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Thread: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

  1. #41
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    While I like what you've done with the deck, I assume/hope that some of the inspiration for it stemmed from this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post563318

    I have been happy with Academy Ruins and a single EE in the main. Right now, however, I am looking into the viability of running Ancient Tombs (and perhaps working in the Thopter Sword combo... maybe somehow) in order to push out Intuition/Jace/Worm Harvest even quicker.

    edit: Figured I would include a deck list I've been tweaking. I've taken a few of your suggestions as well. Keep up the great work!


    CORE cards: 12
    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Pernicious Deed
    4 Brainstorm

    COUNTER suite: 11
    4 Mental Misstep
    3 Counterspell
    4 Force of Will

    REMOVAL suite: 5
    2 Dismember
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Darkblast
    2 Maelstrom Pulse

    NUMMY suite: 8
    4 Intuition
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Worm Harvest
    1 Raven's Crime
    1 Engineered Explosives

    LANDS:24
    2 Island
    1 Forest
    2 Lonely Sandbar
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Ancient Tomb
    1 Academy Ruins
    Last edited by metamet; 08-25-2011 at 02:49 PM.

  2. #42

    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I have been playing a similar deck to quite some succes as well Hanni.

    I however, like to push some odd cards, in the case Vengeful Pharaoh. He works like a charm i this deck, especially along with jace. He is also basically 1cc removal with entombs. I run entombs(3) in addition to 1-2 intuitions. I also run 1 darkblast main and 2-3 loams, as i abuse the grave even more...

  3. #43

    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I ran this at my local shop today and got some pretty poor pairings (1 Merfolk, 2 Ichorid, 1 Burn ) with equally poor draws (mulled a lot) for the deck. I didn't feel that the Spellbomb recursion pile is enough to beat Ichorid, especially on the play. I'll drop the Bog and make room for a set of Leylines alongside the Spellbomb.

    One note, I ran maindeck Misstep over the discard and it seemed fine. This might actually be a mistake, as the draw-go nature of the deck makes getting early information about hands very valuable for planning purposes, i.e. figuring out the best set of plays to walk them into getting blown out by Pernicious Deed. I think there's merits to both approaches.

    I felt fine in the removal suite against Merfolk and while the deck does take a while to win you will get there against creature decks. Because there is in general so little to do during your own turn it doesn't drag out too bad at all.

    Overall my main concern after playing the deck is that the deck is extremely mana hungry and really wants some way to "get ahead" on lands. It's hard to play out your hand with this deck and you are always wanting more lands. A lot of the endgame strategies for this deck are similar to the kind the same ones that Lands ran, and there they had a huge set of acceleration to get them to the point where they could execute those plays and convert the engine to card advantage much quicker.

    Anyway, thanks for the deck list. I am going to try to test it out more and not get too discouraged by my results due to some pretty rough (IMO) pairings. If I had played control/midrange/tempo decks I think I would have done much better.

  4. #44
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    @ routlaw

    This is one of the most difficult decks I've ever piloted. This isn't a deck that you just toss together and expect to dominate tournaments with. Every turn, there is a rediculous amount of choices that you can make, yet there is only one or two optimal choices each time. When to dredge, when to cycle, what to grab in an Intuition pile, when to start making Worm Harvest tokens, when to drop Jace TMS, it's all very complicated. Don't get discouraged from one event. This is the sort of deck that takes alot of practice to pilot well. I've been playing control decks for years, and compared to an auto-pilot control deck like my U/W Control deck "The Justice League" (I play it on auto-pilot, anyway), this deck requires far more playskill.

    Luckily, the practice pays off. The deck is incredibly powerful, and has answers to literally everything between its 75. In addition to that, the card advantage that this deck produces is absurd. As long as you can reach the midgame, which this deck has tons of tools to make sure it does, this deck can and will dominate just about anything. As far as being mana hungry, it can function on low lands (3-4), but it does get mana hungry once the Loam engine gets going. Luckily, Loam helps the deck hit consistent land drops every turn, which works out really well. In fact, one of the strongest aspects of this deck vs other control decks is its ability to make consistent land drops every turn via Loam.
    Last edited by Hanni; 08-29-2011 at 02:56 PM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  5. #45
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I can agree with Hanni. I took it to a local tourney and so far I only played elves, NO Rug and TA. So, I am not a control player and therefore did very poorly with this "hardcore" control deck.

    I made some suboptimal choices costing me games!

    I played to slow and did not close a game (1 extra round missing for the kill), so I had a draw.

    I was not prepared beeig always the last one to finish having NO BREAKS for 5 hours.

    Now I know what I have to prepare for if I want to run this deck and how much I have to practice first.
    Not going to pilot it in my local tourney again though where a lot of budget affinity and burn decks are, which are very tough to beat.

  6. #46
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I can agree with Hanni. I took it to a local tourney and so far I only played elves, NO Rug and TA. So, I am not a control player and therefore did very poorly with this "hardcore" control deck.

    I made some suboptimal choices costing me games!

    I played to slow and did not close a game (1 extra round missing for the kill), so I had a draw.

    I was not prepared beeig always the last one to finish having NO BREAKS for 5 hours.

    Now I know what I have to prepare for if I want to run this deck and how much I have to practice first.
    Not going to pilot it in my local tourney again though where a lot of budget affinity and burn decks are, which are very tough to beat.

  7. #47
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    From my experience so far, I would say that 3 Ancient Tombs allows for the deck to do some absurd things.

    T2 Intuition
    T3 Jace, TMS
    Play and blow up Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives extremely quickly.

    Anyone else played with Tombs? I'm happy with it so far.

  8. #48
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    While I like what you've done with the deck, I assume/hope that some of the inspiration for it stemmed from this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post563318
    I actually never saw that post until you posted the link, sorry. It's funny how similar are lists are, though.

    From my experience so far, I would say that 3 Ancient Tombs allows for the deck to do some absurd things.

    T2 Intuition
    T3 Jace, TMS
    Play and blow up Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives extremely quickly.

    Anyone else played with Tombs? I'm happy with it so far.
    I'm not sure how you can realistically support Ancient Tomb. You run 4 Misstep and 2 Dismember, so you're likely losing quite a few life points just from those. Usually you'll crack a few fetches early, so that's a few more life points. I know from my experience with the deck, once the Loam engine is online, I usually take 4+ additional damage from fetches. If Ancient Tomb dealt two damage upon entering play instead of every time you tap it, that would be one thing, but you cannot really afford to tap the thing more than once.

    If you're hellbent on running them, then you most definitely need Zuran Orb(s) and an Academy Ruins maindeck.

    I've been doing fine without the acceleration, since I am able to slow the game down alot with all of the removal (vs aggro) and the countermagic (vs combo), enough so that accelerating into Intuition or Jace a turn early is not as critical as it is in the aggro/control versions I've playtested in the past. However, I'm not denying how sick a turn 2 Intuition or turn 3 Jace is. I'd sooner run Mox Diamond or Exploration before I'd run Ancient Tomb, though.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  9. #49

    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Hanni, ever considered the cards i suggested?
    Entomb are stronger than it appears in this deck, so strong in my build that it quickly beat out intuition... at least 1 vengeful pharaoh should be fitted in as remowal also. I have have great results with both in similar builds

  10. #50
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Entombs seem overkill to me. This deck doesn't need the Loam engine online on turn 1. The deck should be able to consistently make land drops up until 3-4, and will be busy casting removal, Counterspell, etc to stabilize early. The deck wants the Loam engine in the midgame to consistently hit land drops past 3-4, and to generate card advantage. Early game, unless the deck mulls heavy, it doesn't need the card advantage.

    Intuition is perfect because I cast it as I approach the midgame (3-4 lands, turn 3-4), and then it not only sets up the Loam engine, it sets up other synergistic engines like Worm Harvest, Raven's Crime, Lonely Sandbar, etc.

    If I was running Entomb, I could justify Vengeful Pharaoh, but without it, the guy seems meh. Without a discard outlet, the only way to set it up would be to randomly dredge into it (unlikely and inconsistent), or to "Brainstorm" it back on top and then dredge it. Both plans seem incredibly loose. As a win condition, a 5/4 Deathtouch for 3BB is lackluster, and as a removal engine, the creature still deals damage first, so me/Jace is still taking damage before the creature dies. It's not bad, but without Entomb, it's not a good fit.

    On the other hand, I think the new Liliana, Liliana of the Veil, would be a good fit in here. 1BB for a Sorcery speed Edict that sticks around is solid. If the opponent swings into her, thats 1BB for an Edict and some life gain (basically). If she sticks around, she can possibly get two Edicts off for 1BB - I'm cool with that. 3+ Edict's is just gravy. The discard is most likely going to hurt the opponent far worse than us, especially with an active Loam going. In fact, I can see the discard ability being really good against combo and control. The ultimate also seems impressive; imagine nuking 4+ lands of the opponent's in the control mirror. At the very least, I want to playtest with her.

    From my list in the OP:

    -2 Thoughtseize
    -1 Duress
    -1 Innocent Blood

    +2 Vendilion Clique
    +2 Liliana of the Veil

    I've also tuned my sideboard up a bit:

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
    SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    SB: 2 [PLC] Damnation
    SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
    SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
    SB: 3 [IA] Zuran Orb
    SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  11. #51

    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I'm really curious what your opinion is on the following modification:
    +1 Vengeful Pharaoh

    -1 removal spell (probably ghastly demise?)

    VP seems like it'd have some really sick interactions with dredging life from the loam to put VP back in the graveyard. You could also raven's crime yourself to get rid of it from your hand, and late game it also offers an alternate win condition, especially since he's a 4 turn clock by himself. The deck already runs heavy on the black mana base. I could imagine making an intuition pile of VP, raven's crime, and life from the loam right off the bat, dredging the loam the next turn (possibly after a well-placed brainstorm to put lands on top of library) then raven's criming yourself once (assuming they'd choose for you to keep the VP in hand) and your opponent a couple times, setting up a pretty devastating next turn for the opponent.

    Also, I agree with your thoughtseize/duress vs. mental misstep evaluation. I'd rather pay 2 life and get rid of their best thing in hand at any point during the game than pay 2 life to counter something which might be insignificant mid-to-late game.

    Another question I have is, what's your opinion of the spell "Explore"? It seems like it would essentially do the same thing as mox diamond, minus the drawback of the deed ending it's bonus.

    Could you maybe write up a brief primer on what intuition piles to make vs. various legacy decks? Do the piles change that often? Without playtesting the pile I would be apt to make most often is raven's crime, life from the loam, wasteland/lonely sandbar but I could be way off.

    Looking forward to hearing your feedback!

  12. #52
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Problem with Pharao is that in the situation he's arguably good in - resolved Intuition, you out of the red zone, opponent without answers etc, the deck is already in control and winning. I dislike Clique as well - being evasive is hardly relevant when it constitutes a 6-turn clock with fetches, and 3cc for some disruption and a blocker seems lackluster.

  13. #53

    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Why would pharaoh only be good when your opponent is out of answers and you're out of the red zone? I would think it'd be useful as soon as you can cast intuition, I.E. turn 2 or 3 depending on the build. It could easily make opponents overextend into Pernicious Deed. Or simply make them hold off til they think they're getting value out of their attack (like with a 2/3 tarmogoyf they might wait til it gets bigger before attacking). Plus depending on what your hand is like you could make it instant-speed removal with intuition and an outlet to discard to, though I'm not sure what that might be. (or if you ran 3x vengeful pharaoh instead of 3 of the removal spells it would be surefire instant speed removal, but I wouldn't be able to justify taking up 3 slots for VP's... I still think it merits a 1-of slot and could be abuseable.

  14. #54
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    @ routlaw

    This is one of the most difficult decks I've ever piloted. This isn't a deck that you just toss together and expect to dominate tournaments with. Every turn, there is a rediculous amount of choices that you can make, yet there is only one or two optimal choices each time. When to dredge, when to cycle, what to grab in an Intuition pile, when to start making Worm Harvest tokens, when to drop Jace TMS, it's all very complicated. Don't get discouraged from one event. This is the sort of deck that takes alot of practice to pilot well. I've been playing control decks for years, and compared to an auto-pilot control deck like my U/W Control deck "The Justice League" (I play it on auto-pilot, anyway), this deck requires far more playskill.

    Luckily, the practice pays off. The deck is incredibly powerful, and has answers to literally everything between its 75. In addition to that, the card advantage that this deck produces is absurd. As long as you can reach the midgame, which this deck has tons of tools to make sure it does, this deck can and will dominate just about anything. As far as being mana hungry, it can function on low lands (3-4), but it does get mana hungry once the Loam engine gets going. Luckily, Loam helps the deck hit consistent land drops every turn, which works out really well. In fact, one of the strongest aspects of this deck vs other control decks is its ability to make consistent land drops every turn via Loam.
    how do you feel about the control mirror? I understand that making land drops with loam+ card advantage will probably pull you out in this one (raven's crime recursion let's you just win). but with recent banning of misstep, CB/ top will make a resurgence as the control deck of choice, since storm players will pour out of the hole they've been hiding in the past few months.

    basically i like the aggro match, and the combo match, the various control/aggro- control mirrors is a little concern but they are probably ok, since i haven't spent much time with the deck or played those matches (for some reason people hate playing control mirrors, weird, right?) i was wondering if you had any insight.

    I like the addition of lilliana (good v combo/control(discard) good v control/aggro( edict))

    how have you been handling GY hate? deeding it away? plus leyline seems pretty much unanswerable (i mean there's deed but that's 7 mana on one turn or over two turns used to get rid of it), i mean you can play grip

  15. #55
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I've been awol for a while, sorry guys.

    First of all, now that Misstep is banned, Discard definitely gets the nod. However, I'm going to pursue the Liliana/Clique split first.

    @ Vengeful Pharaoh

    I've already expressed my opinions on this guy. I don't think he does enough to warrant his conditional uses. If the creature died before I took damage, I'd be all over this guy. Since that's not the case, there's just too many hoops involved with getting him going, and his effect is only mediocre. Especially now with Liliana, this deck already has plentiful access to removal, with both Cabal Pit and Liliana offering multiple removal effects when applicable.

    @ Explore

    I haven't tried it, but the effect is rather weak. One additional land and a cantrip for 2 mana at sorcery speed isn't the strongest play.

    @ Intuition piles

    I think I talked about several in the thread, so you may find some helpful info if you read through. The threads only 3 pages long, so it shouldn't be too much info to sift through.

    I don't have the time right now to write up a brief primer, unfortunately. I'm swamped with work and school, sorry.

    @ Control Mirros/Countertop

    I love control mirrors actually, since this deck has such a strong mid-late game. If Intuition resolves, it's gg. Most control decks have little to no answers to a Loam/Crime/Harvest pile, which wrecks them in short order.

    As far as Countertop goes, Deed is a great way to keep it off the board. Deed + postboard Grips should be sufficient.

    @ Graveyard hate

    Yes, Deed is pretty good at destroying permanent-based gy hate, like Crypt, prior to casting Intuition. Discard and countermagic can keep it from doing damage as well. However, it's game dependant. Some games, my opponent gets a few gy hate pieces together early, and I simply play the "keep the board clean, drop a Jace, win" gameplan. This deck abuses the graveyard, but it's not dependant on its graveyard, and can win without it.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  16. #56
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    thanks for answering my questions, will try to give this a whirl when i finally get a bayou and another trop and deeds.

  17. #57
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Here's where I'm at with this deck:

    // MD

    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Cabal pit
    1 Wasteland
    1 Lonely Sandbar

    4 Pernicious Deed
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    4 Innocent Blood

    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Intuition
    2 Ponder

    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Raven's Crime
    1 Worm Harvest

    // SB

    3 Spell Pierce
    2 Krosan Grip
    2 Ghastly Demise
    2 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Vendilion Clique
    1 Tombstalker
    1 Zuran Orb
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Nihil Spellbomb

    ---

    I used to play BUGStill a while ago and one of my major complaints with that deck was the lack of diverse win conditions. If your jace and factory got extirpated you were literally out of ways to win. This deck has the following soft and hard win cons:

    Jace (hard)
    Liliana (soft)
    Raven's crime lock + LftL (soft)
    Worm Harvest tokens + LftL (hard)
    Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins (soft)
    Wasteland + LftL (soft)

    SB:
    Zuran's Orb + LftL (soft)
    Tombstalker (hard)
    Vendilion Clique (hard)

    This diversity is important in my opinion in a meta filled with surgical extractions and extirpates. The boarded creatures have been invaluable in testing and often times win me game 2 despite getting my jace extracted, leaving my opponent looking dumbfounded as to the fact that I boarded in creatures. I'm certainly interested to see where this thread goes in the coming weeks.

  18. #58
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    I'm sad this thread died :(

    Reading through several pages of the [Deck] BUG Control [Team America control style] thread reminded me about this deck, which I had totally forgotten about. Anyway,

    U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    // Lands (23)
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
    4 [R] Underground Sea
    2 [R] Tropical Island
    1 [R] Bayou
    2 [UNH] Island
    1 [UNH] Swamp
    1 [UNH] Forest
    2 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
    1 [OD] Cabal Pit
    1 [TE] Wasteland

    // Spells (37)
    1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
    2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
    4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    4 [TE] Intuition
    1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
    4 [IA] Counterspell
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
    2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    2 [OD] Innocent Blood
    2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
    1 [RAV] Darkblast
    1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
    4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

    // Sideboard (15)
    SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
    SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
    SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
    SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
    SB: 4 [IA] Zuran Orb

    Snapcaster Mage could be an interesting addition, although it would force alot of maindeck changes to work well. Actually, I'm not even sure it would be better than Eternal Witness for this deck, but who knows. SCM is an interesting idea nonetheless.

    I think I may play with this deck a bit when I get some time. I remember having alot of fun with it in the past.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  19. #59

    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    Instead of the pile of Zuran Orbs vs. Burn decks, you could always board in the entire Gigapede-Iona-Unburial Rites Intuition pile. You'd have to run a white source somewhere for the Unburial Rites flashback, but that plan backed up by countermagic seems pretty strong in the other big linear combo matchups (Show and Tell/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator) too.

    It's a bit soft to gravehate, but so is the rest of the deck and generally speaking those combo decks aren't playing a lot of gravehate to begin with. Gigapede himself isn't a bad sideboard card to have around anyway.

    I played the deck and really enjoyed it for quite a while, and liked it's game plan a bit more than generic Goyf beats (which I thought was terrible) or the Standstill/Jace plan (because Standstill in control decks found a way to be even worse now than it was a year ago).

    I did play 3 IoK over Thoughtseize and the fourth Deed, a 3/3 split of the Planeswalkers instead of 4/2, and a maindeck Ruins/Explosives pile over the Darkblast and one of the Underground Seas. I should find a way to get the Darkblast back in there. I have found Explosives to be exceedingly good in the current metagame against the fair decks and advocate finding a way to get a ruins/explosives pile in maindeck.

    Edit: RE: Snapcaster, I'm not a fan of him unless you have a way to utilize the 2/1 body you get from the recoup. This deck doesn't really have much use for the 2/1 beater part of Snapcaster Mage outside of blocking/chumping, and that's just not enough. It also makes Innocent Blood, likely the decks' best removal spell, much worse.

  20. #60
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: U/B/g The Mind Harvester

    The Unburial Rites idea is interesting and something I may try out at some point. It seems a bit too slow against Burn though.

    I'm actually considering running Buried Ruin instead of Academy Ruins to speed up the Orb plan vs Burn.

    This deck plays around gravehate pretty well, all things considered. Plus, it has tools to fight it built into the deck naturally (discard, Deed, etc)

    I tried Ruins + EE before but it was a bit slow, and EE itself was not nearly as good as Deed at the time (heavy Merfolk meta). The meta has changed significantly, and so maybe it's time to revisit that plan. Cabal Pit seems a lot better than EE right now though. It was good before, but it looks to be especially good in this meta. It's a hell of a lot faster than EE, and only requires 1 slot in my Intuition pile. I'll still try maindeck Ruins/EE again though.

    I feel the same way about Snapcaster right now. I don't think he's worth bastardizing my maindeck.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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