U/B/g The Mind Harvester

[catmint]

I tested your first build and I had similar conclusions. I like your update and looking forward to test it.
MM has to come in, but not vs. discard.
I think between all the counterspells, deed, thoughtseize and cabal pit it is not necessary to run 7 removal spells.

I am going to test this MD with:
- 1 Underground Sea, -1 Misty Rainforest, -2 removal, -1deed, 1 counterspell
+ 1 Wasteland, +4 Mental Misstep, +1 Sylvan Library

...and replace the duress with thoughtseize...

don't know if the mana base will do, but beeing able to fetch basics helps a lot...

[Hanni]

So after alot of playtesting with the new configuration, I'm really happy with it. The deck has been absolutely amazing, to say the least. A few things:

1) Cabal Pit is fantastic. It's suprising just how many creatures with 2 toughness or less are seeing play these days.

Here's a small list of creatures I've run into so far in testing:

Dark Confidant
Stoneforge Mystic
Grim Lavamancer
Mother of Runes
Vendilion Clique
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Goblin Guide
Scryb Ranger
Qasali Pridemage
Spellstutter Sprite

You'll notice I didn't even include any Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity creatures, or anything like that, which are also fantastic targets for Cabal Pit. It even does a good job against attacking manlands. Then there's also fringe creatures like Putrid Imp, Xantid Swarm, so on and so forth. At this point, I'd say the Cabal Pit is a mandatory land for this deck until the format changes.

2) 4 Deed + 4 Jace is just really strong. There have been many so many postboard games now where my opponents open with a turn 0 Leyline or have some form of graveyard hate, and I just sweep the board with Deed, drop a Jace, and fateseal ftw.

3) The 3 discard spells are still very much open for debate, as I consider these my flex spots. So far, I've been happy with the discard, but cases can easily be made for Mental Misstep or Spell Snare in their place. For now, I've swapped to a 2/1 split of Thoughtseize/Duress since the lifeloss from only 2 Thoughtseize's has not been a big deal, and the ability to hit creatures is really good.

Overall, I think this deck is incredibly powerful. This deck takes all of the best things about UBg Landstill, and improves alot of the bad things. The most important aspect of any Legacy control deck is a strong manabase, and this deck definitely has a strong manabase; tons of color sources, 4 basics, and 4/1 Intuition/Loam. Also, Standstill is a conditional draw engine, whereas Intuition/Loam is not, and while it may be slower, it is much stronger.

I'll edit the OP decklist to include my most recent list.

[The Treefolk Master]

Have you playstested only in MWS or versus known opponents too?

It would be really awesome if you could film some of you're matches, load them to youtube and paste them here, as therefore we could see the deck on action (if you're already playing it online, it doesn't take much extra time to film & upload).

I really think Misstep > Discard from what I've been able to test, but I could be wrong.

You could run 1 Shriekmaw & 1 Stronghold SB vs. midrange decks.

[Hanni]

Have you playstested only in MWS or versus known opponents too?

Purely MWS based testing. I don't have any known opponent's that I can playtest against. I've logged alot of games though, so I have had the chance to play against some good opponent's. I have played against some janky decks, but I've seen quite a few Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 decks too.

If you'd be interesting in playtesting with me Treefolk, send me a PM.

It would be really awesome if you could film some of you're matches, load them to youtube and paste them here, as therefore we could see the deck on action (if you're already playing it online, it doesn't take much extra time to film & upload).

I don't have any programs on my computer that film things, and I've never uploaded any videos to Youtube before, so that would be a new experience for me. Maybe I'll experiment with that later. Could you send me a PM explaining the process, where to download the program, etc?

I really think Misstep > Discard from what I've been able to test, but I could be wrong.

As I've said, these are my flex spots. There are some matchups where Mental Misstep would be alot better than the discard, and there are other matchups where the discard is better.

You could run 1 Shriekmaw & 1 Stronghold SB vs. midrange decks.

What midrange decks would you suggest this for? I only ask this because, for the most part, I've been destroying midrange decks.

My toughest matchups so far have been Burn and Sligh.

[The Treefolk Master]

Sadly, I don't have much time to playtest online, most of my testing comes from playing with my friends/local stores. Also, my internet connection sucks, and collapses every 5 minutes.

I've never recorded myself, but I think I know how to do it, I'll send you a PM.

Ignore what I said about Shriekmaw, I forgot it should be a good match up.

Concerning your bad matchups, you could try a few Kitchen Finks to buy you time, at least untill you can get Zuran Orb-Loam going, which should be GG.

Have you considered dropping 1 Deed (or something else) for 1 Explosives and finding room for 1 Ruins MD. The Intuition pile Loam-EE-Ruins is really tempting. I know it is slow, but you should be able to buy some time with spot removal, and then steal the game with the Lock.

Isn't Cabal Pit slow?

[Hanni]

Concerning your bad matchups, you could try a few Kitchen Finks to buy you time, at least untill you can get Zuran Orb-Loam going, which should be GG.

Kitchen Finks doesn't sound bad, but I'm kinda thinking more Zuran Orb's would be better. Zuran Orb is gg against those decks.

Have you considered dropping 1 Deed (or something else) for 1 Explosives and finding room for 1 Ruins MD. The Intuition pile Loam-EE-Ruins is really tempting. I know it is slow, but you should be able to buy some time with spot removal, and then steal the game with the Lock.

It's possible, but I'm not sure if it would be necessary. Like you said, it's slow. I do bring it for some postboard games, though. I would definitely not cut any Deeds to fit them. My flex spots are the additional discard, so if I were to try and fit it, I'd cut from those.

Isn't Cabal Pit slow?

Definitely not. EOT Intuition for Loam/Pit/X. Untap, cast Loam, play Pit, kill dude. It stunts my manabase development, so I suppose it could be classified as slow in that way. As far as being slow at killing a creature, it's not. I'd likely be Loam'ing anyway, but even if you count the cost of Loam, that's still 1GB + land drop, which is infinitely faster than 5GU + X (X = Whatever I set EE to).

Recurring EE is alot stronger than Cabal Pit, but it is alot slower.

With Ruins/EE, I have to skip a dredge to get EE back, too (although not always relevant).

[Iron Buddha]

Are 4 Intuition really necessary? The first is obviously very strong, but the second? the third?
Intuitively I would change -1 Intuition, +1 SDT.

[routlaw]

Are 4 Intuition really necessary? The first is obviously very strong, but the second? the third?
Intuitively I would change -1 Intuition, +1 SDT.

Keep in mind that Intuition can also get piles like FOW,FOW,FOW with some ridiculous combo kill on the stack or Deed,Deed,Deed at EOT. Triplet Intutions are powerful tutors when you need one card from your deck and you need it right then. You'll still want another Intuiton later for setting up the win. Four seems fine.

Cabal Pit is awesome. When you are loaming it back late game, just having it on the board wrecks a lot of creatures your opponent could play. Using it twice in a turn, while expensive, is not out of the realm of possibility for slightly bigger creatures late-game and lets Jace keep fatesealing away.

[catmint]

don't you feel that you ca run -1 deed, -1 couterspell, -2 removal for 4 MM?
I feel if you play it like this includig 3 thoughtseize it would provide a much better early game and the deck runs so much removal anyway....

what do you think?

[Hanni]

Are 4 Intuition really necessary? The first is obviously very strong, but the second? the third?
Intuitively I would change -1 Intuition, +1 SDT

Intuition is arguably more powerful than Jace TMS in this deck, at least preboard (before the opponent brings in a few handfuls of graveyard hate). I would sooner cut a Jace TMS before I would cut an Intuition.*

*I'm not advocating for cutting any Jace TMS, I'm just making a point.

First of all, you absolutely want to see one every game. Running 4 increases the chance of seeing one.

Secondly, there is no shortage of the amount of things that Intuition can grab. Aside from the occasional 3x piles (like triple FoW), here’s what you can grab with Intuition:

Maindeck
Life from the Loam
Cabal Pit
Wasteland
Lonely Sandbar
Lonely Sandbar
Raven's Crime
Worm Harvest
(Fetchland)

Postboard
Academy Ruins
Zuran Orb
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Nihil Spellbomb
Bojuka Bog

Basically, unless you’ve drawn all 4 Intuition’s, you’re not going to be at a loss for targets. How often will your opponent discard your Intuition? How often does the opponent counter your Intuition?

Excess Intuitions, if they do become excess, are pretty easy to get rid of. Brainstorm and Jace TMS do a good job… and a lot of times you will be forced to pitch an early Intuition to a Force.

As far as Sensei’s Top’s go, I had considered them. If I were to make room for them, they would come out of the flex spots. I still need more testing to determine if I want some or not. At this point, I’ve been satisfied with my current draw engine, and the deck has been fairly mana hungry early… but I do love me some Top’s.

don’t you feel that you ca run -1 deed, -1 counterspell, -2 removal for 4 MM?
I feel if you play it like this including 3 thoughtseize it would provide a much better early game and the deck runs so much removal anyway….

what do you think?

If I could run 5 Deeds, I would.

I won’t say that the 4th Counterspell is mandatory, but I (personally) would not lower my Counterspell count. The deck can easily hold UU open, and it answers nearly everything. Once the deck drops a Jace, there really is no replacement for displacement (Counterspell).

I’m happy with my removal package right now. The format is very aggro-centric. Even combo decks these days are using creatures to win (at least as alternate wins). The large removal package prevents early damage, which helps transition this deck to the midgame, where the raw power of this deck is able to take over.

The deck already runs 4 Force, 4 Counterspell, and 1 Crime as its base disruption package. The deck has 3 flex spots to fit additional disruption. I do not think the deck needs more than 12 disruption spells, at least not maindeck, and Crime is tutorable.

However, this is how I’ve built the deck to fit my needs, suit my play style, etc. If you happen to think the deck would work better with less removal and more disruption, I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong. Play test that configuration vs the current one, and if it works better for you, then go with it.

[Nizmox]

I'm really keen to try out this list. It's something I have been wanting to try ever since I first picked up UBG landstill. Loam is a card that wants to be abused and UBG landstill really does not abuse it to the fullest.

I have a few questions on card inclusions though...
* I'm not sure about cutting MM/snare for discard, it's something I'll have to try for myself. When playing UBG landstill I found myself using mental misstep and spell snare to stall my opponent till I could deed and or pop ancestral visions. Discard doesn't seem like it would be as good, although in this case you're stalling until you get the loam engine going.
* Is it a good idea to cut factories? You lose the synergy with Standstill but they are still great chump blockers, protect Jace and recur with Loam.
* I'm adverse to running more than 4 straight removal spells. Cards like Putrefy and Pulse are ok because they can target non-creatures, but it seems like alot of straight creature removal.
* Is Maze of Ith worth including? It forces opponents to overcommit into Deed and recurs with Loam. Even as a 1-of it might be good? CAB Jace runs Maze and seems to do well.
EDIT: * Also Tabernacle seems like it would be good if you can afford it?

I'm currently missing intuitions so once they arrive I'll post my thoughts.

[ThomasDowd]

I agree that 7.5 removal spells+ 4 deed may be a bit much, but that's just from looking at the list, i may try to get some games in soon before the weekend.

have you ever found yourself wanting another loam? but with intuition and the card draw i think 2 is fine.

also have you missed the mox diamond's at all?

deed besides the point (like you can get reallllly janky and play a singleton ruins with loam, just saying) I just think that the acceleration is probably worth it.

but i like it, crime with an active loam seems like it can put alot of games away.

[catmint]

Besides of the tier decks, there is a lot of budget burn/affinity in my local meta.
Is the academy ruins tutor package with EE, Zuran Orb, (Null Rod?) fast enough from your experience?

we intuition earliest turn 3 for loam, ruins and zuran orb so we can gain life on turn 5 unless we have a brainstorm. Sounds like we only need to disrupt 1-2 times to stabalize in time.

Do you think a turn 5 Null Rod is good versus affinity? Probably too late, because we have to deal with the creatures anyway... It would also helps vs. storm though...what do you think?

What is your experience versus dredge? Turn 4 bojuka bog is only good enough if we have a solid counter package and a deed for the tokens right? .. and they can still recover. What do you think about Tormods Crypt as recurring option for the Academy ruins package? 1 turn slower but recurring...?!

Versus dredge i thik the 4 MM are also very helpful....

What do you think about replacing 1 removal with Maze of Ith?

[Hanni]

* I'm not sure about cutting MM/snare for discard, it's something I'll have to try for myself. When playing UBG landstill I found myself using mental misstep and spell snare to stall my opponent till I could deed and or pop ancestral visions. Discard doesn't seem like it would be as good, although in this case you're stalling until you get the loam engine going.

As I've already said, the discard can easily be replaced by MM or Snare. I've chosen to playtest with discard for now because I like what it does for the deck.

* Is it a good idea to cut factories? You lose the synergy with Standstill but they are still great chump blockers, protect Jace and recur with Loam.

Mishra's Factories are bad creatures that tap for colorless and die to both Wasteland and creature removal. Landstill runs them to support their draw engine. Even with Loam, why would I recur a 2/2 when I can recur a horde of 1/1 tokens instead? Not running Factory makes my manabase a lot more stable. The only manland I would consider for this deck would be Nantuko Monastery, but I'm not in white. Although between Monastery, Nomad Stadium, and StP... there are some compelling reasons to splash for white.

* I'm adverse to running more than 4 straight removal spells. Cards like Putrefy and Pulse are ok because they can target non-creatures, but it seems like alot of straight creature removal.

I'm not sure what the issue is with running 7 spot removal spells. If you look at the UBg Landstill thread, those lists also run 10-12 removal spells. This is not an aggro/control deck; I don't have Goyf or Batterskull to hold down the fort. With Jace being one of my two win conditions, keeping the board clear is pretty important. I can see the benefits to running Putrey or Pulse in place of a couple of spot removal spells, but they are a bit costly - regardless, that still keeps me at 10-12 removal spells.

After playtesting with the deck, you'll come to appreciate the 7 effecient spot removal spells. If not, go ahead and cut some.

* Is Maze of Ith worth including? It forces opponents to overcommit into Deed and recurs with Loam. Even as a 1-of it might be good? CAB Jace runs Maze and seems to do well.

Maze of Ith isn't bad, and is worth consideration. Not tapping for mana is an issue, though.

EDIT: * Also Tabernacle seems like it would be good if you can afford it?

Tabernacle is awful in here. I do not attack my opponents manabase to get any sort of value out of it, and one of my two win conditions makes a swarm of 1/1 tokens.

have you ever found yourself wanting another loam? but with intuition and the card draw i think 2 is fine.

The only time I ever want a second Loam is postboard vs graveyard hate, but even then, playing around hate with Lonely Sandbar removes the need for a 2nd one. In the case of Leyline of the Void or Extirpate/Surgical Extraction, a 2nd Loam wouldn't matter anyway.

also have you missed the mox diamond's at all?

I do miss the Mox Diamonds, but the deck has been more stable and consistent without them. FoW + Diamond was huge card disadvantage. In an aggro/control shell it might not matter, but too much -CA in a control deck is bad. If I ran 4 Life from the Loam's in addition to the 4 Intuition's, going back to 4 Diamond's would likely be really good... but the deck would lose way too many control elements if I did that.

Besides of the tier decks, there is a lot of budget burn/affinity in my local meta.
Is the academy ruins tutor package with EE, Zuran Orb, (Null Rod?) fast enough from your experience?

Deed rapes Affinity, and this deck has plenty of spot removal (even with the two GFTO) to get to Deed mana.

Vs Burn, the matchup is tough. Cut the MD discard for MD Mental Misstep, and SB more lifegain effects. If you can buy enough time with Misstep (hardcast), Pierce, Counterspell, and FoW, you should have enough time to get an Orb lock online. If Burn is a big player in your meta, consider running more Zuran Orb. I'm actually considering fitting more in my board, to be honest.

What is your experience versus dredge? Turn 4 bojuka bog is only good enough if we have a solid counter package and a deed for the tokens right? .. and they can still recover. What do you think about Tormods Crypt as recurring option for the Academy ruins package? 1 turn slower but recurring...?!

Dredge is difficult preboard. MD Mental Missteps are huge here. If you can get a Deed on the board, it can be blown for 0 to kill off Zombie tokens. Spamming 1/1 tokens is really good, if you live long enough to get to the midgame. Postboard, Bojuka Bog is a nice immediate answer, but recurring Nihil is a lock. If you don't have the time to get the Nihil lock going, go for a Loam/Bog/Wasteland pile. Wasteland'ing the Bog and replaying it isn't nearly as effecient as recurring Nihil, but it does get the job done.

[thefreakaccident]

Have you considered exploration? Turn 2 jace seems pretty strong. It also lets you truly power with loam instead of using it for a crappy draw engine.

[Hanni]

I had an idea pop into my head while I was half asleep the other day. I have no idea why or how. Anyway, I remember seeing a few guys in the Landstill thread suggesting Tombstalker. Since I do have 3 flex spots right now, and since I only have two win conditions right now, Tombstalker has merit. It doesn't get hit by my Deeds, and a black 5/5 flier can dodge alot of commonly played removal. As a body, it's great on defense (and protecting a Jace TMS), and it's a 4 turn clock on its own.

Again, this is just a thought. It needs playtested before I actually determine anything. However, the removal package would need to change some. I'll figure out a better removal package after I do some playtesting.

For testing purposes, I will be trying these changes:


-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Duress
-2 Innocent Blood
-1 Ghastly Demise
+2 Tombstalker
+1 Darkblast
+2 Dismember
+1 Diabolic Edict

Have you considered exploration? Turn 2 jace seems pretty strong. It also lets you truly power with loam instead of using it for a crappy draw engine.

It's in a similar boat with Mox Diamond. The Mox offers better accel early, while the Exploration offers better accel mid-late. I think the accel early is more valuable, but they both still bite the dust to Deed, and require an active Loam to make up for the card disadvantage. Either way, it's not something I'll rule out until I test with it, since it could be alot better than my initial impressions.

As far as using Loam for a crappy draw engine... if you think that Loam is a crappy draw engine, you should probably play a few games with the deck first. This deck is built around abusing Loam. Intuition/Loam is the most powerful draw engine I've ever played with.

EDIT: I keep tinkering with the removal suite. I'm rocking this atm:

1 Cabal Pit
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed

I'm sure it's going to keep changing till I find a package I like.

[Mr. Safety]

I am having a good time in my decks with Dismember and Maelstrom Pulse as well. Nice call there...

Just curious how you feel about Standstill or Ancestral Visions...I feel that both work really well (Visions more so) considering 4 P-Deeds in the maindeck. Standstill seems really strong if you've established board control and have a Jace rockin' (although is it win more?) I don't think I saw them in the lists, and I know you have the Loam Engine to work with Lonely Sandbar and you have Brainstorm for filtering.

My last comment is this: your deck seems to really be playing well. I suggest leaving it alone for a while and just getting a better feel for it (although from your history, you've been tinkering with Blue/Rock decks for a long time...) Good luck! I just love the concept for this deck, it's just awesome.

[Infinitium]

This is extremely similar to a deck I used to run up until JTM was printed, except that it also ran Spellweaver Helix to set up infinite turns with Temporal Manipuation and 2x Life from the Loam. The point was that the entire combo was tutorable using 2 Intuitions (where the first one would get Academy Ruins, a Loam and EE/Crime to buy time to cast the second), and that the only truly dead card was Helix itself (which incidentally only needed a single Intuition for Loam/Loam/Warp to do its thing). Once locked out the opponent proceeded to get eaten by Worm Harvest/Gigapede.

This enabled the deck to simply win come turn 6-7, as opposed to trying to protect a win condition and possibly letting the opponentcome back into the game. I eventually gave up on the deck since it lacked good graveyard independent win conditions, but Jace might have changed that.

[The Treefolk Master]

If anyone is interested, this is the list I'm testing to lots of success:


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Cabal Pit
1 Wasteland
1 Worm Harvest
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Raven's Crime
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Go for the Throat
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Mental Misstep

SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Gigapede
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Academy Ruins

I'm considering removing 1 Innocent Blood for 1 Targeted Removal at Instant Speed, maybe dismember (a recurring issue with the list is that once I have used one of my targetted removals, I can't intuition for 3 more if I must answer something, as there are only 2 Go for the Throats and 1 Ghastly Demise in the deck).

Raven's Crime has been absurdly power, many times I intuition for loam-crime-harvest, and totally slaughter their hand. As soon as the deck has a window (when it is not under pressure) to cast Intuition, it will take over if there is no significant opposition.

Mental Misstep has tested better than the discard spells.

[Hanni]

Looks like a pretty good list. I playtested a few games with Mental Misstep, and they were hit and miss. When they were good, they were really good. When they weren't, they were dead spells that I wished were something else. Being blue for FoW is a big plus, though. Overall, I like it.

How has Gigapede been in testing? I originally had 1 in my board, but I never brought it in. I cut it for the 2nd Zuran Orb.

This enabled the deck to simply win come turn 6-7, as opposed to trying to protect a win condition and possibly letting the opponentcome back into the game. I eventually gave up on the deck since it lacked good graveyard independent win conditions, but Jace might have changed that.

Control decks and combo decks are fundamentally different. Control decks don't try to protect a win condition, they control the board. Countermagic, discard, removal, etc keeps the table clear, and card advantage puts the control player ahead. Once the coast is clear, a win condition comes down to seal the game up. In old Control decks, the actual win condition was largely irrelevant, so long as it could seal the game up (think Serra Angel, Morphling, etc). These days, win conditions are multi-purpose. Take Worm Harvest for example. Yes, a swarm of 1/1 tokens is definitely a way to win, but it also really good at holding the ground against opposing aggro. The win conditions in this deck protect themselves, for the most part.