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Thread: How healthy is the format?

  1. #1
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    How healthy is the format?

    Take a look at this.
    SCG Boston Top 16

    Looking at the results of the event, we have:

    6 Natural Order RUG
    7 U/w/x "Stoneblade"
    1 Reanimator
    1 Zoo
    1 Zoo/Loam (?)

    More importantly, we also have:

    14 out of 16 are blue decks with counterspells.
    15 out of 16 ran some number of Mental Mistep.
    13 out of 16 ran Force of Will.

    I feel like legacy isn't particularly fun right now. I loved the pre-MM format where you could play whatever you wanted and have a shot with it. Top 8's for events would vary wildly from week to week.

    To quote mrfridays on twitter, "According to the Top 16 of #SCGBOS, this Legacy format is about as healthy as a homeless man with open sores coughing up blood in your face."

    What do you guys think about all this? How do you feel about the state of the format?

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    I noticed this as well earlier today and I thought about posting this as well. As I see it, the Legacy metagame is becoming a real metagame for the first time since I started playing again two years ago and from what I have read about the older days, it seems Legacy was almost always very open. I mean, take a look at the DTB forum, there's eight different decks that are considered to be the most important ones. In other formats there are hardly that many decks at all.
    Before, whenever something was dominant, there was only one deck that was dominant (Flash, Survival). Now there are two decks emerging as being very strong. Personally, I like how the format changed since Mental Misstep, but I also think that more strong decks will be found within the next few months. The format has become much more serious and the games are overall more challenging.

    What's also very interesting is how close most of the lists actually are, decks seem to be much more tuned these days - or people are just lazy and copy decklists that have been successful.

    And by the way, the deck that's labelled Bant Stoneblade is a typical Bant Aggro list. Still, only six distinct archetypes in a Top 16 is very few. Usually we have this much in Top 8 already. However, I would still not go to a Legacy tournament with a deck that's designed to beat a certain set of decks. It's still very important to have a strong proactive gameplan if you want to win in Legacy. Jace, Stoneforge Mystic and Natural Order just seem to be the strongest cards right now, but I'm kinda surprised that there's only one Knight Of The Reliquary deck as these have actually been quite good in my testing as well.
    Maybe this goes along with another trend I noticed lately: Few decks are running the full set of Wastelands anymore. I think this is reasonable. Manabases have become much stronger and more solid recently. People aren't running four colour manabases with 20 lands and no manafixing anymore. If you can't make sure to hit multiple Wastelands in a row, I don't recommend playing them at all right now as they hardly win games just on their own anymore.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    It'll be healthy again when they ban misstep, but for now I can't really stand Legacy.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamieW89 View Post
    It'll be healthy again when they ban misstep, but for now I can't really stand Legacy.
    Amen to this. Pre-Misstep Legacy was arguably the most diverse format in the history of MTG, and it was a lot of fun. Now it's a couple different blue decks with the same basic shell, zoo, and the occasional token combo deck built into the same blue shell. Compared to pre-misstep, where it was a number of different blue decks, 10+ different random combo and rogue decks, and all sorts of different aggro and midrange lists.

    Misstep has pushed a huge number of decks back into the shadows - some haven't outright died, but are now only viable for extremely skilled players (see TES). The hardest hit decks include Goblins, Enchantress, Tempo Thresh, Counter-top (although that was pretty much dead anyway), Junk, Eva Green, Storm combo, High Tide, etc. There are plenty more. Of course, somebody will come out and say, "No n00b those decks are still viable you just suck," and maybe they are - but if they are, they aren't being played and/or aren't winning.

    Blue was already the best color in Legacy pre-Misstep, but you could still compete with other decks. Now, you either play one of the blue DTBs, or you play a deck specifically designed to shit on blue (Zoo, Manaless Dredge, Hive Mind). Otherwise, you lose - simple as that.
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    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Mental Misstep has fully lived up to all my expectations. Oh, how sweet the irony of that card's name is.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    @ all of you "oh my god, we have a defined metagame"-people: That's how a well-defined format looks like. Deal with it.
    You couldn't play each and every deck before if you wanted to win and this didn't change.
    If this means that you can't play your favorite petdeck/-card anymore, I feel you - I'd really like to be able to play Gifts again, but there seems to be no format where it's viable except Vintage (and I'm not able to shell out ~8k for P9, but that's a different topic).

    Now all we have to do is man up and beat NO RUG + SFM-based Control.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    I do agree with most of the post, Legacy was at its best post-Survival ban/pre-Mental Misstep era.

    Its funny how everyone was saying that Mental Misstep would help non-blue decks deal against combo but in reality, it only helped blue decks.

    It feels like Legacy is becoming Standard in a sense that the top competitive decks have decreased in numbers and only those decks become viable.

    Back in the mentioned era above, every week was a different top8. Yes, sideboarding was harder but the format itself was more amusing.

    I guess the only good thing about the current meta is that all the staples you need will be the same. I mean Both NO RUG and Stoneblade decks share almost half of its cardbase. Though the format has had its moment of "go blue or go home", that scenario hasn't been cemented until now.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Anyhow this seems to be an american problem. Everyone likes to join the bus instead of doing something against it ;)

    For reference: German Legacy "Nationals" ~180 Players.
    Top8: Maverick 2x, Hivemind, DDFT, Team America/Eva Green not sure what to call it Tempo thing ;), Sneak Show, UBG "Landstill", RUG without NO.

    So out of 8:
    2times Stoneforge,
    3 times Misstep, one in side
    5 times counterspells

    Won by Maverick.

  9. #9

    Re: How healthy is the format?

    The SCG results show that if your Legacy deck is not blue or if it is not running either Stoneforge Mystic or Natural Order, you are doing it wrong.
    I see more than others do because I know where to look.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by daPaule View Post
    Anyhow this seems to be an american problem. Everyone likes to join the bus instead of doing something against it ;)

    For reference: German Legacy "Nationals" ~180 Players.
    Top8: Maverick 2x, Hivemind, DDFT, Team America/Eva Green not sure what to call it Tempo thing ;), Sneak Show, UBG "Landstill", RUG without NO.

    So out of 8:
    2times Stoneforge,
    3 times Misstep, one in side
    5 times counterspells

    Won by Maverick.
    The European metagame adjusts to shifts more slowly than the American. NO RUG and Esper Stoneblade basically take a shit on every deck in that top eight (except Stoneblade vs. Maverick and maybe RUG vs. Storm).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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  11. #11
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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    This is a twitter from me made 20 June

    @mtgaaron Thank you for fixing standard, but I fear you have banned all nonblue decks from Legacy for three months. :(
    20 Jun

    The problem card is still Force of Will, because it's a timewalk that you can't do anything to avoid, except not playing spells (hello, dredge at DTB). Printing MM which is Force of Will v2.0 just made the issue with "Free counter-based tempo boosts" even more apparent, by giving an huge push to the already best strategy in the format.

    It's no strange that the decks (ab)using free countermagic are tempo based strategies and combo decks. FoW, Daze and other free countermagic are combo/tempo's best friends because they accelerate the turn you can go off as it provides protection without having to leave mana open. In the case of combo decks also act as master bullets that kill the really few cards in the opponent's deck that could stop them. Games are won or lost not depending on the die roll, but on how many free countermagic you happen to draw.

    8 free counterspells used aggresively provide the same kind of tempo acceleration than 4 moxes and 4 lotus petal, but at the expense of the opponent's turns. Plus it gives the illusion of a longer game, so it evades DCI's policy of banning decks that reliably kill in two turns.
    The problem is not in that they are counterspells, but in that they are free. Normal counterspells have a tempo cost that is being side-stepped here, allowing them to be used aggresively by tempo and combo decks. Note how these decks are far more succesful than control decks playing the same cards, that's because they are playing the card "right".

    The meta can't adapt because there's barely NOTHING that meddles with the gameplan of these blue decks, except playing blue yourself, or not casting spells. Because there are no "shield-down" moments, you can't take down the shield with spells designed with that purpose, as they get countered themselves, totally missing the point. The best answer is Aether Vial, and note how prevalent it is in that Top 16.

    Thereby, I twitted the following:

    @TomLaPilleMagic @maro254 Could you design a green "blue-hoser" that doesn't suck? Take a look at blue "blue-hosers" for inspiration.

    Here is TomLaPille's reply:

    TomLaPilleMagic Tom LaPille
    I suggest Great Sable Stag or Thrun, the Last Troll

    Does this make sense? putting Great Sable Stag in your deck to hose blue decks is like putting Lhurgoyf in your deck to hose Graveyard-based strategies. Like putting White Knight in your deck to fight Necropotence decks. It fights the wrong battle.

    So I replied:

    @TomLaPilleMagic They don't work, hosers should meddle with the opponent's gameplan. Thrun and GSS are just efficient lategame creatures.

    And he replied me again:

    I know a few Mistbind Cliques that would beg to differ with you about Great Sable Stag.

    Well, I appreciate a lot that he took the time to reply, but it looks like he gave an answer for an entirely different problem, so I don't know what else to do except waiting for september's banning.
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  12. #12

    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Legacy is fine.

    People were bitching and complaining when Aether Vial was blowing out people in Aggro decks like Merfolk and Goblins. Now that Misstep is here, people are complaining it is warping the format. It isn't 'warping' anything, folks; it's a product of a lack of creativity. There is a huge influx of new players running brews they see listed on Star City's website or by word of mouth from friends, and those folks just pick those decks up and run with them. Legacy is at an all-time low as it pertains to its 'creative' aspect, which is why you see the same decks like NO Rug, Hive Mind, etc. running the gauntlet week in and week out. I still feel the format is fine, though. There are lots of different archetypes winning each week, which is what makes the format great.

    To be honest though, I had more fun when Mystical Tutor and Survival were legal.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Let's face it, SCG players don't innovate much, they are always playing the current "supposed DTB" and if you take SCG results into account without looking for number of wins against the field, you'll ban a card per year as if they were responsible for the non-variance of SCG players.
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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gui View Post
    Let's face it, SCG players don't innovate much, they are always playing the current "supposed DTB" and if you take SCG results into account without looking for number of wins against the field, you'll ban a card per year as if they were responsible for the non-variance of SCG players.
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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    Legacy is fine.

    People were bitching and complaining when Aether Vial was blowing out people in Aggro decks like Merfolk and Goblins. Now that Misstep is here, people are complaining it is warping the format. It isn't 'warping' anything, folks; it's a product of a lack of creativity. There is a huge influx of new players running brews they see listed on Star City's website or by word of mouth from friends, and those folks just pick those decks up and run with them. Legacy is at an all-time low as it pertains to its 'creative' aspect, which is why you see the same decks like NO Rug, Hive Mind, etc. running the gauntlet week in and week out. I still feel the format is fine, though. There are lots of different archetypes winning each week, which is what makes the format great.

    To be honest though, I had more fun when Mystical Tutor and Survival were legal.
    I had a ton of fun when Mystical Tutor was legal, but I'm a storm player at heart so take that with a grain of salt. There's plenty of people playing other things (I've been having a ton of fun with the NO/Protean Hulk deck myself) but if you're going to a big tournament and want to win, you pick up a blue deck. Playing anything else is just handicapping yourself at this point, as blue has everything it needs to beat both aggro and combo.

    EDIT: I would love to see more innovation in the format. Of course SCG isn't well known for that, but even in my local meta it gets annoying having to play against the same blue decks over and over again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Regardless of creativity, decks these days literally need to play blue to be competitive. If any of you know of some secret non-blue deck that has a strong matchup against NO RUG and Stoneblade, please enlighten the rest of us.

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust View Post
    Regardless of creativity, decks these days literally need to play blue to be competitive. If any of you know of some secret non-blue deck that has a strong matchup against NO RUG and Stoneblade, please enlighten the rest of us.
    The Punishing Fires/Burning Wish aggro loam build I played a while ago was solid against both, but I wouldn't call it a "strong" matchup - somewhat favored perhaps. You automatically roll to any combo deck though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
    Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Why are the results of SCG Richmond ignored completely?

    There were 3 non-blue decks in the top 8 (one of them did have Mental Misstep) and some more in the top 16.
    Pittsburgh was similar with even 4 decks out of the top 8 being non-blue.

    Don't get me wrong I am not saying that everything is fine but I am just not buying the argument if it's presented that way.

    By looking at the results of the latest three SCGs I fail to see any kind of indication that something is wrong (which doesn't mean that there isn't anything wrong but the argument is just very very weak)

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zunam View Post
    Why are the results of SCG Richmond ignored completely?

    There were 3 non-blue decks in the top 8 (one of them did have Mental Misstep) and some more in the top 16.
    Pittsburgh was similar with even 4 decks out of the top 8 being non-blue.

    Don't get me wrong I am not saying that everything is fine but I am just not buying the argument if it's presented that way.

    By looking at the results of the latest three SCGs I fail to see any kind of indication that something is wrong (which doesn't mean that there isn't anything wrong but the argument is just very very weak)
    "3 non-blue decks" being used as an argument that the format is fine is pretty bad. That's still a strong majority of blue.
    Lord of the Chalice

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
    Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz

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    Re: How healthy is the format?

    Quote Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust View Post
    Regardless of creativity, decks these days literally need to play blue to be competitive. If any of you know of some secret non-blue deck that has a strong matchup against NO RUG and Stoneblade, please enlighten the rest of us.
    If anything, you could play Zoo or GWr Maverick (aka Big Zoo). BUt it's hard for non-blue decks to match the consistency you get from Brainstorm and the power you get from Vendilion Clique and/or Jace. Natural Order is also much stronger in blue shells than in non-blue (Zoo for example) where you can't do much about drawing Progenitus.
    I agree that there's almost no incentive to not play blue, but in my opinion that's not a problem. I like the current state of Legacy.

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