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Thread: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid

  1. #21
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtificiallyEnhanced View Post
    What about if I have chancellors of the forge in my opener? They could've kept a bad hand having mulled into LotV, have no gas and 20/10/7/5 turns later you win! :p

    Yeah, not gonna happen, is it. Still if you've got the time it's better than autoscooping!!!
    I actually see Dryad Arbor in this decks future at some point so that nature's claim can be run for this reason (in the sideboard). I understand why people like chancellor of the forge but dryad arbor has much more utility and creates a token with bridge from below.
    Quote Originally Posted by slaughtercult View Post
    Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.
    Ashen ghoul was in early vintage Friggorid lists but ended up being left out of manaless and I don't think it will work here either. Unlike nether shadow you need one land per ghoul, that gets a bit tricky with the rate you go through your deck.

  3. #23

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    As far as I can tell, Rausch consciously excluded Gitaxian Probe because of Mental Misstep. It makes sense to do the same.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Being vulnerable to MM is ok. The deck is already open (in some ways) to MM, as it still has Therapy. The issue is really 'how vulnerable' you are to MM.

    It does seem odd to play Probe when one major reason to play the deck at all is to avoid MM. Upon closer examination, I think you'll find probe's vulnerability less of a problem. MM, at its best, stops Dredge variants from getting the ball rolling (hitting discard outlets can be gaming winning). Hitting Probe isn't such a big deal though because you're only using probe when you've already got the ball rolling. MM's effect is mitigated by the very nature of the deck.

    The deck is designed to be very good at DDD and chaining dredgers, substantially better than other Dredge variants. It can accept untimely counterspells that the other variants simply can't.

    You'll DDD, then next turn you'll Probe (going to 7). If they MM, you still have a very good chance of chain dredging (Phantasmagorian contributes -- making it virtually 20 dredge cards in the deck). The odds of you getting "time-walked" because you are at 7-cards and can't DDD are unlikely given the very high odds of flipping over another Dredge/Phant during your next draw step.

    Yes, they do get to interact with you. That interaction isn't backbreaking though. Probe speeds the deck up, and the deck sorely needs that when it can get it. If MM would be backbreaking, then don't cast the spell, you can always use it later.

    One other option might be to run Bauble instead of probe (if you aren't already running 8 Baubles). But, baubles are not nearly as good as Probe.






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    Last edited by 4eak; 07-25-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by ajfirecracker View Post
    @Kevin - I like your decklist, but I think you'll probably find that the extra Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian aren't necessary. In any case, it's close enough to mine that I have a really hard time complaining about it. I think 40 cards is actually a little small for the core. I seem to be the only person who thinks you don't need all 4 Phantasmagorian and all 4 Nether Shadow, so you can almost certainly include at least 2 of each in the core, possibly ignoring me and counting all 8. Additionally, I would be unsurprised if Gitaxian Probe was not considered an auto 4-of in the near future. This could actually displace some number of Dread Return as players try to shoehorn in Bloodghast + Dakmor Salvage alongside the rest of the good cards.

    @FinalFortune - I really don't think you even need the grinding package. Grinding out the games is an awesome plan in the relevant matchups (and against some forms of hate), but the faster package is pretty good at grinding out games as well (which I think was Kevin's main point). I think you're probably better off with a combination of very general reactive cards in your sideboard, including Chancellor of the Annex against the Duress decks, and some form anti-combo package.

    Edit: After reading up on the LED/manaless list you were discussing, Fortune, it seems like it has a decent chance of winning on Turn 1-2 and a decent chance of winning on turn 6-10 (due to no LED). I don't think that actually helps at all against anything except Belcher or Spanish Inquisition, as even the fastest of the other storm decks will often take a few turns to set up, allowing us to hit them with Cabal Therapy in that window, which implies we'd rather just be more consistent.
    I wanted to build a shorthand abbreviation excluding anything that could possibly be cut within reason, but you're right, two Shadows and two Phantasmagorian do seem like a necessary minimum for any iteration of the deck. Therefore, I propose this as the shorthand 'core', so from now on, everyone can just type 'Core [44]' and save some time ('core forty-four' also has a nice ring to it):

    Core [44]
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Shambling Shell

    2 Nether Shadow
    2 Phantasmagorian
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I don't really understand your hypothesis regarding this deck being a Dread Return deck instead of an Ichorid/Bridge from Below deck because theoretically the only thing that makes it a Dread Return deck is deciding to replace engine cards with Dread Return targets and accelerating into Dread Return as quickly as possible. If you want to play Dread Return centric deck, nothing is more Dread Return centric than the list I posted above.

    Also, Phantasmagorian and the number of Phantasmagorians isn't debateable, there isn't a single card in this deck that you want to see in your hand or in your graveyard more than Phantasmagorian. It's like a Street Wraith you can Dredge into, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous at increasing the goldfish.

    I'm not certain I'd trade Chancellor of the Forge for Baubles, it's more of a question of Chancellor of the Forge vs the Sphinx/Zealot package because you have to ask yourself whether or not Dread Return targets are win more and how many dead cards you want to have in your hand or graveyard. Chancellor of the Forge is interesting because it gives the deck an alternative Dread Return target and accelerates the deck into Dread Return at the same time.
    What I meant was that Plan A's overarching goal should be Dread Returning a lethal Flame-kin Zealot as soon as possible in a mindful fashion, with Plan B being falling back on grinding out games with Bridge from Below and Ichorid recursion, since B can act as a function of A; an inverse mentality of fifteen land Dredge, if you will. This is because of the need to outspeed certain decks in Legacy, whether it be Show and Tell, Reanimator, Burn, or the mirror. The deck can slowroll dredge better than any Dredge build before it, so I don't think the deck needs to be ultra-resilient by replacing the four DR targets because it already has more than enough resilience. There is space in Manaless, whereas there really wasn't any room for DR targets in a built-for-consistency fifteen land build.

    I found in goldfishing the deck a bit last night that the token Chancellor of the Forge provides wasn't as useful in casting an early Dread Return as I had once thought because by the time you can sacrifice three creatures and animate a Sphinx, you'll usually have, in addition, three or more non-Chancellor creatures to sacrifice anyway; the times when I was able to cast DR before usual because of the token(s), I couldn't reanimate a Sphinx, or if I could, I couldn't maximize the usefulness of one. It's also harder to protect Dread Return with Cabal Therapy when you're banking on Chancellor to enable you to cast one early (early in my book is turns 2-3, the norm being turns 3-5). The biggest benefit the token provided was opening up the possibility of a turn two Cabal Therapy. I think I'm gonna put Chancellor in my back pocket, because using up the eight free slots highlighted in 4eak's post on page one on four Chancellors and four Baubles is certainly an interesting arrangement.

    Quote Originally Posted by slaughtercult View Post
    Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.
    Ashen Ghoul seems dreadfully slow- not only will it usually be a minimum of one turn before you can return it to play, it means you'll likely have had to dredge two for one of your draws, which isn't very awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    As far as I can tell, Rausch consciously excluded Gitaxian Probe because of Mental Misstep. It makes sense to do the same.
    I disagree; my sentiments were expressed rather nicely in 4eak's response.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4eak View Post
    You'll DDD, on their upkeep or end step, you'll Probe (going to 6). If they MM, you still have a very good chance of chain dredging (Phantasmagorian contributes -- making it virtually 20 dredge cards in the deck). The odds of you getting "time-walked" because you are at 6-cards and can't DDD are unlikely given the very high odds of flipping over another Dredge/Phant during your next draw step.
    Probe is a sorcery.
    Last edited by KevinTrudeau; 07-25-2011 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Wanted to further clarify a few things
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  6. #26
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Probe is a sorcery.
    Yup. See my post.

    Although, looking back (yet again), I'm entirely wrong about it. If probe is countered, you still have the Dredger in your GY. You won't get timewalked. Let's see if I can get this right the 3rd time around:

    T1: Discard
    T2: Dredge; if you flip a Dredger/Phant, then you can Probe. If MM'd, you still have the Dredger in the GY.
    T3: Dredge; doesn't matter if you flip Dredger/Phant, you are back to 8 cards in hand. No timewalk.

    A case where you get timewalked is more complicated and less likely. This assumes that your resources are pretty limited (Phant'ing two dredgers stops these problems, for example).

    T1: Discard
    T2: Dredge, you flip Dredger/Phant; You use 2 draw effects and both get countered (perhaps including Stifle for some effects); you are down to 6 cards in hand
    T3: Dredge; you don't flip a Dredger/Phant; you have 7 cards in hand, no Dredger/Phant in the GY; you get timewalked.

    An unlikely series of events.


    peace,
    4eak

  7. #27
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    As far as I can tell, Rausch consciously excluded Gitaxian Probe because of Mental Misstep. It makes sense to do the same.
    True,
    The other reasons for street wraith are that it dodges duress and feeds Ichorid, But I would rather play Probe + wraith any day despite this.

  8. #28

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I don't really understand your hypothesis regarding this deck being a Dread Return deck instead of an Ichorid/Bridge from Below deck because theoretically the only thing that makes it a Dread Return deck is deciding to replace engine cards with Dread Return targets and accelerating into Dread Return as quickly as possible. If you want to play Dread Return centric deck, nothing is more Dread Return centric than the list I posted above.

    Also, Phantasmagorian and the number of Phantasmagorians isn't debateable, there isn't a single card in this deck that you want to see in your hand or in your graveyard more than Phantasmagorian. It's like a Street Wraith you can Dredge into, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous at increasing the goldfish.

    I'm not certain I'd trade Chancellor of the Forge for Baubles, it's more of a question of Chancellor of the Forge vs the Sphinx/Zealot package because you have to ask yourself whether or not Dread Return targets are win more and how many dead cards you want to have in your hand or graveyard. Chancellor of the Forge is interesting because it gives the deck an alternative Dread Return target and accelerates the deck into Dread Return at the same time.

    @AJ

    I don't think a reactive SB has the same utility as a SB that plays thru' hate instead of against it, I was really impressed by how SBing into the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package just let me laugh off Tormod's Crypt in my match up vs. Affinity yesterday.

    I'm not certain the match up vs. Storm is salvageable, Duress/Thought Seize backed by combo is just a beating and boarding 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Mind Break trap doesn't sound very appealing. Also, can somebody explain to me why the hell people are SBing Cantagion? Nobody plays Yixlid Jailor, and Gutshot is better vs. Yixlid Jailor anyway. I don't get it.

    Al of that aside, I'm starting to question whether or not Manaless Dredge is an overreaction to Mental Misstep, because while playing LED Dredge (the Parcher list) either my opponent or I chose to draw game 1 every game and I could just play around Mental Misstep and Daze by discarding my Dredger and sand bagging my Lion's Eye Diamond, Break Through and/or Putrid Imps game 1 and then could board in Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Ancient Grudge like normal. My main problem with Manaless Dredge is that game two is just awful, awful, awful if they are smart enough to make you play, pass and start the game with an 8 card hand because there's no opportunity cost they'll miss their chance to counter your spells with Daze or get Cabal Therapied.
    Phantasmagorian is completely awesome if you see one per game, and (in my opinion) merely okay if you see two in a game (as the looping-through-your-hand thing feels sweet but isn't a whole lot better than just having 1 Phantasmagorian). This, to me, screams 3-of, and 2-of in lists with a lot of draw effects. Once you start piling on a million creatures that each need graveyard manipulation, though, you feel the need for them much more strongly. This is why lists with Nether Shadow and Bloodghast have to have 4. I think if a list has 4 Street Wraith 4 Gitaxian Probe, 0 Baubles, 0 Bloodghast, you should probably have 3 Phantasmagorian 1 Gigapede. Obviously as you start tweaking the deck either way, you adjust how many of each sort of discard outlet you want.

    Regarding ANT and TES: Tendrils with Duress is only 2-ish decks in the format, and is pretty okay as far as nightmare matchups go.

    I agree that Gut Shot is better.

    I don't think we should run a reactive sideboard in the sense of casting Pithing Needle or dropping Leyline of Sanctity into play, I think we should run reactive cards that have broad applications, and basically shift from combo-aggro to aggro-control (or even the mythical aggro-combo-contro), using disruption elements to buy time to lock the game down with Cabal Therapy and an endless supply of zombie blockers/attackers (as opposed to the more normal endless supply of zombie attackers/blockers). The cards that I think most readily go into this sort of plan are Chancellor of the Annex and Mental Misstep, which are both broad answers to early plays.

    I think it's definitely a little bit of an overreaction, but as it's good enough to sweep through basically every control deck and basically every aggro deck, there's not really any metagame mechanism for punishing that overreaction - except Leyline of the Void. I've been working on a hybrid list, which plays DDD much more consistently than past builds, but then on turn 2 or 3 starts paying mana for draw spells. It's playing well and seems like it could become the best choice.

  9. #29
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    If I had to run a list with Bloodghast it would change up the maindeck and sideboard too..

    75:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Angel of Despair
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Dakmor Salvage
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
    SB: 4 Mental Misstep
    SB: 4 Gut Shot
    SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

    It's got only two Dakmoor Salvage, but I took out x8 Bauble for Bloodghast and Flame-kin to make it in. I also increased the number of Phanta to 4. The sideboard instead only has 3 Leyline because of how bad it is to get multiples, atleast Mental Misstep counters other Mental Misstep. Gut Shot is good at taking how Jailer without removing your relevant black cards. Mindbreak Trap shores up combo city.
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  10. #30

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by K1w1 View Post
    Hey, i'm actually playing the list from Nicholas and my problem is, i don't know to counter Leyline of the Void, because Leyline of Sanctity doesn't help me against it.
    So, how can i counter this? Or is this already discussed and i'm too stupid to read it?

    K1w1
    It's not so bad, Rausch scooped in Round 3 and he still won...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shax View Post
    SB: 4 Gut Shot
    wouldn't gut shot just eat the misstep you were avoiding by playing this deck?

    or should I assume that decks that play jailer won't be playing blue or misstep...? If they were playing blue, misstep would stay in even if FOW goes out.. probably because cabal therapy is always a threat..

  11. #31

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    I'm testing this list:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy

    4 Phantasmagorian
    3 Gigapede

    2 Sadistic Hypnotist

    3 Dryad Arbor

    sb:
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Bayou
    4 Reverent Silence
    4 Nature's Claim

    The deck already as great games against everything, combo included (they usualy win on turn 3, so it gives us our turn 2 to therapy/hypnotist away their hand), it's only weakness is hate in the form of leyline and relic, or really bad luck wich can happen, so i put all my sideboard to deal with Leyline and also helps a lot against Relic, fetches are a must. I sb out 4 probe, 3 Gigapede, 2 Hypnotist, 2 Dread Return, 2 Narcomoeba (might seem odd but makes sense because you usually will draw more cards at the beginning, you also have more Dryad Arbor wich in a way replace them) and 2 Shambling Shell.
    Give me your thoughts...

  12. #32
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Hi everybody.

    This is my first post and I'd like to contribute with an idea 2 fight against Leyline's autoscoop... What about 4 Land Grant +1 Dryad Arbor + 4 Reverent Silence in SB? I'd rather prefer try to beat lelyline instead get a dread return collection on SB ... I know that it's too hard fight against them plus opponent's counters (if they play) but opp. would be forced mull to get leyline and wouldn't have nothing to stop our antigrav. hate. Reverent Silence could clean up the battlefield of several leylines copies also. About Nicholas's main deck I wouldn't change nothing.

    PD. Sorry 4 my English, I'm not an English speaker.

    Greetings.

  13. #33

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicTutor View Post
    Hi everybody.

    This is my first post and I'd like to contribute with an idea 2 fight against Leyline's autoscoop... What about 4 Land Grant +1 Dryad Arbor + 4 Reverent Silence in SB? I'd rather prefer try to beat lelyline instead get a dread return collection on SB ... I know that it's too hard fight against them plus opponent's counters (if they play) but opp. would be forced mull to get leyline and wouldn't have nothing to stop our antigrav. hate. Reverent Silence could clean up the battlefield of several leylines copies also. About Nicholas's main deck I wouldn't change nothing.

    PD. Sorry 4 my English, I'm not an English speaker.

    Greetings.
    Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitus.

  14. #34

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingu View Post
    Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitus.
    I don't think it's worth it to fight Leyline of the Void in your sideboard. If you do, the fetches are almost certainly better. Land Grant can be Spell Snare'd (we're on the draw, remember?), which is being played a lot right now since it lets you curve out with Mental Misstep, while Stifle is being played a lot less. Additionally the fetchlands give you an extra landfall trigger for Bloodghast.

  15. #35
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitus
    while Stifle is being played a lot less. Additionally the fetchlands give you an extra landfall trigger for Bloodghast.
    You're right. Didn't see in this way, and we've got the chance on T1 fetches bayou and play Cabal Therapy to protect Reverent Silence. Testing right now...

  16. #36

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Land Grant can be Spell Snared, but decks playing Leyline of the Void usually don't play Spell Snare :P.

    But no point trying to hate LotV.

    Resistance is futile!

  17. #37
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post

    wouldn't gut shot just eat the misstep you were avoiding by playing this deck?

    or should I assume that decks that play jailer won't be playing blue or misstep...? If they were playing blue, misstep would stay in even if FOW goes out.. probably because cabal therapy is always a threat..
    Jailer decks usually only have Jailer as their threat, or don't have Mental Misstep. The worst case scenario is that they counter Gut Shot and my own Mental Misstep and I lose to them that game or the match. Gut Shot cost 1 card in my hand a 2 life. Contagion cost 2 cards and 1 life and is invunerable to Mental Misstep. I have Mental Misstep to also fight Mental Misstep so unless they got multiple Misstep, Force of Will, or some trash like that I should be in good shape.

    I tested yesterday and ran into two or three decks packing Leyline of the Void so I got match losses to all of them. Seems like opponents never get unlucky to not find leyline in their mulls.
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  18. #38
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    IMO I wouldn't run Gut Shot only to stop random Jailers (the fact is that isn't a common hate graveyard card on actually SB lists, at least in my country), in addition to one casted copy is not enough to beat Gaddocks or Meddling Mage (2/2 both) and is weak against Mental Misstep. As a manaless dredge player, I'd prefer make a SB to fight Leylines, Tormod's, Relic, Needle/Revoke --> Phantasmagorian, instead make a removal creatures SB, cause in the worst scenario case, you could be beaten by a random Jailer, but otherwise, Gaddock and Meddling couldn't stop the graveyard mecanichs except the last one naming Therapy or Dread (blocking and dying our creatures, zombies would be come in anyway).

    About packing Contagion in SB: Very useful against Meddlings/random Jailers and Peacekeeper and invulnerable to MM, only Gaddock Teeg can stop it.

  19. #39

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    And how exactly do you want to fight Leylines and Relic with your sideboard? Like 11 Forests + 4 Reverent Silence?

    Just for those who also want to do things like that. You could also play some Plains plus Abolish, that would hit Leyline as well as Crypt/Relic and stuff in the same fashion. The only downside is that it doesn't dodge Daze (like Reverent) and that you don't get any use out of a Dryad Arbor.

    IMO, this deck doesn't need to fight Crypts, Spellbombs and such, because it can easily recover after an activation. Relic is more problematic, but it can be played around with Street Wraith or Baubles (nothing else btw).

  20. #40
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Looking at these lists makes me happy. Now, I have a few ideas I would like to throw out there, I have never played this deck, but I do have a substantial amount of experience with Dredge.

    1. As I look at the deck, I really want 10 lands and Putrid Imp. This would also enable Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul to be expolited. Maybe its just the Timmy side of me but I really like the idea of Ashen Ghoul in here, maybe even better than Bloodghast since it is not an entirely worthless creature.

    2. Playing a few lands also makes Darkblast very relevant which is a spectacular card itself and allows you to cast Therapy, either on urself to get the ball rolling or the opponent. I am not saying you have to do this turn 1 ... but its a good option.

    3. Probe gets Misstepped as does Putrid Imp .... but Imp seems just better and provides more Ichorid fodder.

    4. I really like the idea of Dryad Arbor. Not necessarily as a 4-of but, certainly brings a lot of new options to the table, in particular with the SB. It also helps w Shadow recursion.

    5. Yes, I realize this is "manaless", but when playing 10 lands it enables better discard outlets but still has the capabilities to revert back to manaless should u need 2. Options are always good.

    This deck seems like it has an absurd amount of potential, I will be testing it in the coming weeks. This is all speculation, but kind of the direction I am looking to take my build in. Some kind of a hybrid between manaless and LED versions. Honestly, as opposed to a Reanimator type approach, I like the idea of mainly beatdown strategy w a combo finish if necessary.
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