Whats the best deck to fight Hivemind?

[KobeBryan]

So whats the worst MU for Hivemind?

[dragonwisdom]

Merfolk running 4 Force, 4 daze, 4, cursecatcher and 4 wastelands

And 4 spell pierce in the board. If you really want to get cute, run Sundial in the board

Daze and spell pierce can mitigate packs in the right situation. Cursecatcher stops just about everything but Hivemind itself.

Plus, Fish can put them on a clock.

You should also be running metamorph/image for Emrakul. Just remember to NOT use them for show and tell. Wait until it's your turn to cast.

Wasteland ancient tomb/traitors right away.

[4eak]

I think the Gatekeeper of the Format (read: Merfolk) performs well here.

In my experience, Merfolk has a good matchup against Hivemind. You need to make sure you are countering the right spells (and using Wasteland correctly); Hive Mind wins way too many games against players that aren't familiar with it or don't know how to play against it.

If you wanted, you could tweak Merfolk to have an even better matchup.


peace,
4eak

[KobeBryan]

Merfolk running 4 Force, 4 daze, 4, cursecatcher and 4 wastelands

And 4 spell pierce in the board. If you really want to get cute, run Sundial in the board

Daze and spell pierce can mitigate packs in the right situation. Cursecatcher stops just about everything but Hivemind itself.

Plus, Fish can put them on a clock.

You should also be running metamorph/image for Emrakul. Just remember to NOT use them for show and tell. Wait until it's your turn to cast.

Wasteland ancient tomb/traitors right away.

Why wouldn't u use metamorph with show and tell if they use it with show and tell?

Also, if merfolk really gets them, why isn't merfolk being used all too much?

[dragonwisdom]

posted by another member of the source
"
Originally Posted by RhazeCain View Post
1) Can Metamorph copy Emrakul?
My answer: Yes, both are entering the battlefield simultaneously. They "see" each other much like 2 mountains ETB count each other for Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle (I knew these players had used Valakut before). Thus, Metamorph can copy Emrakul.
Incorrect. They are entering play simultaniously, and that's why the metamorph cannot copy Emrakul. If metamorph triggered when it entered the battlefield, then that would work (except that metamorph would already be dead for being a 0.0 before said ability resolved). But it doesn't enter play and then copy something, it modifies how it enters play by entering play as a copy of something on the battlefield. That means seaid thing therefore must be on the battlefield AS the metamorph is coming into play, which the Emrakul is not - since they are entering play at the same time, there's no point at which the Emrakul is in play but the metamorph isn't yet.

So at one instant Metamorph and Emrakul are both about to enter the battlefield together, but before they can, Metamorph has to chose something already on the battlefield to enter as a copy of. Then they both enter."


hope the above helps

[dragonwisdom]

Also, if merfolk really gets them, why isn't merfolk being used all too much?

Well, Zoo is having a resurgence? And Zoo just kills Merfolk. Though in a tournament I was just at 2 fish players made top 8. Once combo rears it's ugly head as in the case of the most recent starcity tournament, more people will play fish.

The mental misstep era has been format warping
1) before misstep combo had a greater presence, painter, Epic storm, Ad Nauseum etc

2) once misstep was printed, decks of Attrition (stoneforge/Jace decks) and slower combos such as Natural order took over
people were even boarding out Force of wills for misstep. Agroloam even took Baltimore by storm. (pun intended)

3) The smart people noticed this and played combo.

4) It will be interesting to see what happens in Star city Pittsburgh.

[(nameless one)]

Wouldn't CounterTop stop Pacts without Hivemind copying the ability? Because the last time I checked, if you Force a Pact, your opponent also copies the Force, which then he/she will use to counter the original Force.

[death]

Hive Mind's ability will still trigger and a copy of the pact will be put on the stack regardless. Same thing with Chalice@0.

A strong deck that can fight Hive Mind and also perform well in any meta is Natural Order with red splash for Pyroblasts.

[John Cox]

Why wouldn't u use metamorph with show and tell if they use it with show and tell?

Also, if merfolk really gets them, why isn't merfolk being used all too much?

Merforlk is one of the more popular decks right now.

[testing32]

Team America has all the stuff Hive Mind doesn't like. Discard, FoW, Daze, Stifle and wasteland.

[DrHealex]

A strong deck that can fight Hive Mind and also perform well in any meta is Natural Order with red splash for Pyroblasts.

I'll agree with this one, I don't think I have even lost a game too it with NO rug. Merfolk is also very good against it, when it's not being oppressed by the MAN. Hive Mind just gets free wins versus the inexperienced player, which there are plenty of. I am sorta surprised the deck is as popular as it is. I sleeved it up a month ago and wasn't particularly impressed by it.

[lordofthepit]

I think Team America, Merfolk, and various U/R decks are the best suited to fight Hive Mind, in that order.

[hyc8028]

The greatest assets of Hive Mind is that the combo doesn't depend on 1cc and 2 cc as much as other deck, so that makes Misstep/Snare pretty much dead cards and creature removal are dead to them as well. That basically turn off 1/6 of the deck. Counterspell/Spell Pierce/REB/Clique slow them down a bit. Clique in response to show and tell is devestating. Disrupt them with Hymn is also a way to go.

[majikal]

Just play Angel's Grace.

[kiblast]

Landeed with 3 Clique 3-4 Thoughtseize and 3 Extirpate in the board seems a pretty difficult MU for Hive Mind at least post side.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Just play Angel's Grace.

This. Hive Mind is a bitch because the answers to it are super narrow, but if you can land those answers you probably win the game since most builds run zero ways to deal with non-creature permanents.

Angel's Grace is uncounterable and wins the game 90% of the time, or if they know you have it they have to play around it and make sure they can pay their own Titan triggers or drop Emrakul which slows them down and takes them off one wincon. Sundial of the Infinite completely shuts off Hive Mind and drops uncounterable off of Show and Tell. It also is out of Misstep range leaving them only Force or Spell Pierce to counter most of the time. So if they know or think you have it once again they either have to slow down to play around it (IE not play Show and Tell if they are going to Hive Mind) or just rely on Emrakul to win. Either way they still have Emrakul which kind of sucks but what can you do? Emrakul is easier to deal with anyways, any deck with Knight can drop him off Show/Tell and get Karakas and run Grace and probably have a huge advantage in the matchup. Of course a lot of people now know people are going to be sideboarding against Hive so they won't run it. For better or worse I'm not even considering it in my SB because I think it will be heavily hated at GenCon and I'm relying on the overreactions of players at the lower tables to hate it heavily and keep it out of the top tables. Then I just have to hope to dodge it the first couple rounds.

[lordofthepit]

This. Hive Mind is a bitch because the answers to it are super narrow, but if you can land those answers you probably win the game since most builds run zero ways to deal with non-creature permanents.

Angel's Grace is uncounterable and wins the game 90% of the time, or if they know you have it they have to play around it and make sure they can pay their own Titan triggers or drop Emrakul which slows them down and takes them off one wincon. Sundial of the Infinite completely shuts off Hive Mind and drops uncounterable off of Show and Tell. It also is out of Misstep range leaving them only Force or Spell Pierce to counter most of the time. So if they know or think you have it once again they either have to slow down to play around it (IE not play Show and Tell if they are going to Hive Mind) or just rely on Emrakul to win. Either way they still have Emrakul which kind of sucks but what can you do? Emrakul is easier to deal with anyways, any deck with Knight can drop him off Show/Tell and get Karakas and run Grace and probably have a huge advantage in the matchup. Of course a lot of people now know people are going to be sideboarding against Hive so they won't run it. For better or worse I'm not even considering it in my SB because I think it will be heavily hated at GenCon and I'm relying on the overreactions of players at the lower tables to hate it heavily and keep it out of the top tables. Then I just have to hope to dodge it the first couple rounds.

Running bad cards like Angel's Grace or Sundial of the Infinite might work against Hive Mind, but it's awful against the rest of the format. I think the best way to fight Hive Mind--if your meta is infested with it--is to run decks that contain cards that naturally answer it. Counterspells are a start, but Hive Mind easily powers through conventional counterspells. REB/Pyroblast, pin point discard, Stifle, Daze, and counterspells on sticks (Cursecatcher/Spellstutter Sprite) are cards Hive Mind hates to see. The more of these cards you can stick into a viable dick, the better your chance against Hive Mind.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Running bad cards like Angel's Grace or Sundial of the Infinite might work against Hive Mind, but it's awful against the rest of the format. I think the best way to fight Hive Mind--if your meta is infested with it--is to run decks that contain cards that naturally answer it. Counterspells are a start, but Hive Mind easily powers through conventional counterspells. REB/Pyroblast, pin point discard, Stifle, Daze, and counterspells on sticks (Cursecatcher/Spellstutter Sprite) are cards Hive Mind hates to see. The more of these cards you can stick into a viable dick, the better your chance against Hive Mind.

Yeah I agree of course. I think the meta will swing back towards Merfolk with the recent developments. Any deck strong vs. Hive Mind and NO-UGx would have been a strong choice at the last SCG and probably will be at the next event as well.

[lordofthepit]

Yeah I agree of course. I think the meta will swing back towards Merfolk with the recent developments. Any deck strong vs. Hive Mind and NO-UGx would have been a strong choice at the last SCG and probably will be at the next event as well.

Unfortunately for Merfolk, it's a bit weak against NO RUG. Decks which are solid-to-strong against both include:
- Storm combo: Faster than Hive Mind, plenty of discard, and LEDs can help pay for multiple pacts. NO-UGx doesn't run a lot of counters, but it has a decent clock, and the combination of Misstep, Force, and Vendilion Clique makes the matchup about 50-50.
- Team America: Nightmare combination of cards for Hive Mind, strong tempo game can prevent Natural Order from getting to 4 mana (but latter is also close to 50-50).
- U/R Stifle Control: Combination of Stifle, Daze, and REB/Pyroblast is great against Hive Mind. Has excellent resource denial package and more countermagic than NO-UGx (along with Fire/Ice to 2-for-1 the smaller sacrifice outlets).

[lordofthepit]

Yeah I agree of course. I think the meta will swing back towards Merfolk with the recent developments. Any deck strong vs. Hive Mind and NO-UGx would have been a strong choice at the last SCG and probably will be at the next event as well.

Unfortunately for Merfolk, it's a bit weak against NO RUG. Decks which are solid-to-strong against both include:
- Storm combo: Faster than Hive Mind, plenty of discard, and LEDs can help pay for multiple pacts. NO-UGx doesn't run a lot of counters, but it has a decent clock, and the combination of Misstep, Force, and Vendilion Clique makes the matchup about 50-50.
- Team America: Nightmare combination of cards for Hive Mind, strong tempo game can prevent Natural Order from getting to 4 mana (but latter is also close to 50-50).
- U/R Stifle Control: Combination of Stifle, Daze, and REB/Pyroblast is great against Hive Mind. Has excellent resource denial package and more countermagic than NO-UGx (along with Fire/Ice to 2-for-1 the smaller sacrifice outlets).