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Thread: Modern Banned List

  1. #981
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I hope they do not unban BBE, I collect them and I would very much like not to have to spend out the arse for them.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    I understand that many disagree with WotC's decision to ban Twin in the first place, but lets assume that if it was to be allowed back in the format, Wizards would only allow it if its meta penetration was drastically reduced from when it was the format's policeman.

    Based on that assumption, what has changed or been printed that makes you think its numbers would be within a 'WotC acceptable' range?
    Twins meta penetration was never that high, they banned it simply to shake up the format before the PT. It was one of the top performers, but never too dominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I only see BBE getting the unban. It was only ever in the format alongside Deathrite Shaman and if you compare it to other 4 drops that Jund would play it's about the same power level (obviously depending on the cascade). Without Deathrite Shaman they don't have the speed to just bury you like they used to.

    I can't see an unban on Splinter Twin, definitely not happening with SfM (that card is so busted), Jace is the only other maybe, but I'd hate to see it without another reprint. JtMS wouldn't be unsafe it'd just be expensive as hell, and I think more people would complain from it being legal than it just living on the ban list.

    Can you imagine if WotC unbanned Twin and then it took over the format again? That'd be some irreparable PR damage when they banned it a 2nd time.
    I don't see SfM being too busted for Modern honestly. Push, Kommand, Gurmag/Shadow being bigger than skull, more combo decks...there's plenty of reasons that SfM wouldn't be overpowered that I can see. It's never had a chance in Modern though, so I could be well off base.

    For Twin, was it ever taking over the format? It was always one of the best decks, but never head and shoulders above everything else. If it was unbanned and went back to how it was before, I don't see a problem with that.
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    The issue against Twin (Not that I care) is that people had to live in fear as of turn 3. So it's Tempo was second to none as players had to hold up removal all the time. The protection afforded against something like Inquisition after turn three could also suck. I think overall Modern can handle Twin just fine, but Modern players likely can't handle the fear involved in playing against Twin.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I don't see SfM being too busted for Modern honestly. Push, Kommand, Gurmag/Shadow being bigger than skull, more combo decks...there's plenty of reasons that SfM wouldn't be overpowered that I can see. It's never had a chance in Modern though, so I could be well off base.
    I think SfM was one of the first diversity killers in Legacy. It just gives blue shells too much of an ability to fight literally anything, and to do it pretty aggressively. Delver at least requires some deck building constraints, SfM lets you play a 4/4 lifelink on turn 3 every single game with the only constraint being you have to play a Batterskull in your deck, which is almost playable on its own. Throw in a Sword of F&F and your deck now takes on everything in the format that isn't combo or control. I think it would immediately become the best 2 cmc creature in the format and it would pretty quickly beat out midrange decks as the go to strategy since it is very easy to run counterspells alongside.

    I'd enjoy if they unbanned it, I like playing decks with it, but it is too potent a threat for the deck requirements.

    For Twin, was it ever taking over the format? It was always one of the best decks, but never head and shoulders above everything else. If it was unbanned and went back to how it was before, I don't see a problem with that.
    No, actually I don't think it deserved the ban in the first place. There were many ways to deal with that deck, and since it was creature-based virtually every deck could interact with the combo. I just don't see them unbanning it so soon after banning it. If they unbanned it they would basically never be allowed to reban it again without looking horribly stupid, so it's just easier to leave on there.
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  5. #985
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Twins meta penetration was never that high, they banned it simply to shake up the format before the PT. It was one of the top performers, but never too dominant.

    Was it ever taking over the format? It was always one of the best decks, but never head and shoulders above everything else. If it was unbanned and went back to how it was before, I don't see a problem with that.
    According to TCDecks:

    January, 2015 - Birthing Pod banned in Modern
    The Rock becomes top deck from January - March

    April, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 156, next closest was The Rock with 145
    May, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 93, next closest was The Rock with 85
    June, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 139, next closest was Jund with 100
    July, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 79
    August, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 78
    September, 2015 - Twin is 2nd deck with 57, Affinity was top deck with 63
    October, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 94, next closest was Jund with 82
    November, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 122, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 87
    December, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 60, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 38

    January, 2016 - Twin is banned and Eldrazi take over

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I think SfM was one of the first diversity killers in Legacy. It just gives blue shells too much of an ability to fight literally anything, and to do it pretty aggressively. Delver at least requires some deck building constraints, SfM lets you play a 4/4 lifelink on turn 3 every single game with the only constraint being you have to play a Batterskull in your deck, which is almost playable on its own. Throw in a Sword of F&F and your deck now takes on everything in the format that isn't combo or control. I think it would immediately become the best 2 cmc creature in the format and it would pretty quickly beat out midrange decks as the go to strategy since it is very easy to run counterspells alongside.

    I'd enjoy if they unbanned it, I like playing decks with it, but it is too potent a threat for the deck requirements.


    No, actually I don't think it deserved the ban in the first place. There were many ways to deal with that deck, and since it was creature-based virtually every deck could interact with the combo. I just don't see them unbanning it so soon after banning it. If they unbanned it they would basically never be allowed to reban it again without looking horribly stupid, so it's just easier to leave on there.
    Hm, convincing argument against SfM, fair enough!

    I agree with you on Twin too, it's an awkward position. It was so dumb to ban it in the first place :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    According to TCDecks:

    January, 2015 - Birthing Pod banned in Modern
    The Rock becomes top deck from January - March

    April, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 156, next closest was The Rock with 145
    May, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 93, next closest was The Rock with 85
    June, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 139, next closest was Jund with 100
    July, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 79
    August, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 78
    September, 2015 - Twin is 2nd deck with 57, Affinity was top deck with 63
    October, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 94, next closest was Jund with 82
    November, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 122, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 87
    December, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 60, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 38

    January, 2016 - Twin is banned and Eldrazi take over
    Fair enough to you too, I didn't look at the numbers clearly, just anecdotal from playing quite a lot of modern around that time. Though some of those margins with the second deck are close, it's hard to really say if it was 'dominating'.
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Fair enough to you too, I didn't look at the numbers clearly, just anecdotal from playing quite a lot of modern around that time. Though some of those margins with the second deck are close, it's hard to really say if it was 'dominating'.
    I was going to say we need to define dominating to discuss further.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I think SfM was one of the first diversity killers in Legacy. It just gives blue shells too much of an ability to fight literally anything, and to do it pretty aggressively. Delver at least requires some deck building constraints, SfM lets you play a 4/4 lifelink on turn 3 every single game with the only constraint being you have to play a Batterskull in your deck, which is almost playable on its own. Throw in a Sword of F&F and your deck now takes on everything in the format that isn't combo or control. I think it would immediately become the best 2 cmc creature in the format and it would pretty quickly beat out midrange decks as the go to strategy since it is very easy to run counterspells alongside.

    I'd enjoy if they unbanned it, I like playing decks with it, but it is too potent a threat for the deck requirements.


    No, actually I don't think it deserved the ban in the first place. There were many ways to deal with that deck, and since it was creature-based virtually every deck could interact with the combo. I just don't see them unbanning it so soon after banning it. If they unbanned it they would basically never be allowed to reban it again without looking horribly stupid, so it's just easier to leave on there.
    I agree on SFM. Yes KCommand is a card, but SFM makes cheap counters like Dispel and Stubborn Denial even BETTER. BSkull even provides your perfect enabler for Denial. I think SFM getting unbanned single-handedly raises the value of tempo-based blue/white cards. I think Burn as a deck disappears almost overnight.

    I also liked Twin in the format, even though I never played it myself. My dislike for Birthing Pod was much higher before that ban. Twin is the perfect combo deck for modern: instant-win but easily interacted with by establishing sound deckbuilding. I lost a bunch to twin, but I won a fair share against it too.
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  9. #989

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    According to TCDecks:

    January, 2015 - Birthing Pod banned in Modern
    The Rock becomes top deck from January - March

    April, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 156, next closest was The Rock with 145
    May, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 93, next closest was The Rock with 85
    June, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 139, next closest was Jund with 100
    July, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 79
    August, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 78
    September, 2015 - Twin is 2nd deck with 57, Affinity was top deck with 63
    October, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 94, next closest was Jund with 82
    November, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 122, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 87
    December, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 60, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 38

    January, 2016 - Twin is banned and Eldrazi take over
    So, Twin was pretty consistently a good deck, but never really a dominant one, not even keeping the top spot in one of those cases (if memory serves right, Miracles never lost the top spot after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were banned).

    It did rise up a bit towards the end, with a larger gap between it and the second place deck (up until that point it was usually close), but I think a lot of that was the fact Amulet Bloom had gained some popularity and Twin was one of the best decks at beating it.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    My money is on Jace being unbanned. I picked one up in a trade, and I already have a set of Bloodbraid Elf stashed away if that's the one that's unbanned. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see both come off at the same time, considering the history they share of off-setting each other.

    Any speculation on getting both BBE and Jace back? Or did my wake-and-bake influence me too much?
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see both come off at the same time, considering the history they share of off-setting each other.
    I'd say you found a good level.
    I hadn't considered both as a possibility, but you raise a good point about them being checks for each other.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I think the best argument for them is that neither actually win the game on the spot, not like Twin. Yes, both can be strong points of inevitability if you build your deck to establish it. I don't think people will play ramp spells/creatures to enable t3 BBE/Jace, its just better to play more powerful cards and naturally play them on t4 (generalization of course.) I think the format is fast enough to effectively deal with both the card advantage and threat of both cards. Honestly, BBE into KCommand is a lot scarier than Jace, but still not that scary, not when Storm can win faster, Tron destroys Jund, and Burn can easily outrace it. Just some further thoughts on it, here's hoping for some shakeup soon!
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I don't think JTMS would be particularly broken in Modern, but it seems like one of those safer if left out cards. The main reason is it costs so much that if they have to ban it people will be even more angry than usual.

    But in terms of power it seems fairly safe. JTMS has always suffered against creature swarm metas and Modern has a lot of that going on.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I agree with you about the cost vs. reward scenario (what if it gets banned again, and it's already $60 roughly, it will only go up to $100+ if it gets unbanned.) Regardless of whether its safe or not, those factors will likely keep it banned. Limited availability is also a significant part of it. I just reallllly want to play Jace in modern, lol.

    I actually think Jace would make UWx control a tier 1-2 deck. Not overpowered mind you, just really good. Ancestral Visions and Jace together make for a potent draw engine, which allows the terrible counterspells in the format to actually do what they need to: stall long enough to establish inevitability. Now your best play after suspending an Ancestral is what, t5 Supreme Verdict/Cryptic Command/Gideon variant? Those are already really good plays, possibly better than Jace depending on matchups.

    I think the scariest part is the miracle cards with Jace. Serum Visions isn't a very good way to set up miracles, or someone would do it already, but having the Brainstorm effect turns on Terminus and Entreat the Angels. It seems good, but not necessarily better than a t4 Grapeshot/Living End/double Death's Shadow + Stubborn Denial. I could be wrong and active Terminus in the format may be just way OP.
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