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    Modern Banned List

    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...g_Forward.html

    Todd Anderson's article today discusses his take on the Modern banned list in the wake of the PT. I already expressed my feelings over there; I don't think you have much room to comment on the metagame when you admit that you had it pegged completely wrong to begin with. But I thought I would get some opinions here. What do you guys think about the banned list? Do you think anything should come off? Do you think Cloudpost and Twin should be nerfed? Do you think it's too early to tell, or that the metagame will self-adjust and settle into a state of flux the way Legacy's meta does?
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    As someone who abandoned his SCG account long ago because the forums were pretty horrendous, you have me wishing I could log into them at work so I could tell the person how stupid this is. He's basically asking them to ban 12-post decks down, slow down combo via losing rite of flame, and then let the format turn into standard Pre-bannings of Jace and Stoneforge.

    I didn't want to play that Standard then, I didn't enjoy it when Legacy turned into LAWL BLADECONTROLALAWLALALAWL.... why on earth would I want to play that Format again now in Modern? No thank you. The format is fine as it is currently. Maybe control needs better tools to fight combo so that the format can try to do the whole Rock, paper, scissors thing... but honestly I think it's too early to make that call and they should leave the format alone to grow and define itself. THEN take action if action need be taken.

    tl;dr: Don't be a tool, I don't want to play another iteration of Caw-Blade.format
    Last edited by Sims; 09-08-2011 at 02:01 PM. Reason: holy terrible spelling batman!
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    It's mind boggling that anyone would be unaware enough to think that they're even considering taking Jace, SFM, or even Mental Misstep off the banned list after the damage the first two did to Standard, and all the complaints they're getting about the latter ruining Legacy (which I think is overstated personally, but then I thought the flip cards from Kamigawa were cool.)
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Unban Necro, then ban everything until Necro is good. Then Ban Necro. lol

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    This article is yet another example of some blue player whining about blue not dominating a format for once. He, like everyone else I've seen talk about bans lately, is completely jumping the gun. We need much more data before anything can be banned - the format has to settle into an actual metagame. Then, if combo still dominates, we can think of nerfing something/unbanning control cards.
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    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Not to mention they could print some strong combo hosers in the next set instead of messing with the ban list...

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar View Post
    This article is yet another example of some blue player whining about blue not dominating a format for once. He, like everyone else I've seen talk about bans lately, is completely jumping the gun. We need much more data before anything can be banned - the format has to settle into an actual metagame. Then, if combo still dominates, we can think of nerfing something/unbanning control cards.
    I think combo will continue to do well and that control will continue to be non-existent. Zoo has tools to beat combo and so does GreenPost, but combo can still fight back. Actually, what does the best job of beating up on combo is Jund. You take a relatively quick clock and back it up with Thoughtseize and Blightning. But Jund loses to Zoo because Putrid Leech and Thoughtseize aren't cards you want to play against Wild Nacatl and Lightning Bolt.

    Honestly though, even if they unbanned all of the blue cards on the list, control would still be dead in the water. The more of a stranglehold control puts on aggro and combo (and thus the less focus in sideboards on beating GreenPost), the more GreenPost would dominate. And honestly, despite the poor outing at the PT, GreenPost is still the best deck in the format. I would say that Splinter Twin beats it relatively consistently (which is why I felt Twin was the top deck going into Philly) but Persist and Zoo should beat Twin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Bands are done based on a decks power.
    Jund is putting up numbers, but it's only cuz most of the meta game is Jund...
    Affinity was the deck with the most numbers for day 2 at the GP. But by the end, was no where to be seen.
    Jund is popular cuz it sits well vrs most decks. So the average "end boss" good player can pick the deck up, and poop on noobs all day. Wile the noobs pick it up, and pick bad lines of play, and lose.
    Nothing will get band, DRS is good. Not broken.
    And any goyo deck is a pile of luck draws.
    Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)
    Visions will not get unband. 3 color blue good stuff decks (rwu geist example) that are all one for ones, bolt, helix, leak. Will now be able to auto win after it resolves. You can't fight a deck after they draw 3 cards on turn 5.
    Ponder- would break twin, shift, delver, storm. Basically all blue decks. Not happening.
    Same for preodain. If they unbanned it, the top decks will ALL be blue.

    They won't consider the hammer, until after PT. They will see how a meta of good players, takes modern. This will determine the meta for the next year-ish

  9. #9

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn View Post
    Unless they feel like stirring up the metagame before a PTQ-season I don't think they will touch the list this time.
    Actually, the Modern PTQ season is delayed this year. After the current Standard season (which ends in March), there will be a Sealed season, and THEN we move to Modern. As each PTQ season is about three months (as there's four of them per year now), I think the Modern PTQ season starts in like June or something. If they want to unban something and not do it shortly before a PTQ season, they either have to do it now or wait until late 2013.

    Quote Originally Posted by sublime love View Post
    Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)
    How is it way too good? Lingering Souls gives you tokens way faster. Let's compare...
    Turn 3: Bitterblossom gives you one token and you lose a life. Lingering Souls gives you two tokens.
    Turn 4: Bitterblossom gives you a second token and you have lost two life. Lingering Souls gives you four tokens. Note also that you can attack with one Bitterblossom token but two Lingering Souls tokens.
    Turn 5: Bitterblossom gives you a third token and you've lost three life, only two of which can attack. Lingering Souls has given you four tokens, all of which can attack.
    Turn 6: Bitterblossom gives you a fourth token and you've lost four life, only three of which can attack. Lingering Souls has given you four tokens, all of which can attack.
    Turn 7: Bitteblossom gives you a fifth token, FINALLY giving you more than Lingering Souls, though you've lost five life to do so. At this point you can attack with four Bitterblossom tokens, equal to four Lingering Souls tokens.
    Turn 8: At this point, Bitterblossom is actually stronger, letting you attack with five tokens versus Lingering Soul's four. However, you've lost 6 life and have had to wait until Turn 8 for this to happen.

    So Bitterblossom takes much longer to pay off AND requires you to lose life to work. And notice that in terms of later game topdecks, Lingering Souls can give you 4 tokens on the spot whereas Bitterblossom requires 5 turns (and 5 life) to do that.

    In a format where Lingering Souls exists, it seems very difficult to argue that Bitterblossom is "way too good." Now, to be fair, Bitterblossom does have an edge that Lingering Souls does not: Its power with Faeries. But is even that too powerful? A number of people have tried to test out possible new builds with Bitterblossom and have found them lacking compared to the other decks in the format. This is to say nothing of the cards recently printed that are quite powerful against Faeries. For example, the deck has real issues trying to beat Voice of Resurgence, and Abrupt Decay of course is a great way to smash Bitterblossom. You can't just claim it's "way too good"; you need a real argument for it that doesn't rely on it being allegedly too good in a format that had a quite different card pool than Modern.

    Visions will not get unband. 3 color blue good stuff decks (rwu geist example) that are all one for ones, bolt, helix, leak. Will now be able to auto win after it resolves. You can't fight a deck after they draw 3 cards on turn 5.
    All right. How about the inability to fight a deck after they win the game on turn 4? The fact that people somehow think that winning the game on turn 4 is A-OK but drawing three cards on turn 5 is too powerful baffles me. And, of course, Ancestral Vision is a do-nothing topdeck if drawn later in the game.

    Ponder- would break twin, shift, delver, storm. Basically all blue decks. Not happening.
    Storm, Scapeshift, and Delver could actually really use a boost right now, especially Storm. It would be rather degenerate in Twin decks, though.

    Same for preodain. If they unbanned it, the top decks will ALL be blue.
    Now this I disagree with. Preordain is good, but it's not in the same league as Ponder, and I'd say it would actually power up some decks that need a power boost (e.g. Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, and Storm). Its biggest issue is that Splinter Twin is already really great and would benefit from it, though not even close to the extent that Ponder would.

    Also, it's "ban" and "banned", not "band". A "band" is a group and an old confusing Magic mechanic, and has nothing to do with a card being banned.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    So Bitterblossom takes much longer to pay off AND requires you to lose life to work. And notice that in terms of later game topdecks, Lingering Souls can give you 4 tokens on the spot whereas Bitterblossom requires 5 turns (and 5 life) to do that.
    You need to consider all types of cost if you're going to do a flat out comparison like that. BB cost you 5 life and 5 turns vs Souls costing 0 life and 2 turns. But BB costs 1B while Souls costs you 3WB in that scenario. Given people are willing to pay 3 life to get an untapped shock of your choice on turn 1 in this format, mana can potentially be more valuable than life, so that 5 life required for Blossom to pay off may be worth less than the extra 2W depending on the deck. BB also leaves you open to cast business or counterspells on turns 3/4 whereas using Souls like that taps down your mana both those main phases. Mana cost and tempo matter just like life and turns. Notably, Lingering Souls is harder to cast in a deck that wants to play counterspells that cost 1UUU.

    Souls is definitely a better topdeck, and if just looking at BW tokens deck and no others, Souls is probably better overall for all its flexibility. There's a reason Souls get played more in Legacy even though both are legal. The thing is, BW tokens isn't why BB is banned.

    So why is BB banned? It's of type "Faerie" and makes things of type "Faerie". Faerie decks don't care about spirit tokens. And you only have to tap out mainphase of turn 2 to play it and then you never have to commit mainphase mana again, which is amazing for a UB control deck. It alone lets you Spellstutter @ 2, 1U for Spell Snare+Mental Misstep and a 1/1 flying body. Including the tokens, you can Spellstutter @ infinity, which is pretty amazing. The tokens also benefit from one of the best lords ever printed (Flash +shroud seems good) and kind of kill you while the Faerie player spends the next 5 turns countering everything you try to do.

    Ancestral Visions is mediocre in general, but it's amazing in a deck that wants to go T1 Visions, T2 Blossom, T3 counter stuff, T4 counter stuff + draw, T5 Ancestral recall? cool, counter more stuff.

  11. #11

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Souls is definitely a better topdeck, and if just looking at BW tokens deck and no others, Souls is probably better overall for all its flexibility. There's a reason Souls get played more in Legacy even though both are legal. The thing is, BW tokens isn't why BB is banned.
    Clearly. However, that was only part of my message, showing how, for the decks that don't care about the creature types, Lingering Souls is just way more powerful.

    So why is BB banned? It's of type "Faerie" and makes things of type "Faerie". Faerie decks don't care about spirit tokens. And you only have to tap out mainphase of turn 2 to play it and then you never have to commit mainphase mana again, which is amazing for a UB control deck. It alone lets you Spellstutter @ 2, 1U for Spell Snare+Mental Misstep and a 1/1 flying body. Including the tokens, you can Spellstutter @ infinity, which is pretty amazing. The tokens also benefit from one of the best lords ever printed (Flash +shroud seems good) and kind of kill you while the Faerie player spends the next 5 turns countering everything you try to do.
    But here's the thing. That's a bit powerful. You know what else is powerful? The rest of the format. Turn 3 Karn Liberated. The crazy starts Affinity can pull off. Jund's sheer efficiency (and the occasional turn 2 Liliana). Birthing Pod's ability to tutor up answers or just win the game on the spot while being a decent beatdown deck even if it doesn't get the Pod. Splinter Twin's ability to be an effective tempo deck that can also pull out an instant win out of nowhere. Infect's potential turn 2 wins. Faeries with Bitterblossom is certainly good, but is it actually better than the other things in the format, or even equal to them?

    Actually test out "fully-powered" Faeries (that is, with Bitterblossom and Ancestral Vision) against the current decks in Modern and you might be very surprised by how not overpowered it tends to actually be. There are entire decks or powerful cards it never had to deal with in Extended that are very effective against it.

    Ancestral Visions is mediocre in general, but it's amazing in a deck that wants to go T1 Visions, T2 Blossom, T3 counter stuff, T4 counter stuff + draw, T5 Ancestral recall? cool, counter more stuff.
    This Just In: Decks are powerful when they get the nut draws and curve out perfectly.

    Regardless, the question is not whether it would be safe to unban. It's whether or not they will unban them. I think Bitterblossom is probably the most likely unban because it goes into none of the top decks and was banned on simple speculation rather than concrete data showing it was overpowered in Modern. I don't think they're likely to simultaneously unleash Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom, though.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    This Just In: Decks are powerful when they get the nut draws and curve out perfectly.

    Regardless, the question is not whether it would be safe to unban. It's whether or not they will unban them. I think Bitterblossom is probably the most likely unban because it goes into none of the top decks and was banned on simple speculation rather than concrete data showing it was overpowered in Modern. I don't think they're likely to simultaneously unleash Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom, though.
    If you have to redefine "the nut draws" to mean having 1 Ancestral Visions and 1 Bitterblossom in their starting 8 I think you're arguing on the side of BB being too strong. Remand, Mana Leak, Condescend, and Spellstutter provide tons of ways to counter stuff in a deck running BB, and that's not even digging deeper into what counterspells could be played in modern (Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, etc.). BB isn't better than Lingering Souls because of token generation, it's better because it keeps your mana much freer than any other threat generator. It's like why people play Goyf in blue decks. Also, Lingering souls dies to a pyroclasm whereas BB really doesn't.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Actually, the Modern PTQ season is delayed this year. After the current Standard season (which ends in March), there will be a Sealed season, and THEN we move to Modern. As each PTQ season is about three months (as there's four of them per year now), I think the Modern PTQ season starts in like June or something. If they want to unban something and not do it shortly before a PTQ season, they either have to do it now or wait until late 2013.
    I know PTQ Season is starting Mid-2014, but if they change the banlist now, the metagame is most likely still not settled with the start of the season. That's why I think they will wait for the new set's impact on Modern and PT's metagame, before changing the list again.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Oh man. What will people do if the internet is unable to tell them what deck to play!
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Oh man. What will people do if the internet is unable to tell them what deck to play!
    It's not about getting netdeckers to think about their own decks, you cannot do that by just changing the banlist slightly. It's about having a stable format for MTG's premier events.

  16. #16

    Re: Modern Banned List

    It's still possible though. And they totally ignore it.
    Thing is, a burn/affinity deck can consistently fling 20 damage at your face by turn 4 while combo is so fragile and often skillintensive that it's way less consistent. Sometimes it feels like they are trying to dumb down the game.

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  17. #17

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Let me start off by saying that I think that Affinity and Burn decks are just fine to run and are not anywhere near needing a ban.

    I think that:
    1) The T4 rule is a bad rule that limits the types of cards that can be printed
    2) There are several cards that could safely come off the ban list that would allow for a larger variety of decks in the format without making broken decks out there. I think Preordain should be safe to come off. I don't know why it was banned in the first place.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by JPoJohnson View Post
    I think Preordain should be safe to come off. I don't know why it was banned in the first place.
    Reason is in the same link I just posted.

    Again, everything which kills Turn 4 is fine, according to Wizard.

  19. #19

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn View Post
    Reason is in the same link I just posted.

    Again, everything which kills Turn 4 is fine, according to Wizard.
    Yes and since then Seething Song was banned. I think its fine for it to come off now. The meta and format have evolved as well as new cards have been released such as Counterflux.
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  20. #20

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by JPoJohnson View Post
    Yes and since then Seething Song was banned. I think its fine for it to come off now. The meta and format have evolved as well as new cards have been released such as Counterflux.
    Counterflux was in the format at the time of the Seething Song ban.

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