Me.Originally Posted by Shade909
If you draw your first seven and you see a Force / Shoal without a blue pitch AND you're expecting a RiP / Cage, simply go for the draw -> discard way until you'll find a pitch.
Mulligans are not to be considered.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Just throwing some variation out here: I'm running with this MB at the moment. The 2 FoWs may have some people (legitly) thinking if it's worth it, though it does make sure your SB has more options, and I'm able to run Chancellor. I've been trying to find a decent SB, but honestly - it _really_ depends on the meta. I am having a ton of difficulties against ANT, and I'm not sure what to run against it: Leyline of Sanctity _and_ Mindbreak Trap? Any other options here? With this MB the 3-4 shoals and 2 FoWs seem mandatory. Suggestions are welcome.
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Whirlpool Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Force of Will
I would add another FoW. It seems to me that if you want use FoW, increasing your chances of hitting one (even marginally) and gaining another blue card to pitch is worth it. I realize, however, that this is the more common route.
DDD / Death & Taxes
You know [and this is just a thought], but if you dredge enough cards game one for an opponent to see Force of Wills hit the bin, then fake out like you're boarding into a good deal of cards, it's possible you can throw them off into playing more conservatively games two and three and just stick with the Forces to do the job alone.
This seems more applicable to non-glass-cannon decks, though,
EDIT: I'll be switching back to Manaless again; I miss it too much.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 08-26-2014 at 01:05 PM.
Welcome back! Yeah, it seems as good a time as ever to play graveyard strategies. When the maximum number of hate cards people play is three, we should do just fine.
@FoW subject
I don't think you want to tip the fact you have Forces during g1. The mb needs to be streamlined and the cards you add warp your Dread Return numbers too much to be played. When the Forces do come in, you want it to be a complete surprise. If your opponent saw a Whirlpool Rider, they would know what's up, and frankly, I've never thought that card has been good enough. It doesn't work well with Phant, which is our best t1 play.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
For what it's worth, I'm exploring other options aside from the blue build. This includes older builds with Arbors and the like.
That's always worth something :-).
I see how you wouldn't want to show your FoWs to make them play carelessly (e.g. Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage turn 1, or RiP turn 2 without counter backup. You do kind of need the riders though to make FoW worthwhile. Let me think about it.
I'm kind of tinkering with the blue-based list again with some changes. I'll post them later!
Looking forward to it!
DDD / Death & Taxes
Great to see you back!
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
How do you guys feel about Snapback as an option in the blue-based build? Free spell, pitches to Shoal, has some legitimate utility against opposing creatures.
My first thoughts on this card were:
1. Yeah, I didn't know it
2. The only creature I care about is DRS in Game 1 most of the times.
3. Chancellor of the Annex as additional out to T1 DRS serves this role while having broader application.
Never tested this card. Do you think it is worth the slot? Why?
Doesn't help against Thalia but it does against elesh and griselbrand.
Helps against Gaddock Teeg. Too, though it's not like maverick isn't a lost cause anyway..
I took the shittiest version ever to a legacy tournament I stumbled upon yesterday... I was still building the deck, but I wanted to play anyway, and I hit 6th place out of 24 (which is enormous fun when you're playing with a deck worth as much as 1 Force of Will):
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Ballustrade Spy
0 Phantasmagorian
1 Nether Shadow
1 Contagion
3 Gigapede
3 Disrupting Shoal
Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
Round 1 | Esper Stoneblade | 2 - 0
Game 1, Contagion on his Batterskull fetched with Stoneblade Mystic to buy myself time, combo off
Game 2, Combo off early, done
Round 2 | | 2 - 1
Game 1 I combo off early, not a lot to say here
Game 2 I'm lacking my Ichorids and Narcomoebas, he has 2 FoWs and 1 Spell Pierces and he just beats me to death with 2 True-Name Nemesis and a Delver of Secrets.
Game 3 I combo off with a Whirlpool Rider, and I didn't have enough creatures/Cabal Therapies left to check his hand, and he STPs my Flayer of the Hatebound. Luckily, Whirlpool Rider left 1 (!) card left in my deck, so I can attack with my GGT, Nether Shadow and Ichorids next turn - which he sees, and scoops
Round 3 | Maverick god no Maverick | 2 - 1
Game 1 I get lucky with comboing off. He had 2 dual lands, Dryad Arbor, and Wasteland in play, I had one Bridge from Below in my graveyard. I can combo off, and I start with flashbacking Cabal Therapy on myself - in response, he kills his Dryad Arbor with his Wasteland. Detail is: he also had a Qasali Pridemage, and an untapped, no summoning sickness Stoneforge Mystic in play and a Jitte in his hand. I continue with calling Bridge from Below to my Therapy, discarding one. I continue to combo off, and after he scoops he realises that he could have tapped the Dryad Arbor for mana before killing it off.
Game 2, he mulligans to 5, I mulligan to 6: I have a hand with a GGT, Gitaxian Probe, and Street Wraith and hope for the best. The Street Wraith cycle does not hit a dredger and he gets Thalia out the turn after.
Game 3, I forgot what I have, but he starts out with a Leyline of Sanctity, and Teeg together with a Sword of Fire and Ice. He pounds me 2 or 3 times, then I manage to get 2 zombies out but of course he slams down a Noble Hierarch before he attacks again with his Teeg.
Round 4 | Reanimator | 2 - 1
Game 1 he cycles through his deck with a couple of Careful Studies, and I combo off.
Game 2 I side in my only sideboard cards, Faerie Macabre. I get a hand with a Street Wraith, GGT and a Probe and decide to (stupid) keep it. He goes Entomb, Elesh Norn, Exhume. I scoop.
Game 3 I start with Faerie Macabre in a decent hand. He tries the same as last game but with Reanimate, and I Macabre him. A couple turns later I grind out his hand, and combo off.
Round 5 | Miracles | 2 - 0
I'm not sure what exactly happened here, but I know I played through some counterspells and picked his hand apart. It's amazingly cool to get Dazed, count the cards in his hand, name FoW to get it out whatever he does - and combo off the same turn.
T8!
Knockout round 1 | The_same_Maverick_player | 2 - 1
I win game 1 by making a shitton of zombies.
Game 2 has a T2 Thalia, and I have nothing to do against it, and Stoneforge Jitte follows.
Game 3 again a Thalia T2, and rapid succession of other wrecking white stuff.
Things learnt:
* 4 Nether Shadow is a must
* Post-Sideboard 3 Disrupting Shoals is _not_ enough, didn't we all know that already :-)
* I'm not sure whether I missed Phantasmagorian... I did not meet any DRS, but then again there might be a sideboard spot for them against those decks, depending on the meta... argue me!
* I feel like Whirlpool Rider is just better than Ballustrade Spy (if you didn't go go all out with Phantasmagorians just some turns before): it doesn't create an all-or-nothing scenario when you can't get all your creatures straight, used up your Cabal Therapies/already lost some bridges, or if someone just STPs your first returned creature... But it sure is nice to have more than 4 options in your graveyard.
I know it's nothing big, but I thought I'd share.
Last edited by Daize; 08-31-2014 at 07:54 PM.
It's a nice slot that fills the gap for the 16th blue card if you're going with four Forces.
Honestly the only reason I see not to play blue is when you expect a metagame that plays Leyline of the Void. And then, honestly, I wouldn't play Manaless at all. But how do you know that people will play leyline instead of Tormod's Crypt, Rest in Peace, or Grafdigger's Cage?
Leyline of the Void is in practically no one's sideboard, ATM. And even if it is, if you get the luck of the draw and get paired against them, take solace in the fact that you will likely win game one anyhow and force them to mulligan into oblivion if need be games two and three to seal the round. Sometimes, they just don't have it - and a tantalizing hand without Leyline can corrupt their decision to mulligan down to four or even three cards.
Either way, the card is generally rare to see in sideboards these days.
That's great, I see your point. In that case, in the right meta I wouldn't see Snapback as a bad addition at all. Also, I updated 2 posts ago with a random unexpected local tourney here ^_^. For shits and giggles.
Hello everyone. I have recently been expanding my collection from strictly MUD, and looking to get into some of legacy's combo decks. Dredge, is probably the cheapest and most resilient so naturally this is where I chose to start. I have borrowed mana versions from a couple friends and played those to reasonable success in the past couple weeks and I have recently decided to take a look at the manaless version, mainly because its cheaper, though it doesn't give me an excuse to buy LED's. Anyway I've seen this deck make top 8 more consistently than the mana version over the past 4 months or so, so my interest is piqued. What I want to ask is what are the advantages/disadvantages of this deck in relation to its brethren, and is it as vulnerable to hate as much as people say (at least relative to the other variants)? Any responses are appreciated and I think I might try to borrow the cards for an upcoming tournament and test it out to see how much I like it.
Read the entire thread, it's a long shot but it's so, so worth it. It'll give you an idea how to play, what the pros and cons are as well.
Pros: less all in on Bridge from Below, more resilient to counters
Cons: less explosive than LED.
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