I dont know if i agree with cutting the shadow and flayer and griselbrand. Chancellor of the annex in my opinion is just not that great. In addition leyline seems like a bad choice that time walks us. Playing against storm i have just won turn 2 dread return griselbrand dredge the whole deck flayer combo. This has happened time and time again and cutting the DR package limits the explosiveness and consistency of manaless.
So...
I think I want Chancellor of the Annex back in the main.
I apollogize for all my nay-saying, but Deathrite Shaman really seems not as bad, as I thought it is.
Still... I think our 8 outs [Phantasmagorian & Street Wraith] aren't enough to fight them. I really like Contagion [see... I learned how to write it =P], but it is more a pseudo-out, and I like it MUCH more against turn 2 Shamans or Oozes or whatever. With 4 Chancellors main we could get a little edge against combo, and we would have 90,1% chance to open one of 16 outs [if you count Contagion], to really trump the massively overplayed Shaman.
Problem is, what to cut? I tryed to shrink the DR-Package [-1 Griselbro, Flayer, Dread Return], and -1 Shambling Shell.
[Dropping the propabilities from 88,2%/91,6% to 86,1%/89,8%] opening with a dredger. [7/8 cards drawn]
But I am not sure if this is the way to go. I don't see any other cards, that seem cut-able, which is the main problem, IMO. In the past, I'd said Phantasmagorian, but not in these times.
Chancellor is as good as advertised. I have the deck in paper (and Dan online) and we're sort of trading off a little bit each week, keeping the local metagame honest against either of us. It's a DR target in a pinch, it protects us from t1 Deathrite Shaman and helps us "reset" the play/draw position back to favor us. The first time I played the stock list, I knew that I wanted this type of effect. This deck is very explosive, but it always seemed about a turn too slow to get into good position against the DRS decks.
Leylines are pretty necessary, actually, if you don't want to lose to the faster combo decks in the format. Since LED decks are a much larger pillar in the online metagame than on paper, this makes sense. You can say that you can race them all day, but sometimes you just get t2'ed anyways (see Gerry's summary of matches). Leyline loses you a turn, but if you have it in your opener, they probably lose way more than one turn trying to find an answer.
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Another rules question. Do players keep passing priority at end of turn? Say example...
During my opponents end of turn I activate my Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then my opponent doesn't respond so I dredge with the wraith... After which I respond and activate Phantasmagorian again... After the Phantasmagorian returns to my hand, can I still cast Noxious Revival? Or does it automatically go to my untap step since my opponent decides not to respond?
Since everything is put on the stack, you can still keep doing stuff.
Hello all!
I will be writing a tournament report soon from the experience I gained at NELC over the weekend.
Some minor input to add to the discussion though. Main I will be running 4x Probe as well as 4x Unmask in the main. The biggest problem I had was not getting a Therapy online early enough to disrupt my opponents. Against storm I see Unmask being invaluable. With Probe, not only does it give manaless more explosive power behind it but it also makes Therapy that much more threatening. I will be posting my newest list here soon that has the ability to win on turn two more reliably.
I have seen some manaless variants online.
http://www.mtgpulse.com/search#[info...harchetype=63]
Hi all,
Could you please help me with some specifics with Manaless Dredge?
I know the deck well fairly well, but lately I've been getting some questions about the technical stuff and I'm not that sure of a few things!
Let's say i begin turn one on the draw. Draw a card.
8 cards, end of turn I discard down to 7 - is it the clean up step or the end step this happens?
Now once I've discarded down to 7 cards at the end of my own turn 1, I can then cycle a Street Wraith or activate Phantasmagorian (or both).
Can these two lines of play be used in the clean up step?
Phants uses the stack, but does Street Wraith use the stack when you cycle?
I always assumed so....
(I ask because of Extirpate states no other cards may be placed on the stack)
Cheers!
You discard at the clean up step, which is after the end step. No spells or abilities can be activated at the time of the cleanup step. You can activate Phantasmagorian + Street Wraith during your end step, but it would probably be your next end step after your first turn because you had to skip your end step to go to the cleanup in order to discard.
Cycling, in general, is an activated ability, so yes Street Wraith uses the stack if you cycle it.
1st, hi everyone, i'm new to the forum
secondly, i have a question.. how does manaless tipycally deals with mulligans? since, unless i'm missing something, i don't see a manner of discarding a single card without getting up to 8
3rd i really like this list:
maindeck: 60
4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 dakmor salvage
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
4 bloodghast
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
4 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
2 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound
SB: 15
4 dryad arbor
4 reverent silence
2 natures claim
1 verdant catacombs
1 forest
3 soul spike
but i haven't yet managed to win one post board.. how do you guys normally manage to do it with all the hate? i don't seem to have as much trouble with the l.e.d. version..
what about this sb?
4 soul spike
4 bump in the night
4 dryad arbor
3 putrid imp
why not try to bypass the hate altogether? make a few dents where you can and stick'em with some spikes and bumps?
4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 Unmask
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
3 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
3 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor
Side:
2 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Natures Claim
3 Reverent Silence
4 Sickening Shoul or Contagion
I'm not a huge fan of Bloodghast and Drakmor Salvage. I haven't tested the above list out yet but I like being aggressive and being proactive by disrupting key pieces in their hand. While maintaining explosive power. I've played this deck for a few months now and I have notice one thing. The longer the game plays out for manaless the worse the game gets for the dredge player.
Ill have to correct my post later. There is only supposed to be 3 g.probe.
Last edited by Jankwolf; 02-05-2013 at 07:33 PM.
@werlin There is almost no reason to ever mulligan with this deck, because as you noted you cannot discard until you hit 8 cards so a mulligan is a timewalk. This has been extensively discussed in the thread, and there have been a couple scenarios mentioned that might actually demand a mulligan.
The 6 Probes is obviously a mistake, and you seem to be missing a 4 of in the maindeck unless I'm misscounting?
thx Shadowmap
may you give me the general outlines of those extreme situations?
I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.
As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.
Currently Playing:
Dredge / Hive Mind / Belcher / Sneak-Show
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I've mulled with 0 dredge cards in hand and came out on top. That may be luck on my part. I should have clarified with my longer games comment. That only applys to post board. Allowing them to dig for more hate is a no go especially if we get stuck trying to deal with a Leyline or RIP.
I'll back up Terrible time here, mulligan =
Post board the gamestate is all about what biz your opponent can top deck to beat you.
Therapy can do enough to let you DDD enough to not even care, but going all in (less than 7 cards in hand) is something I usually don't do unless I'm winning on THAT turn, post board.
Probe is a card I want to run, but I just always find myself needing stuff other than more speed. It's always the first card I would board out, meaning I have to question why it's in my deck to start with.
i have to agree with TerribleTim68 on this. I played this deck too for a long time now, the longer it gets the better. why? aside from doing your griselbrand no jutsu thing... your recurring creatures would eventually show up, beat them up with ichorids, or build your own "the walking dead" strategy with bridge from below. there's just so little your opponent can do against you. most of the decks cant interact with it. even deathrite shaman is having a hardtime against this deck specially if they're not familiar with the build. . i'm also a fan of dakmor/bloodghast package.
for mulligan. its rare for this deck to mulligan unless you dont have at least 1 dredger (out of 15-16 dredger cards) in hand .
Made the Finals of our local event with Manaless Dredge. I'll post details from it tomorrow.
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