G/B Natural Order w/ Veggies (NOVV)

[Hanni]

Whatever happened to the Wonder/Island plan? It seems like a sure-fire way to seal up the game in one turn once you have the creatures out. It also avoids the whole "dead to Moat" issue.

Trust me ruckus, I played with the blue version alot. Several months ago I was developing it, but ultimately gave up because of the inconsistency issues. When I picked the deck back up about a week ago, it started off as U/G/b.

The Island/Wonder plan is great, but I don't feel that the deck needs it anymore. Progenitus has evasion and so does Shriekmaw, who also clears the way of blockers.

I have yet to run into Moat. If I was seeing Moat with more consistency, I could maindeck a Viridian Zealot (probably in place of 1 Shriekmaw). Regardless, the deck has tons of answers to Moat postboard.

I also noticed you run sideboard Elvish Lyrist/Scrapper. Have you considered Viridian Zealot to give you the flexibility for either, and also not have to wait a turn to use it?

I just considered this today, after I saw unicoerner's list. I think this is a great idea, and I have cut Lyrist and Scrapper for a Zealot. I'll add another Scavenging Ooze with the extra space, I think.

EDIT: My updated sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot


I'll edit the OP decklist to reflect these changes.

[honz]

List first, justification later:

19-20 lands
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Heirarch
1 Quirion Ranger

4 Buried Alive
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Reanimate/Animate Dead
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskilion
1 Phyrexion Devourer

4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy

3-4 Vengevine
4 Tarmogoyf

3-4 Flex slots (currently trying shreikmaw / genesis; basking rootwalla, eternal witness, mental misstep, skinshifter, phyrexian metamorph, hymn/4th therapy, bloodghasts, 4th vengevine are other options)

Sideboard:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
# Dark confidant
# Scavenging Ooze
# Faerie Macabre
# Krosan Grip
# hymn to tourach / duress
# pernicious deed


Now i know that you dislike the ooze combo, however i see these two decks to be very much the same archetype, and should be considered as such.

Without the ooze combo, fauna shaman is probably sub-par, however (with the ooze combo) if he manages to stick on the board for 3 turns (most the time), you win the game. He also finds random useful things (macabre and shriekmaw have been great for me), and venges, and is a discard outlet. Also if someone taps out, you can eot grab your venges and catch him with his pants down for 12 damage. One of the strongest cards in the deck.

With the sideboard, you can essentially play 4 different variations on the deck: ooze/vengvine, NatOrder/vengevine, ooze/NatOrder, B/G Rock (deed, confidant, venges, reanimates), mainly depending on what your playing against and how it sideboards against you.

I really stress playing krosan grips over any other artifact/enchant hate, as hivemind decks are going to be everywhere with their recent success.

[Hanni]

Now i know that you dislike the ooze combo, however i see these two decks to be very much the same archetype, and should be considered as such.

It's not that I dislike the Ooze combo, it's just the fact that the decklist I posted was going in a different direction. The deck I built was built around Vengevine, not Ooze. I like the Ooze combo; I don't like the Ooze combo in this deck.

[Hanni]

After more playtesting, I've made some more sideboard changes.

Scavenging Ooze is overkill. I already have a fantastic Dredge matchup. Evoking Shriekmaw blows up Bridges, Wasteland can screw them over, and Vengevines/Progenitus can race them. Postboard, the Deeds are absolutely brutal.

Against Aggro Loam, I'm thinking I shouldn't really need to worry about dealing with their graveyard. They tend to have trouble dealing with a resolved Progenitus, and my discard does a great job of clearing away Burning Wish/Perish. Even recurring Vengevines are pretty hard for them to deal with, and Genesis -> Shriekmaw/Viridian Zealot is a beating too. I don't think I need the Scavenging Ooze's here.

I've had a few game losses to Reanimator so far, but that was with earlier versions of the deck. I think my matchup against Reanimator should be signicantly better now, especially postboard with more discard. I'm sure the Scavenging Ooze's would be awesome against them, but I'm not sure I really want to sideboard a card that's only really needed for 1 matchup.

I've been absolutely loving the Viridian Zealot though. It's tutorable recurrable artifact/enchantment removal (since it sac's itself), it triggers Vengevines, and it's a body for Natural Order. I couldn't ask for much more. I definitely want more than 1 in the sideboard.

Against Control decks bringing in graveyard hate, I'm thinking a 1-of Gigapede could be pretty good. Gives me something to grab with Buried Alive if the Veggies/Genesis get dealt with, and the Shroud is pretty good too. It also gives me an outlet for sacrificing Progenitus, although I usually board out my NO/Pro package vs Control...

Maybe I should maindeck 1 Gigapede? Hmm... maybe.

Anyway, the new sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

I will edit the OP with the new sideboard.

[Monochrome]

Really digging the work you've put into this so far Hanni. I had oringinally tried a straight U/G Tempo madness deck right after Survival was banned, to some success. Now that the format has slowed down due to Mental Misstep, and especially after I saw Ken's deck have the success it did, I think Veggies are due to make some kind of comeback (if not carve out their own Niche). I'm looking to take some of your ideas and test them myself too, see how it handles.

I definitely like the extra Zealots you have sideboard, as my meta sees a lot of permanent based control (E Tutor control w/ Moat/Bridge, Enchanctress). Shriekmaw's are also pretty sick against Emrakul (see a few of those too).

[Hanni]

Yea, I'm kinda in the air if I want the 4th Zealot in the sideboard, because I absolutely love the synergy he has with the rest of the deck.

If you're looking to take some ideas from the deck, I'd recommend playtesting with the deck as-is first before making any changes. I've played around 100 games or so with it already, and the list is pretty rock solid atm.

[unicoerner]

Perhaps its my list, but instead of 4 Tarmos i play 4 Fauna Shaman and you play 3 more Shriemaw where i play a toolox and 4 Hymny instead of Thoughtseize.
Hymn might be a good addition.
The problem i have, is that it's somehow hard for me to trigger the veggies after Burying them.

My games went like Land Bird - Destroy sth or counter Bird - 2nd play discard or Shaman - counter or removal - Turn 3 Burying, but now i am pretty much out of hand cards and if there stuck some land or more discard around, perhaps NO i have a problem.
Shriekmaw just taking care of black creatures is a problem, too.

Î lost to Deadguy, even after resolving Prog.. ok he had runner runner removal.
Lost to UR control, resolved first round Grim and had everything else.
Burn killed me, too. Did mull to 5 g2.

Perhaps i am not able to play this deck properly to this point, but i lacked power. Or it was bad luck.

[brianw712]

Hanni, what do you feel about the Merfolk matchup? I've been testing the OP list against Merfolk, and it really feels like an uphill battle. It seems like I can never resolve Buried Alive or Natural Order past Cursecatcher/Daze/Wasteland/Misstep on Noble/Birds, and if I can, it's usually because they have a threat-heavy draw, meaning the three Vengevines or the Progenitus are outmatched by the 4 5/5s on the other side of the table. And Goyfs aren't too much of a problem for them due to Coralhelm and Reejery.

[Hanni]

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Merfolk

This matchup is a little more difficult for this deck than a more traditional Rock deck like Junk, because it has a lighter removal density. Earlier versions of this deck had an unfavorable matchup due to no removal, no Tarmogoyf or Wasteland, a heavier reliance on Buried Alive and Natural Order, and no relevant sideboard options. The current version has drastically improved its Merfolk matchup.

Game 1 is a coin flip. If they get a nuts draw, the game becomes an uphill battle. Tempo is the key word in game 1. Who goes first is a big deal. In addition to who wins the die roll, early accelerants via mana dorks for this deck and Vial for theirs, also matters.

If they are capable of stopping an early mana dork via Mental Misstep/Daze, stick a Vial or Cursecatcher turn 1, and are able to drop multiple lords into play early, the game will get out of hand and result in a loss.

Shriekmaw is fantastic in this matchup, since it dodges Cursecatcher and deals with their lords. Tarmogoyf is also fantastic once he grows large enough, which should be easy between the sorceries in this deck, the instants in theirs, and both decks packing a bunch of creatures. Even at 3/4, a lone Goyf can hold the ground early. Reducing damage early is important. Wasteland is also really good in this matchup because it answers Mutavault.

The discard package of this deck is helps a lot too, removing gas (creatures), and/or clearing the way to drop a bomb (Buried Alive/Natural Order). Both Buried Alive and Natural Order can turn the game around if resolved in a relevant time frame. Whether to grab a Genesis/Shriekmaw/Tarmogoyf or triple Vengevine pile with Buried Alive is dependent on the situation.

If Merfolk cannot sufficiently race early, chances are good that the game will result in a win. By midgame, their tempo countermagic like Daze, Cursecatcher, and Mental Misstep become a lot less effective/relevant, and resolving Buried Alive/Natural Order becomes a lot easier.

Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better, regardless of what sort of hate they bring in. Pernicious Deed is an absolute lifesaver, and the mana dorks can help accelerate it out when necessary. Deed is gold in this matchup, dealing with Vial’s, manlands, every single creature on the board, Umezawa’s Jitte if they bring it in, and any resolved artifact graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus. As an enchantment, it dodges Cursecatcher; at 3cc, it dodges Misstep; playing around Daze results in them having only 4 hard counters to deal with it, which happens to Hymn them in the process.

I bring out the NO/Pro plan vs Merfolk, to fit in the Deed’s. NO/Pro is just too risky; a 2GG sorcery that also costs a creature is not worth the reward.

Sideboard Plan
-4 Natural Order
-1 Progenitus
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Viridian Zealot*

*I’m still up in the air about the final card to bring in postboard, since there are several useful alternatives. Cabal Therapy is nice, since it can rip additional gas and clear the way for Deed/Buried Alive, and Maelstrom Pulse is nice since it is additional removal.

Right now I’ve been bringing in Viridian Zealot. He is an additional body that can block/trade with one of their guys, can randomly destroy Vial/Jitte/Relic, is recurrable via Genesis, and can trigger Vengevines.

Matchup Percentages

I haven’t had quite enough playesting to make any sort of realistic conclusion here.

I’ve only played two 2/3 gamesets against Merfolk with the current list so far. Of those,

I’ve won:
One game 1
One game 2
One game 3

I’ve Lost:
One game 1
One game 2

And I’ve received one “Player Lost” going into game 3. Both versions were mono blue.

[Hanni]

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Merfolk

This matchup is a little more difficult for this deck than a more traditional Rock deck like Junk, because it has a lighter removal density. Earlier versions of this deck had an unfavorable matchup due to no removal, no Tarmogoyf or Wasteland, a heavier reliance on Buried Alive and Natural Order, and no relevant sideboard options. The current version has drastically improved its Merfolk matchup.

Game 1 is a coin flip. If they get a nuts draw, the game becomes an uphill battle. Tempo is the key word in game 1. Who goes first is a big deal. In addition to who wins the die roll, early accelerants via mana dorks for this deck and Vial for theirs, also matters.

If they are capable of stopping an early mana dork via Mental Misstep/Daze, stick a Vial or Cursecatcher turn 1, and are able to drop multiple lords into play early, the game will get out of hand and result in a loss.

Shriekmaw is fantastic in this matchup, since it dodges Cursecatcher and deals with their lords. Tarmogoyf is also fantastic once he grows large enough, which should be easy between the sorceries in this deck, the instants in theirs, and both decks packing a bunch of creatures. Even at 3/4, a lone Goyf can hold the ground early. Reducing damage early is important. Wasteland is also really good in this matchup because it answers Mutavault.

The discard package of this deck is helps a lot too, removing gas (creatures), and/or clearing the way to drop a bomb (Buried Alive/Natural Order). Both Buried Alive and Natural Order can turn the game around if resolved in a relevant time frame. Whether to grab a Genesis/Shriekmaw/Tarmogoyf or triple Vengevine pile with Buried Alive is dependent on the situation.

If Merfolk cannot sufficiently race early, chances are good that the game will result in a win. By midgame, their tempo countermagic like Daze, Cursecatcher, and Mental Misstep become a lot less effective/relevant, and resolving Buried Alive/Natural Order becomes a lot easier.

Sideboard Plan

-4 Natural Order
-1 Progenitus
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Viridian Zealot*

*I’m still up in the air about the final card to bring in postboard, since there are several useful alternatives. Cabal Therapy is nice, since it can rip additional gas and clear the way for Deed/Buried Alive, and Maelstrom Pulse is nice since it is additional removal.

Right now I’ve been bringing in Viridian Zealot. He is an additional body that can block/trade with one of their guys, can randomly destroy Vial/Jitte/Relic, is recurrable via Genesis, and can trigger Vengevines.

Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better, regardless of what sort of hate they bring in. Pernicious Deed is an absolute lifesaver, and the mana dorks can help accelerate it out when necessary. Deed is gold in this matchup, dealing with Vial’s, manlands, every single creature on the board, Umezawa’s Jitte if they bring it in, and any resolved artifact graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus. As an enchantment, it dodges Cursecatcher; at 3cc, it dodges Misstep; playing around Daze results in them having only 4 hard counters to deal with it, which happens to Hymn them in the process.

I bring out the NO/Pro plan vs Merfolk, because Pernicious Deed is much better. A 2GG sorcery that requires sacrificing a creature as part of the cost, is just too risky.

Matchup Percentages

I haven’t had quite enough playesting to make any sort of realistic conclusion here.

I’ve only played two 2/3 gamesets against Merfolk with the current list so far. Of those,

I’ve won:
One game 1
One game 2
One game 3

I’ve Lost:
One game 1
One game 2

And I’ve received one “Player Lost” going into game 3.

Both versions were mono blue.