a variety of ways you can go with the archetype, and Spy is just fine. I have always been an advocate of the cheapest, most effective decks in the format. But I also don't want convenience to impede what could in fact be arguably the most resilient version of Manaless Dredge we've ever seen.
I was actually at the Milwaukee SCG Open and I wanted to run two Unmasks in the main of my Blue Manaless, but I went with two Contagions instead. I played at the last SCG in Milwaukee I went 6-3 and placed 40th. In 9 rounds I went threw 3 "Rock" style decks with DRS and a Elves deck. So I thought Contagion was where I needed to be as my open 2 slots for this event. I felt pretty sold about that choice after I went 3-0-1 in the 60+ man Open trial the day before beat two Elves deck... Well I was wrong. I did so well the next morning before the Legacy open I was checking out the dealer both and they sold out of all the RIPs, Relics, and Cages before 9 am. lol
I didn't do amazing in the open. In the first 4 rounds everyone knew the deck and also happened to be a Manaless player, just not playing Manaless that day. That was pretty crazy. I did manage to be Reanimator which is a horrible match up. Countered lots of Cages threw out the day and the day before.
The fastest version of the deck is the Unmask version with additional Baubles if you can fit those and then Spy or Griselbrand can interchangeably be your finisher. It's not the Dryad Arbor version because they can't win on t1. You have to get remarkably lucky, but it's the only version that can do that.
Edit - on second thought, Baubles don't actually increase t1 speed. Unless there is another zero mana cantrip, I was on the fastest version.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
Who is the deck more fast?
It's not, Gitaxian Probe + Dryad Arbor + Griselbrand is the fastest average combo kill, I did like a bazillion gold fishes to test this back in the day with a lot of odd cards like Chancellor of the Forge.
I don't care about T1 wins, those are a complete fluke.
The deck wins faster with Unmask because you can target yourself with the Unmask, target a dredger, then dredge for as many Gitaxian Probes or Street Wraiths as you have in hand. This is possible on the first turn, even on the play.
It doesn't seem like it would happen very often, but, technically, it seems Unmask + Cantrips has the earliest possible kill in all the Manaless variations.
Okay, you may not care, but doesn't change facts. So while you say it's not - it actually is. If you can play Dryad Arbor and Unmask then you probably do have the absolute fastest version with cards that are good enough. T1 wins aren't even the whole story behind starting Unmasking yourself t1. It's just a better play than being on the draw since you're a turn ahead. Why does that not matter? I dunno.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
Are you saying that I should choose to put myself on the play in hopes of having unmask and cantrip? I can see game two when and if the opponent puts you on the play, then unmask may prove useful avoiding timewalk. Maybe I dont quite understand because I never want to be on the play with manaless. I think its safe to say that rip is here to stay, if thats the case I feel much more confident running manaless blue.
Because you're opening yourself up to a blowout if an opponent either counters it or draws into hate their first turn. I know Unmask *can* do that, but that's really a scary line of play - especially game two having been put on the play.
No, you won't have a choice for g2 most likely. If they know what to do though, you will be on the play for g2.
This is true. You are taking a risk by casting Unmask t1. My justification is that G2 is a free roll a vast majority of the time, so going for it and getting shut down isn't the end of the world. But they have to have Force of Will + blue card + hate card to set you so far back that you lose. It can happen, but I like to play risky g2 (despite my showing on camera).
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
I'm pretty sure he meant that unmasking on t1 on the draw and playing street wraith/probe is effectively the same as being on the play (you gain one turn with that line of play).
It's a risky move, but since people here were talking about raw speed i guess it's fine.
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The bottom line is that there are a variety of versions of this deck that work and are capable of punishing the unprepared or weak hands. You could honestly run an eight-Bauble list and win a Grand Prix.
It just has raw power and matters as to what you're aiming to do. Everything outside of the core is just aesthetic fluff to accommodate the needs of the pilot.
With that said, we should respect others' lists and ideas.
Igri and thrasher, thank you for the clarification.
I agree wholeheartedly with this.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
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