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Thread: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid

  1. #41
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    @ Izor:
    And how exactly do you want to fight Leylines and Relic with your sideboard? Like 11 Forests + 4 Reverent Silence?
    @ Pingu:
    sb:
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Bayou
    4 Reverent Silence
    4 Nature's Claim
    This could be a good example of SB ready for beat Leylines, because doing tricky things with fetchs and, as you say,Street Wraith, you could avoid Tormod's & Relic

  2. #42
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Fighting Leyline of the Void is a fool's errand. Fundamentally, this deck is a metagame deck, and can only survive in a Leyline of Void-less, combo-absent domain. If Leyline and/or Storm combo were to become popular, I'd suggest putting the deck down and waiting until the cycle starts itself over.
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  3. #43

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Excellent work.

  4. #44

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction View Post
    Looking at these lists makes me happy. Now, I have a few ideas I would like to throw out there, I have never played this deck, but I do have a substantial amount of experience with Dredge.

    1. As I look at the deck, I really want 10 lands and Putrid Imp. This would also enable Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul to be expolited. Maybe its just the Timmy side of me but I really like the idea of Ashen Ghoul in here, maybe even better than Bloodghast since it is not an entirely worthless creature.

    2. Playing a few lands also makes Darkblast very relevant which is a spectacular card itself and allows you to cast Therapy, either on urself to get the ball rolling or the opponent. I am not saying you have to do this turn 1 ... but its a good option.

    3. Probe gets Misstepped as does Putrid Imp .... but Imp seems just better and provides more Ichorid fodder.

    4. I really like the idea of Dryad Arbor. Not necessarily as a 4-of but, certainly brings a lot of new options to the table, in particular with the SB. It also helps w Shadow recursion.

    5. Yes, I realize this is "manaless", but when playing 10 lands it enables better discard outlets but still has the capabilities to revert back to manaless should u need 2. Options are always good.

    This deck seems like it has an absurd amount of potential, I will be testing it in the coming weeks. This is all speculation, but kind of the direction I am looking to take my build in. Some kind of a hybrid between manaless and LED versions. Honestly, as opposed to a Reanimator type approach, I like the idea of mainly beatdown strategy w a combo finish if necessary.
    The problem you'll have while tryin to fit lands into the manaless build is the threat density. The huge advantage over the usual Land builds is the threat density: Manaless has 8-12 cards that don't do anything in your graveyard while mana builds have at least 30. If you try to fit 10 lands into this build now, you'll end up with a much lower threat density. In fact, you'll run just as many lands as the mana builds, but you'll lack the draw engine of that variant. At the same time you'll lack the excellent DDDing of the manaless builds. So instead of having the best of both worlds, you'll probably have the worst of both worlds if you know what I mean.

    The real question is what you want to cut for the 10 lands plus discard Dorks. If you cut Baubles/Probes/Street Wraith, you'll end up with essentially a mana build with a slightly higher threat density, but without the raw draw engine power. If you cut additional Dredgers/Nether Shadows or whatever, you'll end up with a mana build that uses Baubles/Probes/Wraiths instead of the much better draw spells Breakthrough/Careful Study/Cephalid Coliseum. Either way, you didn't achieve much. Your discard Dorks still get countered, which double-timewalks you and your DDDing is either not threatening enough, or you lack the draw power to follow it up

    The Dryad Arbor idea is actually a good one. It goes well with the additional Forests plus Reverent Silence sb plan.

    And I totally agree that this variant has huge potential. Actually, if the metagame stays as it is, which means no Leylines and very few Storm Combo decks (thanks to Mental Misstep) I really can't think of any bad matchups.

  5. #45

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    I agree Dredging your second Phantasmagorian is a marginal play, but drawing or Dredging your first Phantasmagrian is a game winning play because it lets you discard your hand and win on either the same or the next turn. No other Dredged card has been as singularly important as Phantasmagorian in increasing the speed at which the deck wins and it adds to the consistency of your Dredge chains, you just run 4 of these and disregard Dredging the second as a consideration (which isn't even a bad thing becuase you discard the remaining three cards in your hand from the first Phantasmagorian and feed it to Ichorid).

    I'd also never cut a Phantasmagorian for a Gigapede, I have given up on Gigapede in the MD in favor of Baubles and have given up on Chancellor of the Forge as well for the Sphinx/Zealot package. I'd like to fit all 16 cantrips in the deck, but that requires either cutting Nether Shadow or cutting the Dread Return creatures and I'm not certain either is worth it.

  6. #46

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy

    4 Phantasmagorian
    2 Gigapede

    1 River Kelpie / Sphinx of Lost Truths
    2 Sadistic Hypnotist

    3 Dryad Arbor

    sb:
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Bayou
    4 Reverent Silence
    4 Nature's Claim

    I want to exchange 1 Gigapede for 1 River Kelpie or 1 Sphinx of Lost truths, i really want a loop in the deck.

    I have some questions (noob questions) about Kelpie:
    When i dread return it for the first time how many cards do i draw?
    How many do i draw when i use therapy or another dread return sacrificing it also for the first time, activating it's persist ability?
    And how many do i draw if i use therapy or dread return sacrificing it again when it has a counter?

  7. #47

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau View Post
    Fighting Leyline of the Void is a fool's errand. Fundamentally, this deck is a metagame deck, and can only survive in a Leyline of Void-less, combo-absent domain. If Leyline and/or Storm combo were to become popular, I'd suggest putting the deck down and waiting until the cycle starts itself over.
    If you're predicating your belief that this deck is geared specifically towards a targeted metagame, then why not adapt using Dread Return targets like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion? I mean, if you're already resigning yourself to playing the deck solely for that purpose, you might as well run more appropriate targets that make life much harder for a Combo player to win. My Return package currently looks like this:

    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Platinum Angel

    To me, Woodfall Primus feels more like a sideboard answer to permanents that need to be answered. The deck predominately uses the Attack Step and Primus does not clear any path of impending blockers (note I'm referring to the first game). It can already overrun an opponent in a hurry, so there really isn't anything you should fear Game One in that respect. You're going to overpower an opponent in a hurry and Platinum Angel seems like a more viable option against Combo the first game, as decks like Hive Mind and the like have very little they can do to answer that outright (unless they drop Emrakul, in which case it wouldn't matter anyways).

    I've also been testing Tolarian Serpent. This deck seems like it has a much easier time flashing-back Dread Return than traditional Ichorid given how powerful Phantasmagorian's outlet is. You're more than likely stripping away cards like Swords to Plowshares anyway with Cabal Therapy; I haven't had any issues with it sticking more than a turn. If it's dropped off Show and Tell by an opponent (assuming they drop Emrakul), you're almost certainly going to win the next turn or do a serious amount of damage. You could legitimately take fifteen damage, get a bunch of dudes (off Bloodghast or Nether Shadow-bound tokens) and proceed to crush an opponent the following turn (as you get first-dibs on the attack).

    Still testing, however.

  8. #48
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    If you're predicating your belief that this deck is geared specifically towards a targeted metagame, then why not adapt using Dread Return targets like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion? I mean, if you're already resigning yourself to playing the deck solely for that purpose, you might as well run more appropriate targets that make life much harder for a Combo player to win. My Return package currently looks like this:

    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Platinum Angel

    To me, Woodfall Primus feels more like a sideboard answer to permanents that need to be answered. The deck predominately uses the Attack Step and Primus does not clear any path of impending blockers (note I'm referring to the first game). It can already overrun an opponent in a hurry, so there really isn't anything you should fear Game One in that respect. You're going to overpower an opponent in a hurry and Platinum Angel seems like a more viable option against Combo the first game, as decks like Hive Mind and the like have very little they can do to answer that outright (unless they drop Emrakul, in which case it wouldn't matter anyways).

    I've also been testing Tolarian Serpent. This deck seems like it has a much easier time flashing-back Dread Return than traditional Ichorid given how powerful Phantasmagorian's outlet is. You're more than likely stripping away cards like Swords to Plowshares anyway with Cabal Therapy; I haven't had any issues with it sticking more than a turn. If it's dropped off Show and Tell by an opponent (assuming they drop Emrakul), you're almost certainly going to win the next turn or do a serious amount of damage. You could legitimately take fifteen damage, get a bunch of dudes (off Bloodghast or Nether Shadow-bound tokens) and proceed to crush an opponent the following turn (as you get first-dibs on the attack).

    Still testing, however.
    The absolute earliest you can consistently Dread Return something is turn three, on the draw (or turn four on the play G2); much too slow versus something like Storm. Running Iona and Platinum Angel seems pointless, as you can just win the game outright if you mill your deck via Sphinx or Kelpie, strip their hand, and DR Zealot. I'm not a fan of running specialty targets in the main.

    Also, why use Tolarian Serpent when you can just mill up to eighteen with Sphinx right away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingu View Post
    I have some questions (noob questions) about Kelpie:
    When i dread return it for the first time how many cards do i draw?
    How many do i draw when i use therapy or another dread return sacrificing it also for the first time, activating it's persist ability?
    And how many do i draw if i use therapy or dread return sacrificing it again when it has a counter?
    -One
    -One (it won't be in play to see Cabal Therapy get cast, but it'll trigger again when it comes back into play)
    -Zero (same as above, except it won't be coming back this time)

    Now that we've come close to a consensus decklist for now, I'd like to go over some sideboard options. I'll probably make a more in depth post concerning the board sometime later today.
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  9. #49

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau View Post
    The absolute earliest you can consistently Dread Return something is turn three, on the draw (or turn four on the play G2); much too slow versus something like Storm. Running Iona and Platinum Angel seems pointless, as you can just win the game outright if you mill your deck via Sphinx or Kelpie, strip their hand, and DR Zealot. I'm not a fan of running specialty targets in the main.
    I'm not certain what variation of Dredge you're running, but with cards like Cabal Therapy and most Storm pilots utilizing the first two to three turns cantripping and sculpting their hand, it is far from inconceivable for a solid turn three to four Dread Return targeting a very resourceful threat - and form of protection - in the form of Angel or Emperion. You fail to understand this archetype - unlike its counterpart - is inherently slower and in a Combo infested meta using the attack step just might not be enough. Dredge is a deck predicated on winning a large percentage of its Game One's, and to sacrifice that sort of advantage by using the excuse, "Well, I guess I'll just put the deck down and give up on it because I can't figure out a way to beat Combo and fold to it" is just unacceptable in my eyes.

    This deck plays to its strength on the draw. Explain to me, as the deck stands, how you plan to systematically destroy Combo (of any sort) with the configuration already in place? You have absolutely zero ways of protecting yourself outside of Cabal Therapy. Don't look now, but Legacy is shifting towards Combo which happens to be an awfully bad situation for this deck. If fifty-nine cards are already good enough to destroy Control or mid-range Aggro Control, explain to me why one card which could completely dismantle a Combo deck's plan Game One be a 'bad idea?' That logic just seems flawed.

    This line of thinking is not what I have in mind when playing Manaless Dredge in a large, unpredictable meta. The threat density in this deck is unlike any other, so winning through the Attack Step is obviously not a problem. What is a problem is using cards like Woodfall Primus to justify some sort of protection within those turns you specified when by the time aforementioned they should be dead anyways. You're better off using some sort of protection and firepower - like either of those two - in the current general meta. Combo is becoming more and more prevalent (don't look now but Pattern of Rebirth just stole Jupiter Games' NELC event with Hive Mind right in the mix) and the fact is this deck need several turns to 'go off.' Why would you relegate yourself to an auto-loss Game One when in the second and third games you're looking at an even more dire situation with a potentially damning Leyline or Relic?

    Combo in general is picking up steam and to just give up doesn't make any sense when there are plenty of effective options to be used. I also don't know what you're running in your sideboard, but I'm taking advantage of the fact my opponent could relegate me to being on the play Game Two by using a suite of lands and discard effects, in addition to some relegated artifact and enchantment destruction. People should be taking advantage of this and I just don't think they are. An opponent is going to put you on the play Game Two (potentially), and that alone could be catastrophic for an opponent if you prepare accordingly.

  10. #50
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    I'm not certain what variation of Dredge you're running, but with cards like Cabal Therapy and most Storm pilots utilizing the first two to three turns cantripping and sculpting their hand, it is far from inconceivable for a solid turn three to four Dread Return targeting a very resourceful threat - and form of protection - in the form of Angel or Emperion. You fail to understand this archetype - unlike its counterpart - is inherently slower and in a Combo infested meta using the attack step just might not be enough. Dredge is a deck predicated on winning a large percentage of its Game One's, and to sacrifice that sort of advantage by using the excuse, "Well, I guess I'll just put the deck down and give up on it because I can't figure out a way to beat Combo and fold to it" is just unacceptable in my eyes.
    I'm failing to understand that it's inherently slower to Dread Return something in Manaless Dredge than other Dredge variants? Aren't you just reiterating what I said in my previous post, that it'll be turn three before you can plausibly cast Dread Return (although, that's not really all that much slower than other Dredge variants)? I'm failing to understand how reanimating a Platinum Angel that gives the opponent a few outs in the form of Chain of Vapor or another bounce spell is better than just killing them that turn with Sphinx of Lost Truths into River Kelpie into Flame-kin Zealot, a line of play that also opens up all four copies of Cabal Therapy. I've already discussed on the previous page in this thread that this should be a Dread Return deck first and foremost, with the grind-'em out Ichorid recursion/Bridge token strategy acting as Plan B, since Plan B can act as a function of Plan A. This deck isn't nearly as slow as you seem to fathom, but by design it can't really best fast combo, specifically Storm combo (which is what I was referring to when I used the ambiguous term 'combo', sorry if that caused any misinterpretations), at least pre-Misstep; like Dread Return, Cabal Therapy won't usually be online until turn three. This permutation of Dredge can, however, beat slower two card combos like Show and Tell+Emrakul or Painter+Grindstone rather easily, especially with proper boarding. To provide an analogy, it would be like registering Merfolk in a field that you know is chock-full of Zoo; if you were to play this in a Storm-heavy meta, it just wouldn't be a good idea, and due to the restriction of having no mana to cast spells that would potentially make the matchup better, I wouldn't advise playing this deck if fast combo were to take off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    This deck plays to its strength on the draw. Explain to me, as the deck stands, how you plan to systematically destroy Combo (of any sort) with the configuration already in place? You have absolutely zero ways of protecting yourself outside of Cabal Therapy. Don't look now, but Legacy is shifting towards Combo which happens to be an awfully bad situation for this deck. If fifty-nine cards are already good enough to destroy Control or mid-range Aggro Control, explain to me why one card which could completely dismantle a Combo deck's plan Game One be a 'bad idea?' That logic just seems flawed.
    I haven't seen a shred of evidence that shows that the general metagame is shifting back to Storm combo (again, I hope there's no misunderstandings over the word 'combo'). Even if it were, the list I proposed on the first page is one of the quicker lists I've seen, running four Return targets that are proficient against combo in addition to a set of Urza's Bauble that can speed up the deck by a full turn. Again, why bring back a threat that can easily be nullified in the form of Iona or Platinum Angel when you can just win on the spot with Zealot?

    The problem with running protection in this build of Dredge is that there really isn't anything efficient aside from Therapy- Leyline of Sanctity, for instance, makes you wait a turn before starting up the engine. I'm not saying give up the fight against all forms of combo as there are good ways to fight non-Storm combo (multiple Proggies in vs. Painter, for example), but Storm has both speed and discard effects, which just seems like way too much to combat reliably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    This line of thinking is not what I have in mind when playing Manaless Dredge in a large, unpredictable meta. The threat density in this deck is unlike any other, so winning through the Attack Step is obviously not a problem. What is a problem is using cards like Woodfall Primus to justify some sort of protection within those turns you specified when by the time aforementioned they should be dead anyways. You're better off using some sort of protection and firepower - like either of those two - in the current general meta. Combo is becoming more and more prevalent (don't look now but Pattern of Rebirth just stole Jupiter Games' NELC event with Hive Mind right in the mix) and the fact is this deck need several turns to 'go off.' Why would you relegate yourself to an auto-loss Game One when in the second and third games you're looking at an even more dire situation with a potentially damning Leyline or Relic?
    Okay, by reading this paragraph, I see now that there was a misunderstanding over the word 'combo', although that Rebirth deck might still be a problem if it can consistently Hulk Flash by turn three (we don't care about Proggy). Again, the list I've proposed actually has a better combo matchup than the majority of decklists I've seen, especially Rausch's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    Combo in general is picking up steam and to just give up doesn't make any sense when there are plenty of effective options to be used. I also don't know what you're running in your sideboard, but I'm taking advantage of the fact my opponent could relegate me to being on the play Game Two by using a suite of lands and discard effects, in addition to some relegated artifact and enchantment destruction. People should be taking advantage of this and I just don't think they are. An opponent is going to put you on the play Game Two (potentially), and that alone could be catastrophic for an opponent if you prepare accordingly.
    You're diluting the deck too much if you plan on boarding in lands+castable spells (especially the fifteen card plan against Leyline that's being popularized in this thread) and in addition are banking on going runner-runner in a deck that doesn't like drawing cards (just to clarify, putting cards in your hand as opposed to dredging), doesn't have a whole lot of library manipulation, and can't really afford to mulligan.

    Thank you for the engaging discussion.
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  11. #51
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quick question.
    Has anyone tested the Junk match up? It looks hard to beat as it packs discard and creature removal. Not to mention a possible combo finish.

    I want to test manaless at a tourney this weekend, but it seems like the metagame will be shifted towards that type of deck.

    For reference my maindeck:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy

    4 Phantasmagorian
    3 Gigapede

    1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite <--- might change into other targets
    4 Chancellor of the Forge <--- might change into other targets

    Still working on the sideboard.

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  12. #52

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Cabal Therapy in Manaless Ichorid

    Am I playing it wrong or is it just me? You guys all seem to be relying heavily on your Cabal Therapies for your safety. If there is a problem, Cabal Therapy is usually the answer, but how many of you actually resolve Cabal Therapy? I've had my Cabal Therapies misstepped, forced, etc. I just don't see it resolving if we don't hard cast it. Even if they let one through the entire game, you might not even net any cards. So how is Cabal Therapy the catch all to all problems?

    I just feel like we need another form of discard. Is Gritixian Probe helping with this?

    Thanks for future answers and for reading my newb post.

  13. #53
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    I talked one of my buddies into playing this tonight. He was gonna play a 15 land build but decided against it when he realized he only had to spend $20 to get the rest of the terrible cards! All of my initial conceptions about this deck were totally wrong.

    Ashen Ghoul is awful. Period, its super slow and not worth running.

    We both felt the exact same way about Probe. It did not resolve all night, it was either MMed or Dazed. Not worth running in a heavy blue meta IMOP.

    Gigapede should certainly be in here, the exact number ... not sure, but 3x felt like overkill a lot of the time, perhaps 2 in the main would be perfect.

    There has to be some number of permanent killer DR targets in the board. Angel of Despair is the one we agreed should be there. he lost a game to peacekeeper in UW bullshit and to Blazing Archon in Reanimator. Had Angel of Despair been a 2-3of in the board, both would have been absurdly easy wins. He almost lost a game to Stax against magus of the Tabernacle, and had that player found Ghostly Prison at any point ... the game would just be over. It should be noted that he didn't cast a single spell in the match, this deck is almost absurdly good. Here is the list both of us will be running in the future:

    4 Street Wraith
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Phantasmagorian
    2 Gigapede
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Dakmor Salvage
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Bridge from Below
    3 Dread Return
    2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
    1 Flame-kin Zealot

    4x Dread Returns just felt really excessive. Almost 100% of the time they just sat there doing nothing while Ichorid and company smashed face. You only need 1 to resolve to win the game, but playing 3x DR and 2x Sphinx is to maximize game 1 combo abilities. I'm sure most will strongly disagree but ... neither of us really felt it necessary for 4.

    As far as the SB goes ... Leyline of Sanctity was a total house. Turning off Relic's annoying remove a card garbage. It was also crucial to winning against blue with Jace since they can't fateseal you and do the ultimate ability. In the future I really think a proper SB for this deck should be something along the lines of:

    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Spinning Darkness/Contagion
    4 Mental Misstep
    3 DR targets

    I would simply run 3x Angel of Despair, but Terrastodon, Norn, Sundering Titan, Iona, etc, all have their benefits. We really like the idea of Angel, and he wants 1 in the main, but it really feels like more of a SB card to me since its largely worthless game 1. Its still good, but why not just reanimate Sphinx and win? Thoughts?
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  14. #54
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    They could just fateseal themselves. I don't see Leyline against Jace being terribly strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
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  15. #55
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    @jin- Even if multiple copies of Cabal Therapy get countered, it won't really make a difference, because it means the opponent has had less business with which to combat your uncounterable forces in Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Nether Shadow, and Bridge tokens. Against blue control, they're not really necessary to resolve to win since blue control is a dog to this deck. Just like with Gitaxian Probe, think of it has a way to possibly accelerate the game further to your advantage, but don't use it as a crutch since you don't actually need to resolve Dread Return to win; you can just fall back on the deck's natural resilience. If you really do need to cast Dread Return, you need not worry, for you will eventually get to a point where your combined Therapies and Dread Returns outnumber their countermagic.

    @Pulp_Fiction- Completely agree with animating Sphinx->win over an Angel in the main. I don't know if Spinning Darkness/Contagion/Gut Shot is needed in the board, simply because I've NEVER seen anyone run Yixlid Jailer ever (and don't expect to), and hatebears like Gaddock Teeg weep in the face of the brutal Ichorid. Darkness is a nice find though. Have you tested the Urza's Bauble lists that have been suggested previously in this thread? I feel they have pretty much the same resiliency that the Bloodghast+Salvage lists have, but have an added speed boost.

    I agree that Angel of Despair should be in the board. Here are a list of targets I think could be possible inclusions in the board:

    Angel of Despair
    Terastodon
    Woodfall Primus
    Sadistic Hypnotist
    Ancestor's Chosen
    Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (mostly for the mirror, also has other obvious applications)
    Progenitus/Darksteel Colossus/Blightsteel Colossus/Serra Avatar (Avatar if you're classy) for Painter and Painter alone

    In addition, Chancellor of the Annex is already being considered just for its reveal ability, and it's a decent enough target in its own right.

    Besides targets, I think four Mishra's Baubles could be decent in matchups where we need more speed, and it even has the added benefit of blanking Relic's tap ability if you play it turn one instead of discarding. Mental Misstep seems like the best card alongside Chancellor to fight combo. I've played with Leyline of Sanctity and it was very good as well, although the tournament I did well in with it wasn't exactly prepared for Manaless Dredge.
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  16. #56
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by bakofried View Post
    They could just fateseal themselves. I don't see Leyline against Jace being terribly strong.
    It prevents the ultimate. But I'm not sure that dredge is really afraid of it anyway.

  17. #57
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Pulp_Fiction, Drop 1 Dakmor Salvage. Your going to see one in the first three dredges 70% of the time with three and I can guarantee that the 4th is less important than angel of despair.

  18. #58

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction View Post
    he lost a game to peacekeeper in UW bullshit.
    This is where Darkblast out of the board shines. It's somewhat narrow in the U/w match (as Peacekeeper is really the only target you legitimately care about anyway), but it is far too good to leave out.

    At worst, Darkblast can also hit Jailer if you hit a Salvage (assuming of course someone actually plays it).

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
    I haven't seen a shred of evidence that shows that the general metagame is shifting back to Storm combo (again, I hope there's no misunderstandings over the word 'combo'). Even if it were, the list I proposed on the first page is one of the quicker lists I've seen, running four Return targets that are proficient against combo in addition to a set of Urza's Bauble that can speed up the deck by a full turn.
    ...Ben Swartz goes undefeated with this deck with three in the Top Twelve? Take note of the fact that a large percentage of people are starting to shift over to the 'Hive Mind' mentality after Ben Wienberg cruised through the Swiss the previous week with it, as Tom Ma did before that, as the 2nd place at the G.P. executed before that. The deck is seeing an exponentially large increase in play not just on MOTL, but on the Open and independent Circuit as well - performing exceptionally well.

    That's not to take away from the other Top 16 installments including decks like Aluren, Orb-Naught, and Dark Depths all completely dominating the field. It doesn't matter necessarily what decks are dominating the field, but the fact that people are trying to get crafty and in fact are playing various types of Combo.

    I certainly don't believe this is a fluke; people are tired of seeing and hearing about S.F.M.-based strategy and right now Legacy is a format where you're either playing Combo or Mystic. This particular deck only beats one of those regularly, which is unfortunately just my point. You already have an option with Zealot to speed the kill up, and you could even run Sphinx if you desire. All I'm saying is that with Combo being as prevalent as it is, there's no reason to fold to it and try to "grind 'em-out" (as you put it), because you will absolutely not win that way against those decks which prey off that exact strategy.

    I think there's is much to be taken away from this as it references to the general overall meta. You'll notice a disturbing lack of any Combo presence the week before at Cincinnati, which is in large part the reason Rausch did so well with the deck. Whether or not Seattle was a fluke remains to be seen but I can assure you with Hive Mind at the driver's seat and other Combo riding the waves of 'Minds' prosperity, it is going to make life difficult for this deck to thrive, which is in large part why I strenuously recommend playing a singleton target dedicated to gaining an edge over the Combo player Game One. Bounce effects rarely see play Game One and generally don't come into discussion until post-board, so there's no reason to go there. I'm specifically gearing my train of thought towards Game One here.

    The element of surprise is gone the minute you elect to 'draw.'

  19. #59
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    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    I've tested ajfirecracker's list; it is a very interesting take, and it works. His theorycrafting makes much more sense when you play his exact (or nearly exact) list. His list is fast. That said, it is easier to interact with the deck (not a good thing) and it is less consistent. After testing his list (which was, thankfully, different than the 16-draw list I had made), I found Phantasmagorian played a very different role than it plays in many of these other lists. Going for the full 16 Free draw spells, multiples of Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow are weaker, he is right about that. I don't know if his take is the correct one, but I think everyone should try it out because it could be the correct way to go.

    // Dredgers - 16
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell

    // Free Discard Outlets - 2
    2 Phantasmagorian

    // Free Dudes - 10
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Nether Shadow

    // Free Card Draw - 16
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble

    // GY-Goodies - 12
    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below

    // DR Targets - 4
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
    1 River Kelpie (I'm still liking 1x more Sphinx more than this card)

    It plays pretty differently. It goes for the throat in a bunch of cases where other Manaless lists are slow-rolling. I like the speed of this deck. Again, I am worried about the consistency and vulnerability to interaction, but those might be sacrifices worth making. I'm not sure at this point.


    @ Hollywood

    I've also been testing Tolarian Serpent. This deck seems like it has a much easier time flashing-back Dread Return than traditional Ichorid given how powerful Phantasmagorian's outlet is.
    As KevinTrudeau pointed out, you need to use Sphinx. You should be winning on the same turn you cast your first Dread Return. If you aren't chaining Sphinxes (often 1 is enough, but sometimes you'll chain DR-Sphinx until you've dredged your entire deck, e.g. FKZ is on the bottom), and finishing with FKZ, then you are doing it wrong.

    You need a really good reason not to play these:
    +2-3 Sphinx
    +1 FKZ

    Now, perhaps we can argue you should run even more DR targets, but not at the expense of running at least 2 Sphinx, 1 FKZ. That is your bread'n'butter play.

    You fail to understand this archetype - unlike its counterpart - is inherently slower and in a Combo infested meta using the attack step just might not be enough.
    I'd argue that no Dredge variant belongs in a combo infested metagame, not even LED Dredge.

    The funny part is that you think this manaless ichorid is going to be capable of evolving to answer opposing combo. I don't see that happening. This is a deck which just loses to certain decks and certain strategies, and I don't think there is much you can do about it. Now, that might not seem acceptable to many, but I think it is a common thing to accept about many decks in the format.

    Most Dredge decks would consider Iona or Hypnotist, and they have, at best, one or two shots to use draw spells to dredge enough of their to have the resources to DR a defensive target. But, why do that in this deck? If you can DR, you might as well just win the game. You got the space in the main to just win, so do it.



    peace,
    4eak

  20. #60

    Re: Manaless Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    ...Ben Swartz goes undefeated with this deck with three in the Top Twelve? Take note of the fact that a large percentage of people are starting to shift over to the 'Hive Mind' mentality after Ben Wienberg cruised through the Swiss the previous week with it, as Tom Ma did before that, as the 2nd place at the G.P. executed before that. The deck is seeing an exponentially large increase in play not just on MOTL, but on the Open and independent Circuit as well - performing exceptionally well.

    That's not to take away from the other Top 16 installments including decks like Aluren, Orb-Naught, and Dark Depths all completely dominating the field. It doesn't matter necessarily what decks are dominating the field, but the fact that people are trying to get crafty and in fact are playing various types of Combo.

    I certainly don't believe this is a fluke; people are tired of seeing and hearing about S.F.M.-based strategy and right now Legacy is a format where you're either playing Combo or Mystic. This particular deck only beats one of those regularly, which is unfortunately just my point. You already have an option with Zealot to speed the kill up, and you could even run Sphinx if you desire. All I'm saying is that with Combo being as prevalent as it is, there's no reason to fold to it and try to "grind 'em-out" (as you put it), because you will absolutely not win that way against those decks which prey off that exact strategy.

    I think there's is much to be taken away from this as it references to the general overall meta. You'll notice a disturbing lack of any Combo presence the week before at Cincinnati, which is in large part the reason Rausch did so well with the deck. Whether or not Seattle was a fluke remains to be seen but I can assure you with Hive Mind at the driver's seat and other Combo riding the waves of 'Minds' prosperity, it is going to make life difficult for this deck to thrive, which is in large part why I strenuously recommend playing a singleton target dedicated to gaining an edge over the Combo player Game One. Bounce effects rarely see play Game One and generally don't come into discussion until post-board, so there's no reason to go there. I'm specifically gearing my train of thought towards Game One here.

    The element of surprise is gone the minute you elect to 'draw.'
    Who care about the element of surprise if you've gotten to the point where you can draw?

    Hive Mind is a deck that keeps pace with us, not one that blasts past us. It can only combo out as soon as Turn 4 (or 5 or 6, depending on how many 2-mana lands they draw) unless it gets Show and Tell, Hive Mind, and a Pact. That seems pretty bad. Even then, it's only Turn 3 unless they also have a 2-mana land, which pushes their god-hand up to 4 cards. They can also go for Turn 2-3 Emrakul, attacking to little consequence on Turn 3-4, and killing us on Turn 4-5. That's certainly enough time to bash through a single, not-dying blocker (so we have Bridge to lean on).

    In contrast, our god-hand is 1 card (Golgari Grave-Troll) and 6 anythings. Obviously it's sweet of some of those anythings are cantrips, but not necessary.

    @4eak:
    I'm glad you like it. I think the debate should be whether random bodies are better (which is mostly what Bloodghast and Chancellor of the Forge give you) or any particular combination of other cards is better, as the cantrips will dig you into your Dread Return, Ichorid, Bridge from Below, and Narcomoeba much faster than slow-dredging. I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in another Sphinx of Lost Truths, although if I do find room it should probably be the more cautious Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus.

    The other lists shouldn't be more consistent at anything except putting random bodies on the field. Granted, they have 3-4 Dakmor Salvage as dredgers 17-20, but those are really pitiful, and only worth having as incidental value (i.e. digging for a real dredger when that's your only line of play available).

    Regarding interaction: I think it's not that bad, really. The Baubles aren't countered by anything much, besides Force of Will and maybe Daze (which I haven't seen a lot of since Mental Misstep came around). Force turns our Bauble into a 0-mana Hymn to Tourach, which is at its worst in this deck, but is still reasonable. Daze is a lot more value for our opponent, being a 1-for-1, but it still Solfatara's (okay, okay, Boomerang's) them for no mana.

    @people: I think if you're going to board a speed change (meaning putting any of the core components of your deck in the board, so you can add/subtract cantrips and subtract/add extra bodies) you really need to run 12 or so SB cards for it to be worth it. If you're just bringing in 4 Gitaxian Probe against Storm, you're really not doing much to change the speed of your deck, but you're still devoting 4 SB slots to that change. I think a more productive change for a deck whose only draw element is Street Wraith would be a board of: 4 LED, 3 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Urza's Bauble, 2 Mishra's Bauble, +2 DR Targets. Obviously that's a huge sideboard just for that plan, but I don't see the plan having much impact on your matches unless you have a big chunk of your sideboard devoted to it. (The main reason being that LED is probably our best card against Storm, but it needs cantrips to be good)

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