From now on I'm interested again (cause I love Unmask):
Which cards would you cut for them?
Removal? (Conatgion/Shoal are especially good against Goblins/Maverick)
Arbors? (Then you are not really able to bring in antihate against Leyline/RiP, Unmask does nothing against them I think cause you're always on the draw)
A shave-tech? (decreases your consistency)
Or should Unmask just be a Sideboard-card?
Unmask is my opinion is a sideboard card. It could be meta dependent, but I feel it works better out of the board.Originally Posted by DarkJester
If Unmask is against fast combo decks then Contagion/Shoal seems a natural cut to board them in. You could look at the 4 creature removal slots main as flex with some amount of Unmask, if your meta is heavy on combo and light on creatures.
Something to consider - Unmask can also serve as a backup discard outlet against decks that can otherwise mess DDD up with turn 1 duress/thoughtseize type plays (as long as they put you on the play.) Hypothetically, if you're playing against storm, it might be better to Unmask yourself to guarantee a dredger in the yard, rather than risk getting duressed.
I'd say the main competition as an anti-combo sideboard card is Chancellor of the Annex. Annex (if you get it) can protect from turn 1 duress, and also serves as a solid reanimation target.
Just top4'ed annual Moscow legacy open (90 players) with Manaless. Here's my list:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
4 Nether Shadow
3 Griselbrand
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Angel of Despair
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
SB: 4 Reverent Silence
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Contagion
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
It was quite easy until I met Helm control in semifinals: turn 2 Rest in Peace game one and fast Cage + Rest + Countertop game two :(
Some words about non-traditional card choices:
1. I'm sure Angel is strictly better than Flayer. There is no way you can lose after chaining Griselbrand into Angels and Therapies. But unlike Flayer, Angel isn't just a way to win after reanimating Griselbrand. Here are three examples from today's tourney where I won just because of running Angels over Flayers:
a) My opponent played Goblin Charbelcher and passed. He would for sure be able to activate it next turn so I had to do something. I only had two Ichorids, two Angels, Street Wraith, Bridge from Below and Stinkweed in my graveyard in addition to Dread Return, Dryad Arbor and some other cards in my hand. I pitched one Angel and Wraith to Ichorids (that's how important being black can be), milled Phantasmagorian (could also be another Dread Return or Therapy+Bridge), discarded Return, played Arbor and reanimated the 2nd Angel to destroy belcher.
b) Early Show and Tell into his Emrakul and my Angel, nuff said.
c) In game3 of quaterfinals Enchantress player had Sterling Grove, Solitary Confinement and Moat on the battlefield. With some help of Dread Returns and Cabal Therapies targeting myself, a lonely Angel cleaned the path for zombie hordes.
I wouldn't play Manaless without an Angel. Second copy is meta-dependant and only makes sense if you expect a lot of SnT decks though. It can be replaced with the 4th Griselbrand or something else.
2. Shoals over Contagions because everyone and their mother play Scavenging Oozes here.
3. Nature's Claims and additional lands are fine, I just wanted to test Mindbreak Traps and didn't find any other slots for them. Btw Trap is how I won game two against Belcher.
4. Surgicals are here for Brainstorm decks. Manaless doesn't have a lot of ways to convert your skill into additional win percentage and Extraction is definitely one of them. Also it's obviously good in dredge mirrors.
1) I like the combination of 1 Angel of Despair and 1 Flayer of the Hatebound. I think it's the best configuration to have both cards when needed. They are very similar to each other, but sometimes Angel is better and sometimes Flayer is.
2) As Hollywood says: Contagion helps as nearly as much agaist Ooze as Shoal does.
3) Do you like Trap? Non-Belcher Combo doesn't combo off without disruption afaik.
4) Additional win % against Brainstorm-decks? Oo Seriously? Aren't Brainstorm-decks [with exception of RiP/Field-combo] an autowin anyways?
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Just coming from a little tournament, 14 people, 5 rounds of legacy.
M1 vs Maverick
G1 is kinda long, I hit nothing impressive till I shuffle thanks to a Path to Exile, boom, dredge 5 and hit 2 bridges. Zombies coming from dying Ichorids overwhelm him.
G2 I make a huge mistake including not playing my second Dryad Arbor & his Thalia resulting in him getting Jitte & Ooze online, I scoop.
Not much time for G3 left, we play anyway. Again he get's Ooze (equipped with Jitte) online with 3 mana up.
My board: 3 creatures, my graveyard: 2 Ichorids, 1 Bridge, 1 Golgari Thug (last dredger). He left the Thug, I dredge..not hitting Dread Return into Griselbrand (would've needed a dredge 6..). I could manage to get a draw (1 or 2 minutes left) but decided to scoop. I hate drawing M1.
1-2
M2 vs Stiflenought
2 Fast games including 6 or 7 Therapys.
M3 vs Show n Tell
G1 He Thoughtseizes me and durdles around till I get t4 or t5 Griselbrand.
G2 He casts Show n Tell t2, both bringing in Griselband, I get mine back 2 turns later.
M4 vs ANT
I'm faster both games.
M5 vs GUW Tempo
G1 I overwhelm him.
G2 I thought he was playing Snapcaster and would board in some extractions, well he had 3 cage's. Luckily he doesn't find any and I therapy his counter away and get a Griselbrand online.
4-1 which was enough for the first place.
After round 4 the Maverick player had 10 points, me and the GUW-Tempo player each had 9 and three people had 7, because the tempo player and I both allready played vs Maverick he got downpaired to one with 7 points who decided to play, so he couldn't draw for the first place.
Regards, Holly
Ps: 14 People, 1 TES, 2 ANT, 1 High Tide, 1 Enchantress, 1 Manaless Dredge, 2 Show n Tell..woops, should've brought my LED's ;P
Tried to test Noxious Revival but never had the chance, boarded it in for the bant-tempo matchup since I put him on extractions but he had none and I hadn't drawn it anyway. Otherwise pretty classic slow dredging into the win.
Still struggling what how to board when I need my Artifact hate because I hate putting out Phantasmagorian...
Last edited by Holly; 11-25-2012 at 03:28 PM.
There does seem to be a good case for Angel over Flayer - Angel being black helps a lot. To consider whether it's strictly better, I've been trying to think if there are any possible scenarios where Flayer > Angel.
I'm guessing that if you either (i) have a Griselbrand in play or (ii) can DR twice, then you're probably in a good position to win with Angel or Flayer. Flayer might get you the kill right away, but between therapies and removing important permanents the opponent has, most of the time Angel will get you a win as well. I think for comparing the two then, the scenario to focus on is where you are able to DR just one Angel or Flayer.
Flayer and Angel both have a powerful effect when coming into play - 4 damage to a creature or player, or take out a permanent. By itself, I think the Angel's ability has the edge here. However, if Flayer is still in play on your upkeep, turning each Nether Shadow/Ichorid into a burn spell can be a quite powerful effect. Angel doesn't synergize with other stuff in your deck like Flayer does, but it is a 5/5 flyer if it stays in play.
The opponent gives some examples of when Angel > Flayer if you're just reanimating one. Flayer might be better if the opponent has multiple copies of an annoying permanent that doesn't stop you targeting them. For example, if the opponent has multiple Elephant Grass, Flayer might be > Angel (although, if you get a few more turns you will probably find a way to sac and re-DR Angel.)
Angel of Despair has its uses, but I still think it's unnecessary in most circumstances. If you're casting Dread Return, you should be winning anyhow. I understand its defensive utility, but realistically Flayer of the Hatebound gets around most of the common problematic cards that give the deck fits anyhow (Moat, Elephant Grass, Propaganda, etc.). There's really nothing else this deck needs to worry about permanent-wise that would necessitate playing anymore than one, and even then I think that's a stretch.
When you cast Dread Return, you win. That or you create a virtual winning situation for you the following turn. Damage is paramount in this deck, and Flayer provides you an alternative source of "direct damage" that wins you games by itself. Angel of Despair can't do that, which is why I think Flayer wins out here.
Angel of Despair in my experience has really only been good against Show and Tell, and we already have Griselbrand to drop into play for that. Angel of Despair just doesn't do anything for me, but if people want to play it by all means.
I tend to agree - Flayer is my fave fuckbuddy for Grisel.
Angels' not a bad choice though.
There's also Kederekt Leviathan for removal, or to potentially fill our hand again should we need it.
Tech like Glacial Chasm makes me.
It's not common though, so I'm not gonna be plopping Angel in the main unless I see it a lot more.
Terastodon could also be considered here, although it's terrible against SnT.
In competitive magic winning is what is paramount in any deck.
No offence, but it really sounds like "we already have Troll to dredge, why to run other dredgers?". Increasing probability of getting cards you need, that's why. With Angel you increase not just the number of good fatties for Show and Tell but also your number of possible pitches for Ichorid and removal. Also while you probably need two Flayers to win after Extirpating Golgari Grave-Troll, with Angel you can easily spend this slot on the 4th Griselbrand or something else.
1. There are situations where you just cast Dread Return and win no matter what. Obvioulsy such situations shouldn't be taken into account when discussing Dread Return targets.
2. There are situations where Angel wins the game but Flayer doesn't. In my previous post I've provided three examples of such gamestates from a single tournament.
Basing on these two statements, Flayer only should be played over Angel if there are games where Flayer wins and Angel doesn't, and they are more popular than those described in the 2nd statement. Can you name such situations please?
Please don't get me wrong, I argue for Angel not because of having a japanese foil copy or something like that. I just see absolutely no reason to run Flayer over it other than playing slow enough to get into extra turns with this deck.
p.s. Just in case somebody misunderstands how post-Griselbrand Angel works. You Dread Return Angel, sacrifice it into Cabal Therapy, then Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, pass.
I disagree. Contagion is a very good card but against Ooze Shoal is obviously a hundred times better.
Trap is awesome against Belcher, good against High Tide, mediocre against other combo. So it's probably not worth it if you don't expect meeting Belchers.
Preboard yes, postboard sometimes not so easy. Some examples of how to use Surgical against them:
1. Enlightened Tutor into Cage or Rest in Peace? Target tutor, shuffle hate away.
2. Surgical into something important? Respond with your own Surgical and fail to find other copies of that card.
3. Respond to Snapcaster's ability.
4. Brainstorm in resp to your Therapy? He probably has something important on top of his library now, shuffle it away.
5. Top's second ability during your turn? Shuffle that Terminus away. And it becomes even better if they already have one Terminus in their graveyard - then respond to miracle trigger instead.
6. Target something like Spell Pierce to find out if it's save to cast Dread Return.
7. "Discard" additional cards you saw via Cabal Therapy or their Delver.
8. Leave them without Top, fetchland or wincon if you feel that's correct (usually it isn't).
I understand that, thanks. I was giving our friend here a pat on the back so he could have some more confidence playing with the deck, which goes a long way.
I've tested Angel of Despair on and off for the last three years. I can tell you with absolute certainty at this particular point in time that Flayer of the Hatebound in and of itself is enough with Griselbrand to win games. You don't have to worry about opposing permanents and exiling black cards to Ichorid. Almost (or in some instances > than) half the deck is loaded with black creatures, so that's never an issue.No offence, but it really sounds like "we already have Troll to dredge, why to run other dredgers?". Increasing probability of getting cards you need, that's why. With Angel you increase not just the number of good fatties for Show and Tell but also your number of possible pitches for Ichorid and removal. Also while you probably need two Flayers to win after Extirpating Golgari Grave-Troll, with Angel you can easily spend this slot on the 4th Griselbrand or something else.
Show and Tell is not worth dedicating a random slot main deck over when you already have Griselbrands and Trolls and whatever else becomes highly relevant when it enters the battlefield. The only card that matters with Show and Tell is Omniscience, and to be honest, I don't care about it because I haven't played against it - ever.
Yes, they should. That's what the slot is primarily used for, so discussing the optimal targets that win the game immediately is incredibly relevant to a discussion.1. There are situations where you just cast Dread Return and win no matter what. Obvioulsy such situations shouldn't be taken into account when discussing Dread Return targets.
If that works for you, fine. However, I will not run Angel of Despair for the aforementioned reasons because I feel it's a wasted slot main deck. There are few - if any - permanents that necessitate you to tweak your entire sixty around that a Flayer can't already handle by itself.2. There are situations where Angel wins the game but Flayer doesn't. In my previous post I've provided three examples of such gamestates from a single tournament.
Flayer of the Hatebound is functionally different than Angel of Despair. You're predicating its use for corner-case utility, where I'm necessitating Flayer's use as a card that immediately wins the game. Angel of Despair in most instances is a vanilla 5/5 flyer that does nothing else relevant in most circumstances. Flayer of the Hatebound's alternative source of damage is a key part of winning games with this deck (defensively, too), but you're comparing cards that have completely separate purposes. I won't get into the reason why that line of thinking is inherently flawed, and I will stand by two Flayer of the Hatebound as being the optimal main deck choice to win games faster than any other card.Basing on these two statements, Flayer only should be played over Angel if there are games where Flayer wins and Angel doesn't, and they are more popular than those described in the 2nd statement. Can you name such situations please?
If you want a random example, I'll give you one to satiate you: I Top 8'ed an Invitational Qualifier recently. I was staring down an Ooze against Maverick. I wound up shooting down the Ooze with Flayer when I Dread Returned it onto the battlefield. Angel of Despair would have done the same thing, except the next turn I brought back a few creatures which severely damaged him and I followed it up with a second Dread Return into a Troll to secure the win.
Angel of Despair would have knocked off the Ooze in the same circumstance. Except here you're stuck with a 5/5 creature that eats it to all sorts of removal and Maze of Ith. Flayer deals damage under this pretense, which is why even here I would play that over Angel.
Again, the only circumstances I find Angel even remotely playable is against OmniShow. I don't see it often enough to care, and I don't care about it anyhow because I'll tear their hand apart with Therapies. Aside from that, if you're advocating Angels' utility, I think it's you that needs to explain and prove why you feel it's optimal. I've already tested it thoroughly and it's not good enough.
Not main, anyhow.
Manaless dredge is a "Draw, go" deck on its first turn. If you don't deal damage fast enough to win game one and relegate yourself to slowing your fundamental turn down by including a utility card as opposed to a savage damage facilitator, by all means have at it. Both are fundamentally different in what they do - one wins games faster and more often and with more consistency.Please don't get me wrong, I argue for Angel not because of having a japanese foil copy or something like that. I just see absolutely no reason to run Flayer over it other than playing slow enough to get into extra turns with this deck.
p.s. Just in case somebody misunderstands how post-Griselbrand Angel works. You Dread Return Angel, sacrifice it into Cabal Therapy, then Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, pass.
Or, you know, you could just save yourself the cute trick there by Dread Returning into Griselbrand-->Flayer-->Troll and win. I'm not wasting my time destroying permanents when I can win the game, simple.
It isn't, because you're exchanging flayer for Angel. Unless you run both, it'd be like trading troll for thug, you may choose which is better for you.
Flayer has been the main win con in most matchups, but these arguments supporting Angel are very good.
Lands and enchantress are not frequent, but Angel would deal with them. Since Flayer is too strong, we can use Angel in sideboard.
I'm not sold on Extraction, because we usually don't need to hate our opponents to win. Noxious revival can work both ways, messing with tutor/terminus/grindstone and recovering moebas/claim/arbor.
And also: since when do any of you care about Enchantress/enchantments in general? You've got a four-of sweeper in the sideboard that blows them out, in addition to the other two to four Claims to back that up.
Enchantress is a laughable match up, fellas. Seriously. Most Enchantress players get a good snicker in when they drop Elephant Grass against you.
Then they find out about a card card "Flayer of the Hatebound," and shit gets real.
What's the difference between winning right now and winning next turn? It's usually fine to add some bad cards in order to pay for a deck's speed increase, but here such increase is kinda imaginary because nobody wins off one topdeck after being left without hand and best permanents anyway.
I don't believe you never have any problems feeding more than two Ichorids or, to a lesser degree, finding a high cmc black card for Shoal.You don't have to worry about opposing permanents and exiling black cards to Ichorid. Almost (or in some instances > than) half the deck is loaded with black creatures, so that's never an issue.
Well, in my examples Angel won several games Flayer would never win and in yours I see almost no difference between them. Had they had Swords, Angel would even be a bit better, lol.If you want a random example, I'll give you one to satiate you: I Top 8'ed an Invitational Qualifier recently. I was staring down an Ooze against Maverick. I wound up shooting down the Ooze with Flayer when I Dread Returned it onto the battlefield. Angel of Despair would have done the same thing, except the next turn I brought back a few creatures which severely damaged him and I followed it up with a second Dread Return into a Troll to secure the win.
Preboard it seems to be even without an Angel and almost unlosable with it because you don't really care about anything but Confinement. However, postbord it's more complicated. Don't forget they have Rest in Peace or Wheel of Sun in addition to Tutors and Replenish. Even with Reverent Silences, it's often a long war of attrition.Enchantress is a laughable match up, fellas. Seriously.
It is, because for some reason Hollywood compared Angel to Griselbrand instead of Flayer.
I prefer Extraction, because:I'm not sold on Extraction, because we usually don't need to hate our opponents to win. Noxious revival can work both ways, messing with tutor/terminus/grindstone and recovering moebas/claim/arbor.
1. Revival is bad against Terminus because they just pay one mana to rearrange cards with Top's ability and counter it.
2. Dredge is more popular than Painter in my (and probably every) meta.
3. I would really want to recover countered/discarded anti-hate against Rest in Peace and Leyline but unfortunately it just doesn't work.
Retrieving moebas is cute but that's not exactly what I want my sideboard to do.
Last edited by ykpon; 11-27-2012 at 06:13 PM.
This discussion (Angel v Flayer) reminds me of the debates over additional DR targets in mana Dredge. There, adding single targets makes you slightly less likely to get to the point where you can DR, but allows you to do more powerful stuff when you do. Here, it's whether the flexibility of Angel beats the extra speed and different flexibility Flayer gets you.
I think the key questions for evaluating Angel are:
1. In the games where you do get Griselbrand into play, how often are you going to win only if you have Flayer, compared to win only if you have Angel, compared to win either way?
2. In the games where you don't get Griselbrand into play, how often are you going to win only if you have Flayer, compared to win only if you have Angel, compared to win either way?
3. How often does the scenario in 1. come up versus the scenario in 2.?
I can think of some scenarios where you want Flayer over Angel in Griselbrand turns:
- Storm/Belcher opponent has enough goblin tokens in play to kill you unless you win on your turn - too many to kill/block even with Griselbrand and even if you can kill several with Angels
for the next set of examples, assume you can't DR enough Angels to kill land to stop the opponent:
- High Tide opponent is going to topdeck Time Spiral and kill you on their next turn unless you win on yours
- You are on low life and Storm opponent is going to topdeck cards which let them Tendrils you out
- You are on low life and opponent is going to topdeck a burn spell to kill you
And in 2.:
- opponent has multiple creatures and Flayer/Ichorid/Shadow lets you (i) kill multiple relevant creatures where Angel would only get one or (ii) damage the opponent where otherwise they have too many blockers
I think both Angel and Flayer are good choices. Flayer end games and Angel can save you from some games. Thats no reason to don't use one of each. Anyway if griselbrand will most of the time the first reanimated monster and you probably flip your library anyway. Show and Tell Omniscence is a bad match against manaless with only grisel and Flayer. Cause you won't win the game during your turn 2. Rarelly u will but turn 2 show and Tell Omniscience is good game, legendary rule wont save you against free dazes,FoW etc.
Noxious and Surgical are both good cards that work for different situations. Surgical can save u against some situations but the most important its the information that it can give to you. You can dredge more safe if u now what your opponents have in the hands and gives information to a better cabal therapy. But the most important I think is that it will give the information about the hates your oponnent have in their deck, so u can have a better game 3 if you can't win the second one. Other side is Noxious that can save your own cards and can manipulate the top deck of your oponnents. They work different but anyway, both won't save you if you don't start with them so its a choice that will only matters the way you play and/or the way you like to play. Until now that are not an ultimate manaless dredge list to follow, cause until now none manaless won first place a big tournament, only the one from SCG tournament but that was luck against no Leylines sidedeck. Just some ideas that players share but its not an deck that anyone can play, game one is fine most of the time but the real game only starts after sideboard cause the hates are turning better and better.
I have to disagree on a few points here ykpon.
So what are we talking about?
For starters, Flayer combined with Therapy gives 9 points of damage to a players' face.
It turns Ichorids into Lightning Bolts & Nether Traitors into Gutshots every turn.
Angel destroys a targetted perm, works with Contagion & Shoal, can be eaten by Ichorids and flys.
To me, both have very different roles - one is a catch-all that can deal with a potential problem for us, whereas the other accelerates us winning and/or gives us an alternative path to winning.
Flayer can win a game without us even attacking, whereas Angels' main purpose is killing something.
Considering a major part of this deck is Bridge, not having to attack to win is an advantage for Flayer here.
IMO, One of these creatures is VERY good in specific matchups (Angel), whereas the other is generally better is a LOT of matchups (Flayer).
But this comes with a catch;
In the MU's that Angel is really good for (Show), we don't want to DR it necessarily, we want it in hand - and that makes it so much less consistent.
Wrong.
The obvious difference is Burn, or any deck that runs direct-to-your-face damage/leech in topdeck form.
A single Angel will not get you over the line against even a lowly transformed Delver on the next turn, whereas a Flayer will emit burn, in Ichorid/Nether-form.
Are you talking about Swords to Plowshares?
If we're playing against Swords of Plowshares, we wouldn't be playing Flayer until we've already played a Grisel and stripped their hand c/o Therapy.
I've not tried playing Extraction in this deck yet. I'll give it a shot if you rate it so much, see how I go.
But could you answer me something?
Why would you play extraction, when most of the time we're playing most of our therapies on the turn we DR Grisel and just win - why extract?
And since we have no counter, we can't stop a combo happening (unless we're talking some storm deck and we get super lucky taking their fuel out of hand), so what good is extraction anyway?
Consider;
The main plus of Angel of Despair is the Show and Tell matchup, but with only two in the deck, how likely is it you would actually have one in hand?
With Noxious Revival in the deck, it's easier to get Angel into your hand.
But seriously, even then;
I still don't see how running only 2, or even 3 Angel's is gonna help us be anything but reactionary to OmniShow, which means we lose, as the likelihood of us having the Angel in hand for Show is tenuous at best, compounded by the fact we don't wanna mulligan.
Belcher never has enough tokens to race Griselbrand, and Storm never has enough mana to cast Time Spiral/Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames after losing three lands and the whole hand.
Against Burn you just reanimate Griselbrand and pass.
In mentioned situation Hollywood had to reanimate Flayer to kill Ooze.Are you talking about Swords to Plowshares?
If we're playing against Swords of Plowshares, we wouldn't be playing Flayer until we've already played a Grisel and stripped their hand c/o Therapy.
You don't automatically lose because of not having the Angel, it just increases your chances so even one is useful. If you really want to beat Show and Tell, run four in your 75 like Goblins sometimes do. In a normal meta I'd probably just run 4 Griselbrands and 1 Angel to make a deck as consistent as possible.I still don't see how running only 2, or even 3 Angel's is gonna help us be anything but reactionary to OmniShow, which means we lose, as the likelihood of us having the Angel in hand for Show is tenuous at best, compounded by the fact we don't wanna mulligan.
Maybe we need to focus on the worst matchups. Flayer is better against storm combo and maverick.
Omniscience is frequent, but isn't unwinnable without Angel. Griselbrand and therapies balance this matchup.
I'm sticking to Flayer. I know what it can do and what it's capable of and I'm not switching.
If you want to run Angel, by all means go for it.
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