[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Michael Keller]

I had been thinking of something lately, should I try Surgical Extraction in the SB? It could help vs RiP as well as giving game against Combo decks.

My thought was, Cabal Therapy RiP, Extract the rest (or is this too Magical Christmasland-y?)

Most decks running Rest in Peace run it as a two-of, three tops. You're likely to only run into one a game, which you can counter.

That makes Extraction a bit more situational, and not really worth the slot.

[ajfirecracker]

@Hollywood

Just wanted to say hi, I haven't been back to this thread since the early days and I'm a big fan of the Force builds. It's great to see you've kept with it and found some success.

What do you think of Laboratory Maniac in the blue builds as a win-con that's pitchable to Force and Shoal?

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood

Just wanted to say hi, I haven't been back to this thread since the early days and I'm a big fan of the Force builds. It's great to see you've kept with it and found some success.

What do you think of Laboratory Maniac in the blue builds as a win-con that's pitchable to Force and Shoal?

Thanks! Awesome to hear - hope all is well.

As for Laboratory Maniac: it's a decent choice, but I'm not sure it's better than Rider. I get that it serves double-duty as a win-condition and a card to exile to Force and Shoal, but it's a bit more conditional and would probably work better in a Spy build. Rider's converted mana cost is what makes it the premier choice with Shoal to stop Rest in Peace.

The card just fits so well in the fabric of the deck, I can't see it ever being replaced as long as counters remain the best option in Manaless Dredge.

[ajfirecracker]

As for Laboratory Maniac: it's a decent choice, but I'm not sure it's better than Rider. I get that it serves double-duty as a win-condition and a card to exile to Force and Shoal, but it's a bit more conditional and would probably work better in a Spy build. Rider's converted mana cost is what makes it the premier choice with Shoal to stop Rest in Peace.

The card just fits so well in the fabric of the deck, I can't see it ever being replaced as long as counters remain the best option in Manaless Dredge.

I'm talking about the Flayer of the Hatebound slot. Flayer is vulnerable to much of the same removal (not all, mind you) and Whirlpool Rider should dredge ballpark 35 cards, easily enough to dredge+draw your deck by chaining multiples.

Dread Return for the first Rider + Dread Return for Lab Maniac + Dread Return 2nd Rider is still only 3 DR, so it doesn't really cut into "aggro" Returns (mostly on Troll) any more than Rider->Flayer->Troll would.

Another question: Why did you sideboard Leyline of Sanctity in the 13th-place BoM qualifier over Mindbreak Trap? I get that Leyline can stop targeted hate, but so do counters (or just being Manaless Dredge for 2-3 extra turns, while Sanctity for sure requires 1 extra turn).

[Holly]

He covered the Leyline topic a lot the last days.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...932&pp=&page=3

[ajfirecracker]

He covered the Leyline topic a lot the last days.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...932&pp=&page=3

bad link

[Holly]

Works for me, if it doesnt work for you. Right upper corner, advanced search this thread for Michael Keller & Leyline.

[Michael Keller]

I'm talking about the Flayer of the Hatebound slot. Flayer is vulnerable to much of the same removal (not all, mind you) and Whirlpool Rider should dredge ballpark 35 cards, easily enough to dredge+draw your deck by chaining multiples.

Flayer is just an alternate way of finishing the game that has more utility than Laboratory Maniac. Maniac is dependent on you having to dredge through your entire deck to win the game in a single turn. While that's certainly possible off of a Rider, the effect Flayer has to the board state is immediate. If we're talking a one on one scenario where one is Dread Returned into play over the other, then Flayer should win out based on its over utility and ability to deal a serious amount of damage in a hurry.

The Flayer-Troll combination has been a staple of the archetype for years as you know, and for good reason: it works. Maniac in play by itself doesn't really do much.

Another question: Why did you sideboard Leyline of Sanctity in the 13th-place BoM qualifier over Mindbreak Trap? I get that Leyline can stop targeted hate, but so do counters (or just being Manaless Dredge for 2-3 extra turns, while Sanctity for sure requires 1 extra turn).

I prefer Leyline over Trap based on its overall versatility in different match-ups. I boarded it in against Storm because of Trap's susceptibility to targeted discard. The ability for an opponent to do that effectively makes Trap useless unless it's against an all-in combo deck with no protection - which Force can handle on its own anyhow. Leyline intricately forces a combo player to bypass their targeted method of kill (namely Tendrils) and put them on an Empty the Warrens plan. In order for that to work, your opponent will need to generate mana and cast Tutors and Wishes - both of which eat counters. Targeted discard is just a pain, and honestly hurts.

I get that Chancellor can be good and can blank turn-one discard, but come on - against Storm, that's the least of our worries. If an opponent gets two or three turns, that card isn't going to matter when they've just paid an extra mana to rip the card out of our hands and kill us with a lethal Tendrils. Empty the Warrens all-in unprotected against a Leyline seems much better to me, in addition to the counters we have and ability to out-combo the Storm player by forcing them to pass the turns - several times, possibly - even after an Empty to give us a chance to win.

And remember, the key point here is an opponent actually having to naturally have Empty in their hand, which can be a little tricky. Aside from that, if I have a Leyline out and an opponent is going all-in on Wish or Tutor with X-Y-Z mana floating, if I have a counter, that's eating it. And there's no way for them to know - not with Probe, Duress, Thoughtseize, nothing. It's all-in or bust, which I love forcing on them.

It's a tired discussion, but I like Leyline better because it does so much more against so many other match-ups and individual hate-cards alone.

[P-E]

Leyline is great if you have 12 post/lands in your meta too , being protected from bog and copied bog with vesuva is great ^^

[ajfirecracker]

I prefer Leyline over Trap based on its overall versatility in different match-ups. I boarded it in against Storm because of Trap's susceptibility to targeted discard. The ability for an opponent to do that effectively makes Trap useless unless it's against an all-in combo deck with no protection - which Force can handle on its own anyhow. Leyline intricately forces a combo player to bypass their targeted method of kill (namely Tendrils) and put them on an Empty the Warrens plan. In order for that to work, your opponent will need to generate mana and cast Tutors and Wishes - both of which eat counters. Targeted discard is just a pain, and honestly hurts.

...

And remember, the key point here is an opponent actually having to naturally have Empty in their hand, which can be a little tricky. Aside from that, if I have a Leyline out and an opponent is going all-in on Wish or Tutor with X-Y-Z mana floating, if I have a counter, that's eating it. And there's no way for them to know - not with Probe, Duress, Thoughtseize, nothing. It's all-in or bust, which I love forcing on them.

It's a tired discussion, but I like Leyline better because it does so much more against so many other match-ups and individual hate-cards alone.

Has Leyline actually been doing good work when you don't have additional hate/counters in hand? That situation to me seems like the most important advantage of Mindbreak Trap. I would usually expect bounce or combo-into-Empty (remember, we're discussing when you don't have the other hate/counters) to just kill you anyway. On the other hand, Mindbreak by itself has a chance of stopping them cold, as detailed in this article by some guy named "Hollywood". According to him, it may be "one of the most important cards to find its way into the sideboard".



What changed your mind?

[wuberg]

If we assume that we want to play Leyline of Sanctity, wouldn't Serum Powder be a pretty good compliment? There's been some discussion in the thread that Serum Powder performed favorably in a Dryad Arbor / Bloodghast build, but am I missing something why Powder wouldn't be a good idea in a Whirlpool / FoW build? There's only a 39.9% chance that we draw Leyline in the opening hand, but adding e.g. 3 Serum Powder would raise the probability of Leyline or Powder in the opening hand to 60.1%. Needless to say, Serum Powder is of course completely dead when it hits the graveyard and steals slots from other utility cards, so the local meta will have to decide if one can give up those slots for Powder or not.

What are your thoughts on Leyline together with Powder in a Whirlpool / FoW build? I only picked up this decks a weeks ago so it will take quite some time before my testing will yield any reliable conclusion ;)

[Michael Keller]

Has Leyline actually been doing good work when you don't have additional hate/counters in hand? That situation to me seems like the most important advantage of Mindbreak Trap. I would usually expect bounce or combo-into-Empty (remember, we're discussing when you don't have the other hate/counters) to just kill you anyway. On the other hand, Mindbreak by itself has a chance of stopping them cold, as detailed in this article by some guy named "Hollywood". According to him, it may be "one of the most important cards to find its way into the sideboard".



What changed your mind?

That was a few years back when my perception on the sideboard was a little different. I was also running Arbors back then.

Don't get me wrong, Trap is good. I just find Leyline to be more overall useful.

[Mr. Froggy]

Here's my list:

4 Dryad Arbor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Dread Return
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Griselbrand

It hasn't changed much but still packs a hell of a punch.

I don't want to try the Blue-build because I feel it goes too much against Manaless's motto (never use the stack). :)

[Thrasher]

So you switched to fearless? Don't you feel the need of an answer to hate?

[Mr. Froggy]

So you switched to fearless? Don't you feel the need of an answer to hate?

I do that with my SB mostly, as in Claim/LoS/Trap.

I'm thinking of dropping the Claim Package though.

[joemauer]

I think the addition of Force of Will in manaless dredge has finally made the deck competitive. Still somewhat of a glass cannon, but FoW has made the deck much more competitive.

Sadly manaless is no longer a budget deck.

[Michael Keller]

I think the addition of Force of Will in manaless dredge has finally made the deck competitive. Still somewhat of a glass cannon, but FoW has made the deck much more competitive.

Sadly manaless is no longer a budget deck.

Manaless was always competitive in the hands of a skilled pilot.

You also don't have to play Forces if you don't want to.

[joemauer]

Manaless was always competitive in the hands of a skilled pilot.

You also don't have to play Forces if you don't want to.

Force of Will is a staple in the format for several reasons. If a deck can handle playing Force of Will(enough blue cards & won't hinder the goal of the deck) in it then it should.

I suppose the deck was somewhat competitive(post mental misstep) before the addition of Force of Will, but it was the definition of a glass cannon.

Also, Force of Will helps tremendously against the deck's toughest matchup: fast combo.

[Thrasher]

I do that with my SB mostly, as in Claim/LoS/Trap.

I'm thinking of dropping the Claim Package though.

Yeah, that makes sense. Claim has never been effective for me,anyway.

Inviato dal mio GT-I8190 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Mr. Froggy]

I find it awesome how much the deck has picked up these past few weeks. :)

It's the bane of MODO and has been putting up results a couple of times. :)