[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[AlmostGrown]

Is there any answer for teeg? Or is the answer just "grind them out"

[P-E]

If you re not confident with grind plan and your meta is full of teeg snapnack could do the trick

[Daize]

Then you'll see Thalia (which usually goes hand in hand with Teeg) hit the board first.. in that case, I don't know if I'd rather go hard on counters, or just side out the combo pieces. I think I'd go hard on counters.

[Shade909]

Does anyone think the new delve cards will change the types of grave-hate seeing play?

Now that every deck that can run blue is going to be casting Ancestral Recall with threshold, non-blue decks could hurt them by running RIPs (I feel this is less likely), and blue decks that ran RIP could be moving to cage/relic/crypt

May end up making no difference but you know, just a thought

[Michael Keller]

Does anyone think the new delve cards will change the types of grave-hate seeing play?

Now that every deck that can run blue is going to be casting Ancestral Recall with threshold, non-blue decks could hurt them by running RIPs (I feel this is less likely), and blue decks that ran RIP could be moving to cage/relic/crypt

May end up making no difference but you know, just a thought

No one is bringing in graveyard hate to fight Treasure Cruise. You're better off actually playing Treasure Cruise as opposed to fighting it - assuming you're playing blue.

Graveyard hate isn't changing at all. Cage and 'Peace will continue to see play in normal numbers. You might see a small spike in hate on the card, but that's all jitters and bad sideboarding strategy. No need to worry.

[Shade909]

Graveyard hate isn't changing at all. Cage and 'Peace will continue to see play in normal numbers. You might see a small spike in hate on the card, but that's all jitters and bad sideboarding strategy. No need to worry.

I'm not thinking about a spike, I'm thinking about a reduction just in RIP. I only bring it up because a friend has changed his grave-hate from RIP due to testing Treasure Cruise *shrug*
Admittedly, I'm referencing a pretty small sample size here so probably best to ignore me

[Michael Keller]

I'm not thinking about a spike, I'm thinking about a reduction just in RIP. I only bring it up because a friend has changed his grave-hate from RIP due to testing Treasure Cruise *shrug*
Admittedly, I'm referencing a pretty small sample size here so probably best to ignore me

Well, players that run Cruise that also run Rest in Peace probably need to rethink their sideboarding strategy, because that seems incredibly counterproductive. The idea is to fill your graveyard to draw three cards as soon as possible, and even though it's possible anyone running Cruise could sub it/them out for Peace, it just seems bad overall. Players will probably pick up on this if they already haven't, and will likely either stay clear of playing Cruise in that deck or readjust their sideboard so they can justify running it.

Honestly, Tormod's Crypt in the wake of CruiseMania might see a small resurgence in general graveyard hate. It puts a card in your graveyard for free while nuking an opponent's graveyard. Relic is counterproductive in a deck running Cruise, and Cage changes nothing. But again people shouldn't be boarding in hate to fight Cruise, because that's just bad play.

Deathrite Shaman could see a nice increase in play I suspect as a nice side bonus of countering the use of early Cruises, which wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Parcher]

Well, players that run Cruise that also run Rest in Peace probably need to rethink their sideboarding strategy, because that seems incredibly counterproductive. The idea is to fill your graveyard to draw three cards as soon as possible, and even though it's possible anyone running Cruise could sub it/them out for Peace, it just seems bad overall. Players will probably pick up on this if they already haven't, and will likely either stay clear of playing Cruise in that deck or readjust their sideboard so they can justify running it.

Honestly, Tormod's Crypt in the wake of CruiseMania might see a small resurgence in general graveyard hate. It puts a card in your graveyard for free while nuking an opponent's graveyard. Relic is counterproductive in a deck running Cruise, and Cage changes nothing. But again people shouldn't be boarding in hate to fight Cruise, because that's just bad play.

Deathrite Shaman could see a nice increase in play I suspect as a nice side bonus of countering the use of early Cruises, which wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Legacy is slow moving and reactionary. What I believe will happen is first, players will start running more stuff like RiP and Relic. As they are what I call "Stuarts". "Look what I can do! I can hate on both gravyard, AND delve decks!" Which basically means that they are too lazy and stupid to find the best home for these overpowered cards, and would rather feebly attempt some half-measures to contain them. Eventually the format will come around, and people will realize it is better to try and break cards like Treasure Cruise, than it is to try and directly fight them.

[Michael Keller]

Legacy is slow moving and reactionary. What I believe will happen is first, players will start running more stuff like RiP and Relic. As they are what I call "Stuarts". "Look what I can do! I can hate on both gravyard, AND delve decks!" Which basically means that they are too lazy and stupid to find the best home for these overpowered cards, and would rather feebly attempt some half-measures to contain them. Eventually the format will come around, and people will realize it is better to try and break cards like Treasure Cruise, than it is to try and directly fight them.

Deathrite Shaman is the best hate to fight the use of the card because of its multifaceted applicability to game one-three utility. I still give folks who play Legacy the benefit of the doubt, because I believe there are more skilled, intelligent players who won't make ridiculous deck-building decisions like that. At least in the venues I play in. The card is brand new and the knee-jerk reaction is to quash its widespread use or join the ranks. Seeing it as a four-of in a championship deck certainly doesn't help.

As far as hate goes, I expect no change.

[ahg113]

Legacy is slow moving and reactionary. What I believe will happen is first, players will start running more stuff like RiP and Relic. As they are what I call "Stuarts". "Look what I can do! I can hate on both gravyard, AND delve decks!" Which basically means that they are too lazy and stupid to find the best home for these overpowered cards, and would rather feebly attempt some half-measures to contain them. Eventually the format will come around, and people will realize it is better to try and break cards like Treasure Cruise, than it is to try and directly fight them.

So REB/Pyro are bad ideas to fight Cruise with?

About manaless to keep it on track- I'm in the Griz over Whirlpool rider camp. I go back and forth, but Griz is just such a beater and generally better card. Griz also lacks that miniscule anti-synergy with Phanta that Rider does. Not sure if I notice the lack of the extra blue cards. Seldom do I get a hand that has a pitch-counter and Griz so...

[Stomping Grounds G&H]

Another question about the deck that got 3rd at SCG NJ; what is Ashen Rider usually sideboarded in for?

[davelin]

Another question about the deck that got 3rd at SCG NJ; what is Ashen Rider usually sideboarded in for?

Show and tell?

[Darklingske]

Another question about the deck that got 3rd at SCG NJ; what is Ashen Rider usually sideboarded in for?

Yes, show & Tell and Lands too if they play Glacial Chasm.

[funnywille]

So, I was considering building a budget deck for MTGO, so I was wondering how much worse the non-blue decks without Unmask are. I've flipped through the last 15 pages or so and gone through this year's Dredge decks from Opens, and I don't see much of those. Would it be viable to do decently in dailies?

[Daize]

I've played at a tourney with a very sub par manaless dredge deck. It always depends on metagame, and they weren't playing a lot of hate / couldn't find it: ended 6th. Didn't have phantasmagorians (had gigapede but phantasmagorian is soporte much better), had 1 nether shadow and no chancellor of the annexes.
You can easily play with both spy and whirlpool rider as well as disrupting shoal main. No idea about your Meta though.

[funnywille]

I was talking about the MTGO meta actually. Ironically, I have the expensive cards all in real life. I'm just not super invested in MTGO at the moment, and I really don't want to blow a few hundred on an MTGO deck yet.

I'll probably have to proxy this up IRL and goldfish quite a few times to at least understand the basics. On a side note, I recall someone here had a bunch of videos on Youtube with Dredge...but it's too hard to find in this massive thread, and there isn't actually a primer. Does anyone remember who the person was?


I was looking at something like:

Creatures [44]
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Shambling Shell
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith


Sorceries [12]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Sidedeck [15]
1 Forest
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
3Sickening Shoal
3 Contagion

[Mr. Froggy]

Its still a really powerful deck, but Manaless is popular on MTGO since its so cheap to build, so the hate is there.

[Mindlash]

I was talking about the MTGO meta actually. Ironically, I have the expensive cards all in real life. I'm just not super invested in MTGO at the moment, and I really don't want to blow a few hundred on an MTGO deck yet.

I'll probably have to proxy this up IRL and goldfish quite a few times to at least understand the basics. On a side note, I recall someone here had a bunch of videos on Youtube with Dredge...but it's too hard to find in this massive thread, and there isn't actually a primer. Does anyone remember who the person was?


I was looking at something like:

Creatures [44]
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Shambling Shell
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith


Sorceries [12]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Sidedeck [15]
1 Forest
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
3Sickening Shoal
3 Contagion

The Maindeck is the same I am running when playing manaless dredge. Only difference is that I am playing 3 spy and 4 shell.

I am not sold on the sideboard though. Is it common to play an anti-hate package while on the spy plan or are you boarding out all spies? I have seen the green anti-hate only with Griselbrand in the main, because he works with lands.

I play the same split between Contagion and Sickening Shoal. I also use 4 Mindbreak Trap against combo right now.

Last 5 cards are not set right now. Probably 1 Ashen Rider against SnT or prison effects and 1 Serra Avatar against Painter and SnT.

Greetings Mindlash

[funnywille]

The Maindeck is the same I am running when playing manaless dredge. Only difference is that I am playing 3 spy and 4 shell.

I am not sold on the sideboard though. Is it common to play an anti-hate package while on the spy plan or are you boarding out all spies? I have seen the green anti-hate only with Griselbrand in the main, because he works with lands.

I play the same split between Contagion and Sickening Shoal. I also use 4 Mindbreak Trap against combo right now.

Last 5 cards are not set right now. Probably 1 Ashen Rider against SnT or prison effects and 1 Serra Avatar against Painter and SnT.

Greetings Mindlash

Yeah, I'm starting to lean towards a fourth Shambling Shell myself. I'm getting frustrated with how often I dredge 5/6 and mill 0 dredgers.

Err, well, my sideboard plan is actually budgeted. I'm unwilling to put $65 towards a set of Mindbreak traps, so I'm willing to toss the storm matchup and attempt some kind of playable sideboard. I'd love to hear any better ideas.

I'm actually now leaning toward the following board now. I've very rarely boarded in all of the removal...though it might be more because I'm bad at sideboarding. I haven't jammed enough games yet to figure out which cards are essential. I'm trying to evaluate Chancellor at the moment. I very rarely board them out right now, but I think it isn't good enough against non-T1 discard or non-combo decks. I've been leaving them in against UR Delver too, but I think it's possible that they aren't fast enough for me to leave them in...
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Serra Avatar
2 Contagion
2 Sickening Shoal

[Domel]

Hi,

Have you ever considered Dinrova Horror as a DR target in blue version instead of Asher Rider? Last weekend i've decided to give "blue" manaless a try and went 3-1 (loosing to Merfolks in last round). I really like te build but since the deck can be quite short on blue cards I've searched for a creature that might be a substitution for Ashen Rider (for games you want to bring them in from your SB) that might also serve as blue card.

What's your oppinion on this card?