[SCD] Liliana of the Veil

[catmint]

Card Type: Planeswalker

Subtype: Liliana

Loyalty: 3

Casting Cost: 1BB

Card Text: [+1]: Each player discards a card.
[-2]: Target player sacrifices a creature.
[-6]: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of his or her choice.

Finally looks like a playable planeswalker in black!
Has the ability to protect itsself and the discard has in general synergy with black.
ideas?

[Einherjer]

I think there are good ways to make the +1 asymmetric. A'la Discard a land for Life from the Loam.
Thats the deck Id actually test it in.

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggro Loam might be interested in her. The problem is that deck already has a lot of three-drops, although Maelstrom Pulse has been underwhelming for a while. It might be worth testing her over that.

[overseer1234]

Seems cool in pox.

Discarding bloodghast, or land/redundant cards (2nd crucible,...)doesn't sound to bad for the +1 ability (also extra fodder for tombstalker)

the -2 might just be what the deck needs, and the ultimate is simply pox on a stick...

[GGoober]

Holy crap a 3cmc Planeswalker that isn't BLUE.

Very good potential in Legacy. The 3cmc Edict is alright in the format considering that she's a thorn and buys an attack step, and if unstopped becomes quite the annoyance against any deck packing creatures. Even if her discard is symmetrical, she fits in perfectly in black/pox-based decks or a deck with Loam to break the symmetry.

The only issue is that in top-deck mode, her edict can't be used fast enough when your opponents constantly drop creatures while you are left with no cards in hand because you're both top-decking.

[Scordata]

Her and Vengeful Pharaoh make a nice team. I expect this to be abused in standard.

[Humphrey]

I dont see her in any Tier1 Deck

[Tao]

She is extremely good in the right deck. Close to being broken. She has everything a Planeswalker needs. Cheap cost, self protection and a way to create card advantage. Either play her as an Edict with built-in life-gain or activate the engine with Loam or Vengies or whatever it is that Pinky Pox does.

[Tombstalker]

Any Deck that runs discard and/or gatekeeper will run this. Decks that I can see utilizing liliana are BUG landstill, TA, the gate, DGA, and all loam decks splashing black will at least consider her. Id also like to point out that you don't necessarily need to break the symmetry of her discard effect for it to be good. While not CA, its at worst still card parity that you control and if used in a fast tempo deck it can easily become one sided.

[Hanni]

Until I playtest the new Liliana, I can only speculate and theorize on her actual power, but so far, she seems to be quite good.

She seems to be a natural shoe-in for my U/B/g The Mind Harvester deck, which is essentially a U/B/g Landstill deck minus Manlands/Standstill plus Intuition/Loam. I see her being good in U/B/g Landstill too, just not as much.

Anway, those decks gain tremendous benefit out of her. At worst, she's a 3 mana sorcery speed Edict + lifegain (you kill a guy, they attack into her to kill her).

However, those decks are more than capable of keeping the board clear. Dropping Liliana on a clear board means she's ramping up to 4 counters immediately. The self-discard is mostly irrelevant in my Mind Harvester deck. At that point, she's basically a double Edict, and the opponent either needs to commit two threats on the following turn (unlikely), or it's very plausible that they will never be able to stick another creature to the board. So in that scenario, she's either +1 CA (two Edicts), or can become exponentially more (CA) each passing turn that the opponent is unable to drop a creature.

Basically, she's a proactive removal spell like Deed. You don't need to have a target (opposing creature) to be able to put her into play. So instead of sitting on dead removal (in hand) when the board is clear, you can get some value out of her. The discard can be great against opposing control and combo decks, and the ultimate is also really strong against opposing control (destroys their manabase). I'm not sure of the implications of her ultimate vs combo decks, as this is something I'd like to playtest with before coming to any conclusions.

Also, imagine having her and a Jace TMS on the board at the same time. Now, the opponent is in an almost impossible to overcome state, because Liliana will protect Jace, and Jace can do the bounce ability if the opponent drops two threats in the same turn (or of course, dig for an answer to the second threat). The Fatesealing + discard combo is also brutal, since you are reducing their card quality, and the card you're giving them may be something that will be trapped in hand that Liliana can discard.

Liliana also works well under Worm Harvest tokens, since the tokens force the opponent to overcommit threats. Meanwhile, it allows Liliana to ramp up counters. Once Liliana ramps up counters, she can then nuke roughly half of the opponent's board with her ulimtate.

Either way, I'd like to do some actual playtesting with her once they release the INN patch for MWS, but I'm sure most of my thought process on her power level in my Mind Harvester deck is going to be spot on.

[Rizso]

Im treating her very much like Jace Beleren, something you play use a couple of turn then play an other. Like 1st ramp up, 2 edicts play an other for either edict or discard. She is a pretty low mana cost 2+ for 1 spell that affects the board. I like all the 3 abilties, the ultimate is one of the cheapest there is. Its no jace, not something you will ride all the way to victory.

[Hanni]

Im treating her very much like Jace Beleren, something you play use a couple of turn then play an other. Like 1st ramp up, 2 edicts play an other for either edict or discard. She is a pretty low mana cost 2+ for 1 spell that affects the board. I like all the 3 abilties, the ultimate is one of the cheapest there is. Its no jace, not something you will ride all the way to victory.

Pretty much your last sentence sums it up. Liliana does not function the same way as a Planeswalker like Jace or Elspeth does, in regards to being a win condition. Rather, Liliana is a powerful and versatile control element. Her primary function is removal, so she easily fits into a few removal spots from whatever control deck she's fit into, but she fills several roles.

[Lemnear]

I'll focus my testing in hellbent and madness with a lil' ride into pox

[Antonius]

KotR has a new homegirl.

She's called Liliana of the Junky Loam.

@Aggro_Zombies: No way Liliana is better than any of the three drops already in Aggro Loam except in certain matchups (combo). She's a sideboard card. The hammer that goes with Duress, Pyroblast, whatever else you might be running for the combo matchups.

[catmint]

I had similar thoughts then most of you. Of course any deck with pox or loam would be a nice fit.
Not sure if she can fit (all) removal spots because these are often needed early.
Team America running it... don't think so...provides more control than tempo advantage.

Her ultimate is of course not a wincondition, but in the right deck she can easily take over the game.
Sacrificing half of the permanents is pretty strong if she lets discard 3-4 cards first.

[Aggro_zombies]

KotR has a new homegirl.

She's called Liliana of the Junky Loam.

@Aggro_Zombies: No way Liliana is better than any of the three drops already in Aggro Loam except in certain matchups (combo). She's a sideboard card. The hammer that goes with Duress, Pyroblast, whatever else you might be running for the combo matchups.

Well, she's certainly worse than Crusher or Assault. I think it's debatable how much better she is than Pulse; aside from situations involving Jace and Aether Vial, Pulse is just a really overcosted Terminate, and I would rather have a cheaper removal spell in that slot for Bob and mana efficiency purposes. The +1 ability is generally good against blue decks, and the Edict effect is good against the creature-light ones.

[bruizar]

Best card in the set. Card is the real deal. Works great alongside jace 2.0.

I see this go into bug lists almost immediately.

Jace bounce, liliana discard
Jace bounce irrelevant creature, liliana edict relevant creature
Edict progenitus
Doesnt conflict with other 4 drops
Can be cast off ritual
Liliana discard, jace fateseal to nullify outs (in hand and fom top deck)

First 3cc planeswalker that can protect herself.


This wilk go in a deck with pernicious deed, tarmogoyf, dark confidant, jace 2.0, liliana of the veil, and a bunch of counters.

Although good in pox, pox is still a bad (but fun) deck.

[Tammit67]

I love her. Seems ridiculous, but maybe not enough for legacy?

[NyxathidHorror]

Theoretically sounds really good, but we'll see. Seems extremely fun in pox.

[SpikeyMikey]

Works great alongside jace 2.0.

Hanni said this also, but I would like to reinforce this statement. Turn 3 Liliana into turn 4 Jace is nuts against anything midrange or control. It's passable against Zoo but they will end up killing her. But against decks that won't have multiple threats on the board on turn 2? Unless they're capable of dropping multiple threats a turn early like that (turn 3, turn 4), you can alternate using Jace and Liliana to deal with threats, leaving your mana open for counters, dig or removal. It's an incredibly strong 1-2 punch and I think it's going to give BUG critical mass. I'm considering resurrecting 4c BHWC Landstill and modifying it to include the 'walkers. The format is definitely slow enough right now.