For sure on Invoke Prejudice. It'll be the Squire that some SFM based decks run in the sideboard just for the lols.
-Matt
Yes, the manabase is an abortion.
Yes, if you don't know how to properly mulligan, this deck is not for you.
It's obviously a meta-predator. It's worst matchup is Burn or Stax, and if those decks are in your local meta, move.
Tidehallow Sculler is not where this deck wants to go. You generally want to wait till turn 3-4 to cast SFM, anyway. Also, you don't need to blow wasteland as soon as you play it.
Typically, the curve is T1 stifle, T2 hymn, T3 SFM with a blue source up. Unless you are playing against Zoo or NORug, you should not be wasting them until turn 4. This is not Team USA/Can Thresh.
If you can't handle things like resolved permanents/wastelands then go -2flex -1 hymn/+3 ponder.
Id rather play Jace and Hymn than cantrip though. 20 lands is OK in my book.
Only posts when drunk.
Because the colonists took a land filled with lush forests and messed it up to the point of ecological instability?Originally Posted by Tombstalker
/notracist
@lord - booo (ok maybe it was a little funny)
How about Team Estonia? Huh? Huh?
Its also awesome playing a deck with Brainstorm that eats merfolk alive, every time.
And people, STOP MISSTEPING the lightning bolt/stp on the first SFM you play. You'll be happy you had it for their follow up threat.
Only posts when drunk.
Unfortunately people in this thread are more interested in discussing names that the problem that hanni and I are pointing out which is that SFM unlike Gyof is not a tempo but more a midrange card.
How do you feel about this issue what were your experiences?
Would it be therefore maybe viable to go into a different direction and change the tempo cards as I suggested...?
First, sorry for my rusty english :)
I recently went 6-1-0 during Swiss rounds in a 80 people tournament sporting a list quite close to the first one on the opening post (and unfortunatly losing to UGB Landstill in QF due to huge draws from my opp.).
I agree with the statement that SFM is much more of a Middle-to-Late-Game card compared to Tarmogoyf.
That being said, I do feel that the tempo elements of the list can be used to some other purposes than simply inducing color death on your opponent side. Stifle on the opponent SFM trigger or Jace activation or KotR ability create a huge breach in their strategy (hell yeah, losing a Jace to a Tombstalker board is a crucial momentum shift). Depending on the Matchup and the presence of color fixing elements such as Noble Hierarch, the tempo strategy can be nullified and one must switch to a more controling approach.
Stifle and to a lesser extend Wasteland allow to focus on the key elements of your opponent strategy, gaining you the time necessary to drop and defend a game winning Batterskul or Tombstalker.
If your opponent runs a more fragile manabase, Stifle/Wasteland do their job perfectly out-tempoing him till you drop your kills or efficiently hymn away his full-of-bombs hand.
I could be wrong but I feel this list two greatest's problems are :
- its clunky manabase (noting new here)
- its inability to deal with problematic non-creature, non-PW permanents post board.
With the two combined, if our opponent is able to squeeze a Choke or Back to Basics throught our disrupt and countermagic wall, well, that's as GG as it could be.
In tweaked the list a little to play a MD basic swamp and have 2 disenchant ready in the board to deal with non-basics land hate.
The problem with the deck you posted is that its a worse esperblade. The thing that distinguishes this deck from esperblade is Stifle / Hymn / Tombstalker.
Let me start here: "Oh noes! My SFM gets shot down by lightning bolt?!!" Who cares? If you know they're playing red, grab Sword of X & Y, dont waste them immediately, and get a stalker on the board. I hear its real hard for red removal to shoot down a stalker . . . Just adjust your play style to get through the red.
"SFM is slower than goyf" - If you want this deck to play exactly like Team America, you're wrong. Goyf is a great beater, a one time investment, but ultimately just a vanilla creature. This deck is harder to play than Team America because SFM is harder to play than goyf. You will get punished for misplays and lucky top decks from your opponent. It happens.
"Everyone is packing SFM hate in the board" - Yes, this makes G2 and G3 more difficult. But what you gain from having SFM in this deck is you win G1 more often than not. I personally would rather have a harder G2 and G3. Even with hate, those matches are far from unwinnable.
"16 colored mana prodcution blah blah blah" - Add more if you want more. I dont know about you guys, but my meta is NOT filled with 5 mana land denial.dec
IF yours is, don't pick up the deck. This deck is like playing with fire. Getting locked out of white sucks, but you can play through that pretty easily. After all, most LD you have to deal with is wasteland, and fortunately, you can only have 4 in a deck. The decks that run wasteland are some of our harder match ups (IE: control blade). But you dont stifle fetches against those match ups, you just save them from wasteland.
Just learn to play through bad situations and you'll love the deck. Its powerful, and just beats the pants off of so many decks, its unfair.
I'll be honest, I've played both Team America and played against this deck. Both seem pretty good, but I definitely think you've got to stop trying to T2 SFM. I think most people playing this deck just assume you're running Stoneblade, and you're trying to Batterskull the opponent as soon as possible.
The deck does run out of Steam reasonably quickly (if you can answer the immediate barrage of threats), but if you can't, then you get pretty hosed. What I really miss in this deck is Sylvan Library, mostly. I love Swords and SFM, but Library really kicks me in the pants. Plus, I can't run Grips against other Equipment, which makes me a sad panda.
I see this deck as Team America, but with a much better mid-to-late game plan.
-Matt
@Matt -that's exactly correct. Since the meta has slowed down, why not capitalize on it? At least, until people start packing jank like Mogg Salvage in their sideboard.
Only posts when drunk.
There was a post in the original TA thread about this deck, but I don't think the poster saw this or knew of it.
Anyway his question was that if darkblast is to be played, and you decide to SB is one really sufficient or would you need 2?
My thoughts are if you are playing against NO-RUG and you do have a darkblast, you also have:
STP, diabolic edict, perish, vindicate( if you run those like I do) and dismember, meaning not much is going to be living very long, so 1 DB would be enough.
If you are only playing NO-RUG all day, then sure maybe a second would be good, though I still feel 1 is enough.
Anyone who eats hot dogs with their mouth is doing it wrong, as far as I’m concerned.
Hi all,
My meta is quite aggro heavy, and because of that, more and more combo decks are popping out. There is not much true control (10-15% out of 40-50 players) and a lot of fetches and duals over there. I felt I needed a way to play Stifle+Hymn becuase it works and I like it, while being able to beat aggro, and I've never been a fan of the "New TA" with Confidants.
So I decided to "brainlessly" swap green for white, and I don't regret! I've played 2 Legacy tournaments in the last 2 months and I've been the 1st after swiss rounds in both of them, having lost only 3 rounds out of 15 (11w 1id 3l). For reference, my last list is this one:
Team Catalunya - JMLL
Creatures - 8
4 Tombstalker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
Artifacts - 2
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Spells - 30
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
Lands - 20
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
2 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Perish
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
The deck simply stomps any Gw Zenith, Zoo or Bant without discussion, maybe the extra hate in the side is not needed (5 cards) but it was a meta choice for the amount of GW decks in my meta. I added the Jaces in the side (originally they were 1 StP and 1 Sword of B&M) as I prefer to have an option against Control decks if I ever encounter one.
Let me explain the reasoning behind some choices:
- 4 Tombstalker, 3 Stoneforge, 1 Vendilion
I've been in too many games (while testing) where my 3rd Stoneforge was a dead draw. I prefer having something to equip and DEAL DAMAGE to my opponents. A Stoneforge + any equipment is not enough to stall the ground, a Tombstalker is. So I NEED a tombstalker, and I want 5 (4 + some mini-tombstalker). I agree that a Batterskull can stall the ground, but it gets all the possible hate and I find myself losing some turns for it as it tends to be destroyed, or I have to save 3 mana to return it to my hand plus it's an extremely bad draw if I don't have a Stoneforge. So, it's just Side tech for now.
- No Batterskull main
It's too mana intensive to play it right. We are not Patriot, we don't have "reliable" mana, so we cannot afford that.
- 2 Snuff Out, 2 StP, 1 Smother
I don't have much mana to spend in my removal. I need to cast it, though, and I feel I need 5. I cannot play ONLY StP, as now, with Mental Misstep everywhere, StP may NOT land. And I want my removal to hit the target. ALWAYS. That's why I cannot use an "unreliable" removal as a 4 of. I can play 2, as it's the best suited one in here, but not a 4 of, for sure.
- 4 Underground, 2 Tundra, 1 Scrubland
The reasoning behind 1 Scrubland is easy. I want to search for it on T2 (ideally for Hymn) but i NEVER want to have it in my opening hand. I need 1 blue in my opening, so in T2 I may need 1W, BB and/or Ux. There is only one solution to that and that's the reason why we play a Scrubland.
I need BB a lot, and I may not need W for my removal (see point above) so 3 Tundras are not as important as it may seem.
My pain is, as always, Burn or Boros. Both decks are too fast for me to stop them, specially if they go first as I cannot deny their 1st fetch to Mountain. My idea is to add the Sword of W&P in the main in order to have more options.
After all the wall of text, what would be your options in order to improve my Burn/Boros pairings without disrupting much the others? I've heard -3 Vindicate + 3 Chill but I'm not sure of that. Any ideas?
Thanks all,
A PRO doesn't draw, he tutors every turn.
JMLL
JMILL, I'm glad to hear you're having great results with the list. Let me start by saying, you have results and I'm not trying to say anything you're doing is wrong. Everything I'm putting here is my opinion.
Batterskull MD: I agree, this card is mana intensive. However this can easily be played around. If you're worried about your mana bieng attacked or your SFM dying, just go for Sword of X and Y instead of Batterskull. Batterskull is pretty much the reason for the white switch. A resolved batterskull puts a lot of decks in a tight spot. Even if it doesnt get there all the way, with Tombstalker beats, its more than enough.
3 SFM: Ive often considered doing this, but I'm not sure this is the right call. SFM can be a dead draw, and its not nearly as powerful as Tombstalker. However, a play set is best able to fight through removal. If you're running 2 Sword of X and Y instead of a batterskull, its not as important. I'm a fan of batterskull, so I personally won't drop below 4.
4 Tombstalker: Ive played both 3 and 4 tombstalkers. I ended up settling on 3 because getting stalker flooded sucks. I've just had too many situations where I just keep drawing stalkers instead of gas. Between Batterskull / SFM, V clique / Jace, 3 tombstalker has always been enough for me.
Your 2/2/1 removal suite: I've gone between 4 StP and a 3/2 split of StP / Dismember. I always end up coming back to 4 StP. The biggest issue with StP is that it can be MM'd, but thats okay. StP is still the best removal spell in the game. However, if you want to do a split, I have to ask: Have you tried Dismember > snuff out? I originally did 3/2 StP / Snuff out but was constantly getting run over by opposing tombstalkers and bobs (and germ tokens!). I just feel like dismember is a superior removal spell.
4/2/1 Mana base: Its a fair decision. The only reason I play 3/2/2 is that I play so much white. With your list, 4/2/1 just makes sense. My only concern is that you have to be careful of getting your white sources hit. Its hard, LSV was right, Esper mana is not easy, but its workable
Submerge: Is this really necessary? I'm just curious where you need / want it where a removal spell just wouldnt work better
Finally, on your bad match ups with burn and boros: MD batterskull helps a little bit, I'm not sure what else there is to do. Every deck has bad match ups, and this is our worst. If your meta is full of burn, put the deck away for a little while. Part of the reason we're so good against so many decks is that when we have a bad match up, its pretty bad. Also, don't play MUC. That is just a nightmare for us.
HI:
Just new to this deck and trying to familiarize myself with it. Obviously having issues regarding SB so I'd like to ask a few questions:
Is there any situation that we board out Stifle or the stoneforge package?
Will boarding in extirpate be better against Control(stoneblade, landstill) or will the thoughtseize and spell pierce be better?
I know there were tips regard SB posted on the primer, but would like to know specific cards to side out.
My biggest advice for SBing in this deck is that nothing is sacred. SB what is right, or what feels right. Do your homework, test some, and trust your gut. Here's a few comments though:
1) Stifle - Siding out stifle is a pretty common play for decks running it. Stifle has its biggest impact g1 and leaves a bad taste in your opponents mouth for the rest of the match. Unless the card is extremely relevant for the match up, I'd consider boarding it out.
2) Spell Pierce / Daze: Personally, i rarely have both in the 60 at the same time. I typically rotate them depending on if im the play. So to answer part of your question for Control Blade: Side pierce in over daze G2 and keep it in G3. Daze is bad against such a land heavy deck. If you're playing zoo or other random shenanigans, you may want to keep some counters in just for the Choke they're bringing.
3) Thoughtseize: Assuming you sided out stifle and did the Daze / Spierce slot, you now have 4 free slots in your MD. If it's a control match up, I'm all about bringing Seize in. Id do it over extirpate every time as well (i'll discuss that next). If you're against combo, this is also a sure bet to side in. Bieng able to be proactive is just a good feeling.
4) Extirpate: This card is a personal favoriate of mine. If you don't find it to your play style, cut it and put it's slot to a better use. I side it in against dredge / reanimator (obviously), combo (if i think they're packing Silence > xantid swarm), team america / the mirror, and sometimes control blade. How do i find room for it?
- GY decks: It's not as powerful as regular GY hate, but it can still tip the match
in your favor. Thats probably the weakest point of this card. I tend
to side out some combination of the counter suite (MM / Daze), stifle
and Hymn to bring in extirpate. If its reanimator, I may keep hymn
in, but you may also want to consider packing thought seize.
- Team America / the Mirror: What i take out is usually MM. The weakest point of
TA and our deck is our fragile mana base and our low threat count.
An early extirpate on a land is crippling blow, if not a death sentence.
- Control Blade: This is a risky call. Extirpate lets you fight through waste lock.
I can honestly say thats the best thing it's got going for it in this
match up. If you can stop a Jace / Elspeth or smash a factory before
it kills you, extirpate proves itself again. But this card is only okay
in the match up. If you cant find room for this and Thoughtseize post
board, go with seize.
I know, I'm not very specific. The thing about this game is it's all about information. I don't have a specific SB strategy, I SB based on what I read from my opponent. If you have specific questions, PM me.
There ya go
@SpeakingofJager: First of all, thanks for your kind way of exposing your opinion. I've never been corrected in a better way
Let me explan what I see and maybe we'll reach a better point with more info.
Batterskull + 3 Tombstalker + 4 Stoneforges: I see that there's a kind of "pack" that I used in one direction, more aggro oriented, and that you use in another one. The result is almost the same, as a resolved and protected Tombstalker wins the game, the same way a resolved and protected Batterskull does. You have more "life swing" (+8 or +5) but no evasion... Choices.
In my game, the Stoneforge is just a tutor + uncounterable play for the Equipment. In your case (-1 Tombstalker +1 Stoneforge + Batterskull over Sword of Whatever) means that you NEED a stoneforge to play your 4th Tombstalker (the batterskull), so SFM is almost always a good draw and that's another reason why you don't need that many Demons. And if they kill one, you just go for the next one.
I feel that your play may be safer, but exploits less the "timming window" when my deck puts that much preassure. Going for Batterskull may secure victory, but gives the opponent more time and more options that may be an answer. And also, a bad removal on the Stoneforge kicks you out of the game as you may find the 2nd one too late to recover. It may be playstile or meta call. I'll test your route, though.
Jace: I still don't get how anyone can pack this in the maindeck going with 20 lands and playing a wasteland asap in order to exploit the advantage of the cheap drops we play. Maybe I play it wrong, but I tend to punish my opponent as much as I can. In control matchups where playing no cards but lands is the safest way to go, having one or two of them may mean victory.
Removal: I've thought a lot about the removal suite. 2/2/1 may not seem ace, but they give me answers to a lot of the main problems I may face. In my meta, Knight of the Reliquary was a stample, may it be in Zoo, in GW Zenith or in Bant decks. I feel that Dismember may not solve this. I'm not sure, though, when I've played the removal without spending any mana because it was safer or when I could have saved some life by using Dismember instead. What I'm not fully comfortable is the MM on StP. They're ace, OK, but what if it gets countered by a stupid spell? There are no Tombstalkers or Confidants in my meta, some germs, though, so I don't feel like Snuff Out is that bad.
Submerge: This card gives me answers to Zoo, GW Zenith and Bant decks really easily. If a fetch is cracked, then Submerge really shines. I can take out counters, or ponders or Stifles (depending on what I see) in order to play a "pseudo removal" spell. It does the same job but the card is in the middle of the deck instead of in it's owner's gYard. It makes my Green-x pairings easier. It's a kind of "Snuff Out" without life cost. It may be overkill and then I could use that slot for something better, but a free spell is too tempting.
Well, I see there's not much to do Vs Boros/Burn by now. I'll keep that in mind when the elimination round pairs me Vs that
Thanks again.
A PRO doesn't draw, he tutors every turn.
JMLL
I don't know if this belongs here but it is what used to be my Team America deck. I changed Goyf for SFM and Tombstalker for Bob. I also don't play FoW to keep the curve very low. I also took out any form of double black costing cards. This deck has a lot of disruption and a lot of fuel. It basically wins by continuously disrupting your opponent while beating with a batterskull or a clique. Here is my Esper America list:
Creatures (10)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
Artifacts (2)
2 Batterskull
Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard (15)
4 Spell Pierce
3 Disenchant
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Extirpate
2 Smother
My meta is infested with SFM (20 out of 30 players play it aproximately) and Spell Snare/Stifle are really important. Punishing my opponent's manabase with Stifle/Wasteland/Vindicate is really important and keeps Daze relevant for a long time. I don't play much GY hate because there is only 1 Dredge player out of that 30 players and there is probably 6-8 Stoneblade/Maverick players. A couple of NO Bant and NO RUG here and there too, this deck is a great predator.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Very few people seem to enjoy what dark confidant brings to the deck, but if you feel it works for you, I guess you have to keep it. Without tombstalker though, the deck can feel like a less controlling esperblade deck, but once again if its good for YOU, awesome.
One thing though I surprised to not see it that deck is thoughtseize in some amount.
You could make room for them without much difficulty, cutting a few of the 4 cards like vindicate, stifle, spell snare, daze, swords to plowshares in some combination to fit them in.
Anyone who eats hot dogs with their mouth is doing it wrong, as far as I’m concerned.
there has been discussion about the implications of banning mental misstep in the green TA, so the question is, is it worse for this deck to have misstep banned or will it be about the same?
Anyone who eats hot dogs with their mouth is doing it wrong, as far as I’m concerned.
It should be about the same. Itll make disrupting turn 1 a bit harder, itll make goblins a bit harder. I personally want neither of those, but on the same note, it makes StP that much better. The banning of MM would reinforce the fact that StP is superior removal to what TA is running.
@ JMILL: Sorry for the late response. Don't get me wrong, I wasnt trying to correct you or call you wrong. If your list works, I'm happy for you. I was just adding input / commenting. If I came off as a dick, I apologize.
Last edited by SpeakingofJager; 09-18-2011 at 11:55 PM.
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