I understand your logic, but you also are forgetting Hive Mind runs Grim Monolith and can legitimately cast Hive Mind the second turn with a Pact, not even requiring a Show and Tell to win the game. It's just another avenue the deck takes in its winning strategy. I would like to know logistically what this deck's percentages are in the Hive Mind match-up (don't get me wrong: I'm an advocate of this deck).Originally Posted by ajfirecracker
Also, has anyone considered Unmask as an option (main or board) as a free outlet to discard a card from your hand Turn One when forced to be on the play Game Two? That seems relatively good against Relic as their Turn One will only be able to hit the Unmask and not the enabler (Unmask has to resolve before they can activate Relic). From there you can opt to 'slow-Dredge' and force an opponent into cracking his or her Relic earlier than wanted.
Of course, you could Unmask an opponent and take the Relic, but it seems more important to discard your own card rather than bank on a gamble they have a Relic in their opening draw while triple-Time Walking them in the process.
Concerning Darkblast+Salvage- again, runner-runner in a deck that doesn't have much in terms of library manipulation and can't feasibly mulligan.
I'm well aware of slower combo's resurgence, I clarified three times in my initial response that I was referring to fast combo, specifically Storm combo, when I said that this deck would have no chance in a combo-ridden environment. You're making an argument against my points even though I'm in agreement that opposing combo decks need to be taken into consideration while building a maindeck, and am championing a version of the deck that would have a superior combo matchup in comparison to most other builds. I wasn't referring to grinding out games against combo, I explicitly stated that that strategy should be a Plan B to the Plan A of Dread Returning a Sphinx of Lost Truths into FKZ.
You're right, an additional Sphinx might be just better than Kelpie; the only reason I'm running Kelpie is that in principle, once it gets going, you'll assuredly bin your whole library, whereas Sphinx might come up short in a few corner cases. Kelpie can also be very awkward when it's your first DR target sometimes.
That list makes me think that running four Mishra's Bauble in the board might very well be a good idea, so you can easily board into that configuration against faster decks. I'll have to test it before running that config main, but it does look pretty sweet.
Unmask exiles.
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he means unmask yourself, not the opponent..
My mistake. I only read the first sentence of that second paragraph. Unmask on the play targeting yourself seems alright, it for sure has a large upside; Manaless has a much lower percentage of winning game two, so I guess you might as well go all out.
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The problem with aiming an Unmask at yourself postboard on the play is then you just auto-scoop to a Tormod's Crypt or a Surgical Extraction, as you just knocked 3 cards out of your hand, putting you at 4, and after a Crypt you won't be able to drop anything into your yard for 4 turns.
You'd auto-scoop anyway if an opponent has those cards in their grip, so it wouldn't make much difference 'losing' a turn or two in the process if you can punish an opponent for forcing you to play first. You could play around Surgical Extraction (unlike Extirpate) with a timely Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian activation, but Crypt would hurt a bit more.
Unmask provides you the flexibility to discard a card before an opponent has the opportunity to drop a Relic and start eradicating your yard, and considering how the general consensus here is to pack it in to any general graveyard hate like Relic or Leyline, you might as well explore all options.
When you have the thoughtline of ''I'mma gonna Unmask myself, yeah!'' you lost your match, scoop it up and move on. I have never Unmasked myself in all the games of Dredge I have ever played in Eternal. If I want to Umask myself I will say fuck it and play One with Nothing. Yes thats how good the idea of Unmask on yourself is. Use Unmask on the person sitting in front of you always. Even if they have Misdirection.
Usually you can just DDD and play through Surgical Extraction AND Tormod's Crypt in a game need be depending on how resilient your list is. Running more creatures gives you a better chance, so I go x4Ichorid,Bloodghast,Nether Shadow-Narc. 16 Beaters is usally enough to nail them out combined with ''derp derp catch all cabal therapy''. Gitaxian Probe is worth running.. I would almost say always. If they Mental Misstep is they just Shock'd themselves and that puts you on a faster clock for Beatz.
Dread Return targets are probably the best issue to discuss. I have Angel of Despair as my MD target still and it works fine in conjunction with FKZ. Sphinx's really aren't needed as a filler target and would be better off giving you room for more beats.
The combo thing? Well I think I have some alright chances. I have x4 Mindbreak Trap and x4 Mental Misstep plus x3 Leyline of Sanctity. Against The Hive Minds I prolly have to get lucky like I would if they shuffled up LoTV and starting mulling.
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I'm more or less settled on a 16 cantrip MD and a "grinder" SB, Ichorid and Narcomoeba have been more than enough to support an average of T3 Dread Return and the Gigapedge, Nether Shadow and the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast engine is the best SB vs Tormod's Crypt esq. hate.
The number of Phantasmagorians is not debatable, I understand how AJ is using them in his list, but I think he is underestimating the consistency of drawing them in his oppenning hand or dredging into them in his first 4.5 cards, no card does more in Manaless Dredge than Phantasmagorian and it has been absolutely critical in all of my turn 3 goldfishes.
"Final" list
MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Streeth Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
SB
4 Nether Shadow
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
3 Gigapede
@Final Fortune The idea of having limited game versus Relic of Progenitus is terrific, what a great sideboard. Relic like.. is hard to fight even with Bauble and Street Wraith helping because they will eventually wipe the slate clean and draw a card. So you stalled them.. till they find another Relic. I think your on a good track for boarding in Beatz though. Gigapedge? Is this like ''Core-44''.
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Fixed Typo
I think it's just "Core," the deck was missing a fundamental turn vs. the slow(er) combo decks like Hive Mind so concentrating on the speed of the deck game 1 and then the resiliency of the deck game 2 is all important.
About the only things I question are whether or not the second Flame Kin Zealot should be the third Sphinx of Lost Truths or a River Kelpie and whether or not the SB should be 3xGigapedge, 4xDakmor Salvage or vice versa.
I don't actually play 8 Baubles to fight Relic of Progenitus, because even with 8 Baubles you still lose game 2 always. I think we have to rely on the fact that our opponents will diversify their SB hate, so they'll only have 1 Relic of Progenitus to draw the whole match and I'm not metagaming vs. 1 card they have to draw in their first 7 out of 75 cards - especially with Street Wraith.
The best way to play this deck is to give the metagame and SB hate the finger and just do what you do.
What are you even talking about? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounded? See, this is why players like this don't take the time to explore all avenues of testing or maximizing the use out of every potential option and sputter off nonsense like using One With Nothing, when you've obviously forgotten this is a Manaless Dredge deck. That means good luck finding one of three cards in your entire deck in conjunction with a terrible option susceptible to Mental Misstep.
It's a legitimate option instead of giving your opponent a free draw and turn before you can do anything. Explain to me intelligently why I should play a card as terrible as One With Nothing over a Dredge staple like Unmask...no matter how it's used.
Also, you should be using Sphinx as 4eak mentioned. It's a blowout when it hits and chaining into FKZ is much better than destroying a random permanent.
Cool take on the maindeck and its correlation with the sideboard. I'd definitely go with +1 Sphinx/Kelpie over the second Zealot because the additional Sphinx will find your Zealot in addition to any silver bullet sideboard target you may be in need of. Speaking of which, are you sure it's a good idea to not run something like a single Terastodon or Angel of Despair in the board?
'Core 44' was a failed attempt of mine to subscribe the people in this thread to use a shorthand writing of the decklist for ease of use; it also established a minor reassurance of the core of the deck. The idea was taken from the Goblins thread, but never took off. Just forget it ever happened.
Glad you're on board with the Sphinx/Zealot plan. ;)
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Okay, here are some ideas that may or may not be worth looking into.
Idea #1: Aether Vial
This may be a pretty crazy idea, but I thought about using AEther Vial as a sideboard card. It's going to take infinite turns to ramp it, but the opponent is going to be slower too. Mental Misstep is probably the first card that your opponent is going to sideboard out. If you win the first game, your opponent will probably let you play instead of draw. Aether Vial benefits from this. You have high threat density, and although the creatures aren't spectacular, it's an extra way to swarm the board.
Gigapede and Phantasmagorian are big enough to win games against decks like Standstill. You may still get beat by Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives for 1, though.
Idea #2: Hate Sideboard
In addition to the 3 Dakmor Salvages, you can go to 11 lands by using your sideboard to fight hate:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
3 Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence
Idea #3: Golgari Brownscale / Firemane Angel
This deck probably doesn't need life. Ancestor's Chosen is probably a lot better than these cards too. Golgari Brownscale is a dredger (albeit slow), that gives you life every time you dredge. This is useful, because it serves 2 roles. It buys you a little more time and it's still a dredger. The biggest problem is that it isn't black, so Shambling Shell is still better. If you are looking to cut gigapedes, I would consider replacing them with Golgari Brownscale.
Another interesting card is Firemane Angel. I really like the fact that you don't have to do anything for the lifegain, which is relevant against a deck like Burn (which has recently been having some success). If that deck shows up more, both Golgari Brownscale and Firemane Angel could could really kill the deck. I like these a bit better than Ancestor's Chosen because Ancestor's Chosen requires dread return and 3 creatures, which you will not have against burn.
These cards are not relevant now but it's nice to know that whenever we need lifegain, there is plenty to go around.
Idea #4: Vengeful Pharaoh
I really like this card, even if it isn't nice to remove your own bridges. The thing about Pharaoh is that you can remove them to Ichorid if there are bridges in your graveyard, and you can cheat them in your graveyard with Phantasmagorian during the attack step.
Bridges are really good, I realize that. But sometimes, you don't have bridges, or you have bridges without creatures. In those situations, Vengeful Pharaoh can hold down the fort until Nether Shadows, Narcomoebas and Bloodghasts take over. With Vengeful Pharaoh, your deck will be more inevitable because your opponent can't really attack into you and you just build up a bunch of free creatures every turn, EVEN without Bridge from below. You also have the choice of dredging him back in the graveyard or drawing him, after he's returned to the top of your deck. It is also a solid Dread Return target (Death Touch, 4 turn clock, out of bolt range)
Comment about bauble lists
I don't like how people try to speed up the maindeck and sideboard into Rausche's list in game 2. If you find yourself losing game 1, you are either playing against combo (If the meta is better for combo than for dredge you should have played combo anyway), or you're a bit unlucky/bad.
Yeah, -1 Flame Kin Zealot for +1 Sphinx of Lost Truths or River Kelpie is a given, you'd rather Dread Return Sphinx of Lost Truth once or twice and develop your board position over Flame Kin Zealot in any situation in which Flame Kin Zealot can't end the game.
I'm more or less certain on Terrastadon not being included in the 75, all of the relevant hate cards stop us from dredging, so relying on an anti-hate card that has to be dredged and Dread Returned is weak. If I start losing games to Moat or Propaganda, I'll reconsider my position, but until then anti-hate should be avoided and when you think about it any time they plan to play one of these cards on turn 3+ we've got really good odds of Therapying them off it.
Honestly, I can't find a single, reactive card in the SB that's worth a damn vs anything.
Regarding Unmask, I'd rather play Lion's Eye Diamond, because you're fucked if they counter Unmask or remove your Dredger regardless so you may as well lose one less card when Lion's Eye Diamond is countered and discard 5 cards instead of 1.
@Bruizar
Not true, Manaless Dredge has issues racing High Tide, Hive Mind and Burn, deck's that don't interact in the attack step to kill you by turn 4 are a serious issue and need to be raced. Until some one can actually show me a legitimate use for the SB that really mproves a match up enough to win games post-board, it's just better to play a transformative board instead.
Dredge doesn't auto-win game 1 vs everything, which is exactly why I've found myself falling into the Bauble and Sphinx/Zealot camp.
Last edited by Final Fortune; 07-29-2011 at 07:31 AM.
And what happens if your opponent drops Crypt after LED? That's a total blowout. Unmask doesn't fill it up, but it gives you the necessary enabler to slow-dredge around hate. Big difference.
I think the deck has a much easier time getting around Crypt and Relic as opposed to Leyline and Elephant Grass (or Propaganda-like effects). Nature's Claim is the obvious catch-all, but with all of the additional talk surrounding Reverent Silence is it worth it to give the opponent so much life considering we're going for the 'grind 'em' out strategy here?
Also, while we're on the subject of Nature's Claim, what does everyone think of Elvish Spirit Guide?
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-29-2011 at 11:27 AM.
I have some good locks of hair, I wonder why I get pimpslapped for stating my opinion?
Using Sphinx is a good way to win you the game now, but granted having something that has other narrow aplications is good too. I think Sphinx should be replaced with Cephalid Colliseum because it is a land. amiright?
Elvish Spirit Guide.. Is not so good of a idea. We potentially make our Leyline matchup not a auto scoop by going -2 but worse since we DDD on ourselves and giving them +4 lifes. I like the idea of have 1 card or 2 to answer their hate, and if it works it will work since you got a game three anyways. 8(ESG,Claim) cards fills up your sideboard.
Last edited by Shax; 07-30-2011 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Happy Birthday!
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New idea for the anti-Leyline of the Void plan, if you really want it:
Maindeck:
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Fetchland
4 Bloodghast
SB:
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Nature's Claim
4 Emerald Charm
Why on earth would you want to do this? The answer is simple: You only spend 1 card killing Leyline of the Void if you use Undiscovered Paradise or Chancellor of the Tangle to do it, which is better than spending 2.
You are fucked either way, you will not recover from being 3 cards and 1 dredger down via. Unmask so you may as well go all in with Lion's Eye Diamond. Packing "anti-hate" is stupid, pointless and completely a waste of SB space, you can't play around the hate without destroying the synergy of the deck. Dredge's only choice is to play thru' hate, which it is much better at than people give it credit for.
We're not playing aggro-control, we're not going to have evenly spread winning percentages versus the field with a wet blanket of counterspells and SB hate. We're Dredge, we are going to have horrendously lopsided games in our favor and hope to god our deck is far enough off the radar to embarass the competition.
It's the nature of the beast, just accept it.
Although I feel that Unmasking yourself isn't that great of an idea, I do feel that the deck needs a bit more disrupt. Without being cast, people often readily counters my Cabal Therapy allowing 1 or 2 in late game which has little to no affect on their hand. It might as well be a Gritixian Probe. For this reason, I feel that Unmask might be important to fill in a gap that used to be filled by a hardcasted Cabal Therapy. Either that or I'm playing Cabal Therapy wrong....
You have interesting ideas. Also, I agree with your comment about baubles. I myself choose to stick pretty closely to Rausch's main deck. I guess to most people, it feels like Rausch preboarded..
I concur.. Anti-hate seems like it requires too many of the 75 to change warping the entire deck..
I think everyone's in agreement that there are several avenues we can explore as far as the main-deck is considered. There's the stock list Rausch played in Cincinnati, and there's also the Bauble list 4eak has mentioned. Either way, the deck can still explode very fast and I'm sure its Game One win percentages are through the roof.
I think our focus should shift to the sideboard here. The fact is the deck has virtually no mana, so we should ask ourselves if packing it in to relegated hate is the way to go or taking advantage of the opportunity to blend a well thought-out strategy to beat cards like Leyline, Crypt, etc. is worth considering.
Remember, it is very likely we'll be setup to play Game Two, which in turn can generate an advantage for us by giving us the opportunity to play something relevant.
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