Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.
Can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I actually see Dryad Arbor in this decks future at some point so that nature's claim can be run for this reason (in the sideboard). I understand why people like chancellor of the forge but dryad arbor has much more utility and creates a token with bridge from below.
Ashen ghoul was in early vintage Friggorid lists but ended up being left out of manaless and I don't think it will work here either. Unlike nether shadow you need one land per ghoul, that gets a bit tricky with the rate you go through your deck.
Being vulnerable to MM is ok. The deck is already open (in some ways) to MM, as it still has Therapy. The issue is really 'how vulnerable' you are to MM.
It does seem odd to play Probe when one major reason to play the deck at all is to avoid MM. Upon closer examination, I think you'll find probe's vulnerability less of a problem. MM, at its best, stops Dredge variants from getting the ball rolling (hitting discard outlets can be gaming winning). Hitting Probe isn't such a big deal though because you're only using probe when you've already got the ball rolling. MM's effect is mitigated by the very nature of the deck.
The deck is designed to be very good at DDD and chaining dredgers, substantially better than other Dredge variants. It can accept untimely counterspells that the other variants simply can't.
You'll DDD, then next turn you'll Probe (going to 7). If they MM, you still have a very good chance of chain dredging (Phantasmagorian contributes -- making it virtually 20 dredge cards in the deck). The odds of you getting "time-walked" because you are at 7-cards and can't DDD are unlikely given the very high odds of flipping over another Dredge/Phant during your next draw step.
Yes, they do get to interact with you. That interaction isn't backbreaking though. Probe speeds the deck up, and the deck sorely needs that when it can get it. If MM would be backbreaking, then don't cast the spell, you can always use it later.
One other option might be to run Bauble instead of probe (if you aren't already running 8 Baubles). But, baubles are not nearly as good as Probe.
peace,
4eak
Last edited by 4eak; 07-25-2011 at 03:31 PM.
I wanted to build a shorthand abbreviation excluding anything that could possibly be cut within reason, but you're right, two Shadows and two Phantasmagorian do seem like a necessary minimum for any iteration of the deck. Therefore, I propose this as the shorthand 'core', so from now on, everyone can just type 'Core [44]' and save some time ('core forty-four' also has a nice ring to it):
Core [44]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
2 Nether Shadow
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
What I meant was that Plan A's overarching goal should be Dread Returning a lethal Flame-kin Zealot as soon as possible in a mindful fashion, with Plan B being falling back on grinding out games with Bridge from Below and Ichorid recursion, since B can act as a function of A; an inverse mentality of fifteen land Dredge, if you will. This is because of the need to outspeed certain decks in Legacy, whether it be Show and Tell, Reanimator, Burn, or the mirror. The deck can slowroll dredge better than any Dredge build before it, so I don't think the deck needs to be ultra-resilient by replacing the four DR targets because it already has more than enough resilience. There is space in Manaless, whereas there really wasn't any room for DR targets in a built-for-consistency fifteen land build.
I found in goldfishing the deck a bit last night that the token Chancellor of the Forge provides wasn't as useful in casting an early Dread Return as I had once thought because by the time you can sacrifice three creatures and animate a Sphinx, you'll usually have, in addition, three or more non-Chancellor creatures to sacrifice anyway; the times when I was able to cast DR before usual because of the token(s), I couldn't reanimate a Sphinx, or if I could, I couldn't maximize the usefulness of one. It's also harder to protect Dread Return with Cabal Therapy when you're banking on Chancellor to enable you to cast one early (early in my book is turns 2-3, the norm being turns 3-5). The biggest benefit the token provided was opening up the possibility of a turn two Cabal Therapy. I think I'm gonna put Chancellor in my back pocket, because using up the eight free slots highlighted in 4eak's post on page one on four Chancellors and four Baubles is certainly an interesting arrangement.
Ashen Ghoul seems dreadfully slow- not only will it usually be a minimum of one turn before you can return it to play, it means you'll likely have had to dredge two for one of your draws, which isn't very awesome.
I disagree; my sentiments were expressed rather nicely in 4eak's response.
Probe is a sorcery.
Last edited by KevinTrudeau; 07-25-2011 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Wanted to further clarify a few things
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
Yup. See my post.Probe is a sorcery.
Although, looking back (yet again), I'm entirely wrong about it. If probe is countered, you still have the Dredger in your GY. You won't get timewalked. Let's see if I can get this right the 3rd time around:
T1: Discard
T2: Dredge; if you flip a Dredger/Phant, then you can Probe. If MM'd, you still have the Dredger in the GY.
T3: Dredge; doesn't matter if you flip Dredger/Phant, you are back to 8 cards in hand. No timewalk.
A case where you get timewalked is more complicated and less likely. This assumes that your resources are pretty limited (Phant'ing two dredgers stops these problems, for example).
T1: Discard
T2: Dredge, you flip Dredger/Phant; You use 2 draw effects and both get countered (perhaps including Stifle for some effects); you are down to 6 cards in hand
T3: Dredge; you don't flip a Dredger/Phant; you have 7 cards in hand, no Dredger/Phant in the GY; you get timewalked.
An unlikely series of events.
peace,
4eak
Phantasmagorian is completely awesome if you see one per game, and (in my opinion) merely okay if you see two in a game (as the looping-through-your-hand thing feels sweet but isn't a whole lot better than just having 1 Phantasmagorian). This, to me, screams 3-of, and 2-of in lists with a lot of draw effects. Once you start piling on a million creatures that each need graveyard manipulation, though, you feel the need for them much more strongly. This is why lists with Nether Shadow and Bloodghast have to have 4. I think if a list has 4 Street Wraith 4 Gitaxian Probe, 0 Baubles, 0 Bloodghast, you should probably have 3 Phantasmagorian 1 Gigapede. Obviously as you start tweaking the deck either way, you adjust how many of each sort of discard outlet you want.
Regarding ANT and TES: Tendrils with Duress is only 2-ish decks in the format, and is pretty okay as far as nightmare matchups go.
I agree that Gut Shot is better.
I don't think we should run a reactive sideboard in the sense of casting Pithing Needle or dropping Leyline of Sanctity into play, I think we should run reactive cards that have broad applications, and basically shift from combo-aggro to aggro-control (or even the mythical aggro-combo-contro), using disruption elements to buy time to lock the game down with Cabal Therapy and an endless supply of zombie blockers/attackers (as opposed to the more normal endless supply of zombie attackers/blockers). The cards that I think most readily go into this sort of plan are Chancellor of the Annex and Mental Misstep, which are both broad answers to early plays.
I think it's definitely a little bit of an overreaction, but as it's good enough to sweep through basically every control deck and basically every aggro deck, there's not really any metagame mechanism for punishing that overreaction - except Leyline of the Void. I've been working on a hybrid list, which plays DDD much more consistently than past builds, but then on turn 2 or 3 starts paying mana for draw spells. It's playing well and seems like it could become the best choice.
If I had to run a list with Bloodghast it would change up the maindeck and sideboard too..
75:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Angel of Despair
4 Bloodghast
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 4 Gut Shot
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
It's got only two Dakmoor Salvage, but I took out x8 Bauble for Bloodghast and Flame-kin to make it in. I also increased the number of Phanta to 4. The sideboard instead only has 3 Leyline because of how bad it is to get multiples, atleast Mental Misstep counters other Mental Misstep. Gut Shot is good at taking how Jailer without removing your relevant black cards. Mindbreak Trap shores up combo city.
Team Shit Sandwich; smelling bad so you don't have to.
It's not so bad, Rausch scooped in Round 3 and he still won...
wouldn't gut shot just eat the misstep you were avoiding by playing this deck?
or should I assume that decks that play jailer won't be playing blue or misstep...? If they were playing blue, misstep would stay in even if FOW goes out.. probably because cabal therapy is always a threat..
I'm testing this list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gigapede
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
3 Dryad Arbor
sb:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
4 Reverent Silence
4 Nature's Claim
The deck already as great games against everything, combo included (they usualy win on turn 3, so it gives us our turn 2 to therapy/hypnotist away their hand), it's only weakness is hate in the form of leyline and relic, or really bad luck wich can happen, so i put all my sideboard to deal with Leyline and also helps a lot against Relic, fetches are a must. I sb out 4 probe, 3 Gigapede, 2 Hypnotist, 2 Dread Return, 2 Narcomoeba (might seem odd but makes sense because you usually will draw more cards at the beginning, you also have more Dryad Arbor wich in a way replace them) and 2 Shambling Shell.
Give me your thoughts...
Hi everybody.
This is my first post and I'd like to contribute with an idea 2 fight against Leyline's autoscoop... What about 4 Land Grant +1 Dryad Arbor + 4 Reverent Silence in SB? I'd rather prefer try to beat lelyline instead get a dread return collection on SB ... I know that it's too hard fight against them plus opponent's counters (if they play) but opp. would be forced mull to get leyline and wouldn't have nothing to stop our antigrav. hate. Reverent Silence could clean up the battlefield of several leylines copies also. About Nicholas's main deck I wouldn't change nothing.
PD. Sorry 4 my English, I'm not an English speaker.
Greetings.
I don't think it's worth it to fight Leyline of the Void in your sideboard. If you do, the fetches are almost certainly better. Land Grant can be Spell Snare'd (we're on the draw, remember?), which is being played a lot right now since it lets you curve out with Mental Misstep, while Stifle is being played a lot less. Additionally the fetchlands give you an extra landfall trigger for Bloodghast.
Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitusYou're right. Didn't see in this way, and we've got the chance on T1 fetches bayou and play Cabal Therapy to protect Reverent Silence. Testing right now...while Stifle is being played a lot less. Additionally the fetchlands give you an extra landfall trigger for Bloodghast.
Land Grant can be Spell Snared, but decks playing Leyline of the Void usually don't play Spell Snare :P.
But no point trying to hate LotV.
Resistance is futile!
Jailer decks usually only have Jailer as their threat, or don't have Mental Misstep. The worst case scenario is that they counter Gut Shot and my own Mental Misstep and I lose to them that game or the match. Gut Shot cost 1 card in my hand a 2 life. Contagion cost 2 cards and 1 life and is invunerable to Mental Misstep. I have Mental Misstep to also fight Mental Misstep so unless they got multiple Misstep, Force of Will, or some trash like that I should be in good shape.
I tested yesterday and ran into two or three decks packing Leyline of the Void so I got match losses to all of them. Seems like opponents never get unlucky to not find leyline in their mulls.
Team Shit Sandwich; smelling bad so you don't have to.
IMO I wouldn't run Gut Shot only to stop random Jailers (the fact is that isn't a common hate graveyard card on actually SB lists, at least in my country), in addition to one casted copy is not enough to beat Gaddocks or Meddling Mage (2/2 both) and is weak against Mental Misstep. As a manaless dredge player, I'd prefer make a SB to fight Leylines, Tormod's, Relic, Needle/Revoke --> Phantasmagorian, instead make a removal creatures SB, cause in the worst scenario case, you could be beaten by a random Jailer, but otherwise, Gaddock and Meddling couldn't stop the graveyard mecanichs except the last one naming Therapy or Dread (blocking and dying our creatures, zombies would be come in anyway).
About packing Contagion in SB: Very useful against Meddlings/random Jailers and Peacekeeper and invulnerable to MM, only Gaddock Teeg can stop it.
And how exactly do you want to fight Leylines and Relic with your sideboard? Like 11 Forests + 4 Reverent Silence?
Just for those who also want to do things like that. You could also play some Plains plus Abolish, that would hit Leyline as well as Crypt/Relic and stuff in the same fashion. The only downside is that it doesn't dodge Daze (like Reverent) and that you don't get any use out of a Dryad Arbor.
IMO, this deck doesn't need to fight Crypts, Spellbombs and such, because it can easily recover after an activation. Relic is more problematic, but it can be played around with Street Wraith or Baubles (nothing else btw).
Looking at these lists makes me happy. Now, I have a few ideas I would like to throw out there, I have never played this deck, but I do have a substantial amount of experience with Dredge.
1. As I look at the deck, I really want 10 lands and Putrid Imp. This would also enable Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul to be expolited. Maybe its just the Timmy side of me but I really like the idea of Ashen Ghoul in here, maybe even better than Bloodghast since it is not an entirely worthless creature.
2. Playing a few lands also makes Darkblast very relevant which is a spectacular card itself and allows you to cast Therapy, either on urself to get the ball rolling or the opponent. I am not saying you have to do this turn 1 ... but its a good option.
3. Probe gets Misstepped as does Putrid Imp .... but Imp seems just better and provides more Ichorid fodder.
4. I really like the idea of Dryad Arbor. Not necessarily as a 4-of but, certainly brings a lot of new options to the table, in particular with the SB. It also helps w Shadow recursion.
5. Yes, I realize this is "manaless", but when playing 10 lands it enables better discard outlets but still has the capabilities to revert back to manaless should u need 2. Options are always good.
This deck seems like it has an absurd amount of potential, I will be testing it in the coming weeks. This is all speculation, but kind of the direction I am looking to take my build in. Some kind of a hybrid between manaless and LED versions. Honestly, as opposed to a Reanimator type approach, I like the idea of mainly beatdown strategy w a combo finish if necessary.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)