Page 2 of 50 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 994

Thread: Modern Banned List

  1. #21
    Member

    Join Date

    Jul 2009
    Location

    Spain
    Posts

    5

    Re: Modern Banned List

    They'll surely nerf combo decks taking into account what they said: "we are going to allow turn-four combination decks, but not decks that consistently win the game on turn three" (IMO too aggresive rule because even some aggro decks break it). On the other hand nerfing combo will surely make the 12Post vs Control issue harder to resolve.

    So, at first I was more in favor of just nerfing 12post (emrakul f.e.) but now I'm more about killing the deck. Emrakul is very hard for Control (I could even agree that it's too much inevitable) but I don't think that it's too much logical to be surprised about autolosing to a casted card of 15 mana (Other theme is Emrakul in combination with cards that break that cost barrier like Goryo's Vengeance). Then I think that the solution is more about killing the engine that it's not other than Cloudpost.

    I mean that if not Emrakul other strong option against Control should be there. Such a big mana advantage should be enough to beat Control, otherwise I'd found it very rare. Maybe you can currently palliate the visible results of an unfair mana resource (banning Emrakul) and in future editions return to the same problem because you haven't atacked the root (Cloudpost).

    But my problem is that I'm not entirely sure that 12post mana advantage is unfair enough or that Emrakul is fair enough even withouth 12post. What I can have clear is that the combination is veeeery hard . For example maybe now it's all ok with Cloudpost out and in a year we miss it because it was a nice way to regulate a heavy control metagame.

    I just hope that wotc knows the right move.

  2. #22
    Don't ping the hydra
    DrJones's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2007
    Location

    Spain
    Posts

    107,496

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Be it right or wrong, it will involve a kick in the nuts of some section of the audience.
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  3. #23
    Jack of All Things Trill
    KevinTrudeau's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2010
    Location

    Minneapolis
    Posts

    328

    Re: Modern Banned List

    By comparing the combo decks in Modern to Extended Tinker decks and propsing to ban Inkmoth Nexus, Mr. Anderson has certainly lost me as a reader forevermore. I don't mean to offend him in any way, but it makes me kind of upset when I see articles like that get published on large websites, yet see more intelligent propositions concerning Modern get relegated to forum posts.
    Find enlightenment for just $29.99!

  4. #24
    The Voice of Reason
    JACO's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2004
    Location

    Chicago
    Posts

    448

    Re: Modern Banned List

    First of all, this article sucked. Yeah, let's take a new format with a huge ban list and add like 8 more cards to it. Great idea.

    Second:
    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey View Post
    I think combo will continue to do well and that control will continue to be non-existent. Zoo has tools to beat combo and so does GreenPost, but combo can still fight back. Actually, what does the best job of beating up on combo is Jund. You take a relatively quick clock and back it up with Thoughtseize and Blightning. But Jund loses to Zoo because Putrid Leech and Thoughtseize aren't cards you want to play against Wild Nacatl and Lightning Bolt.

    Honestly though, even if they unbanned all of the blue cards on the list, control would still be dead in the water. The more of a stranglehold control puts on aggro and combo (and thus the less focus in sideboards on beating GreenPost), the more GreenPost would dominate. And honestly, despite the poor outing at the PT, GreenPost is still the best deck in the format. I would say that Splinter Twin beats it relatively consistently (which is why I felt Twin was the top deck going into Philly) but Persist and Zoo should beat Twin.
    How do you come to the conclusion that GreenPost is still the best deck in the format? The 4C Zoo list can beat it (which is why LSV, Owen, Wrapter, and a ton of other people did well with Zoo in a field of 20% 12-Post), and it gets absolutely crushed by Splinter Twin, Blue Poison, and GrapeshotSwath. Splinter Twin is by far the best deck in the format, at least until people are heavily metagamed against it. Also, Zoo and Persist should not beat Twin with any consistency, and do not beat Twin with any consistency. The matchup comes down to mana bottlenecks and answers, and Zoo doesn't have nearly enough answers to reliably beat Twin, which can and often does pack anything from Dispel to Pact of Negation to Disrupting Shoal.
    Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.

  5. #25
    (' ' '\( 0 ,o)/''')
    TheInfamousBearAssassin's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2004
    Location

    Northern Virginia
    Posts

    6,792

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Over the long term it is nearly impossible for control to be non-existent in a format. Eventually the number of decks will settle down to where comprehensive strategies can be taken against the field. And if there's a deck that can't be answered effectively something in it will eventually be banned.

  6. #26
    cant play as much as he wants

    Join Date

    Jun 2010
    Posts

    322

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Blazing Infect, even though it is a little inconsisten, also beats 12post and Splinter Twin relatively easy.
    Zoo is there to hold the format together.

    Even though i agree that Control is somehow missing (in a pure form), BUT never forget how young this format is. Control adepts to what it has to face, and working out a good control plan might take a little more effort than saying "Well, i'll take Nacatl, Goofy and some burn".
    Dont get me wrong, im not ranting on Zoo, thats not my point, my point is that it just might take some more techs to be discovered to get a good control Pile up and running.

    Give the format some time....

  7. #27
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2004
    Location

    Madison, WI
    Posts

    1,652

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by JACO View Post
    First of all, this article sucked. Yeah, let's take a new format with a huge ban list and add like 8 more cards to it. Great idea.

    Second:How do you come to the conclusion that GreenPost is still the best deck in the format? The 4C Zoo list can beat it (which is why LSV, Owen, Wrapter, and a ton of other people did well with Zoo in a field of 20% 12-Post), and it gets absolutely crushed by Splinter Twin, Blue Poison, and GrapeshotSwath. Splinter Twin is by far the best deck in the format, at least until people are heavily metagamed against it. Also, Zoo and Persist should not beat Twin with any consistency, and do not beat Twin with any consistency. The matchup comes down to mana bottlenecks and answers, and Zoo doesn't have nearly enough answers to reliably beat Twin, which can and often does pack anything from Dispel to Pact of Negation to Disrupting Shoal.
    Because the decklists at the PT were fucking jokes. The Zoo decklist wasn't even a Modern decklist, it's an old Extended Zoo. Bant Charm was in the deck because it answered both Marit Lage tokens and Thopter Foundry.

    The 12Post lists that were played by and large sucked. They gave up their game against aggro in an attempt to beat combo by racing it with a deck that could not consistently race combo. I've been having the discussion in the GreenPost thread about Amulet of Vigor and Through the Breach. The best example I could give was that running Amulet of Vigor to race combo is akin to Deadguy (orB/W stoneblade, whatever you want to call it) running Ritual, Negator and Flesh Reaver to try and race storm. Not only does it not work, it fucks your aggro matchup. Sure, your deck is faster, but it just plain sucks.

    The Persist lists were all minor variations of the MTGO version from the first DE which is fine in an all aggro field but is almost completely reliant on getting 1 of 4 Birthing Pods and packs 0 disruption - a sin of epic proportions in a combo-heavy environment. The shell of the deck is pretty small, green gives you 4 perfectly workable tutors for every piece of the combo (GSZ, Pod, Chord and Fauna Shaman) and decent construction leaves you with half a dozen to a dozen flex spots, MOST of which should be dedicated to screwing other combo decks in the chocolate alley because let's be honest, you're still faster than 12Post and Kitchen Finks go a long freaking way against Zoo.

    Even the Splinter Twin deck and the other U/R combo decks that did well were poorly built. Oh, I won't say there weren't any card choices that I didn't consider or that I thought well of, there were definitely some good inclusions out there. But there is no excuse for not having 4xSpell Pierce in the 60 in the main. It wins more games than Pact and Shoal combined.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Twin. I think it's a tier 1 deck. And I think that it beats 12Post consistently (although it should not beat 12Post as badly as it did in the PT, because 12Post should not be constructed as poorly as it was), which is why I flat out stated that it should win the PT. And I don't see Splinter Twin being marginalized, even if it faces a ton of hate, because it's consistent and fairly resilient. You've got a small shell with lots of room for customization. It's the Trix of our time. But Persist has an edge, especially the way the Twin decks at the PT were constructed. You've got Pact and Shoal. I've got Thoughtseize and Sculler. We both win turn 4-5 every game (although I can technically win turn 3 occasionally and you win turn 4 a little more consistently). My protection can not only serve to remove any threats to my combo but also to slow yours down. While Shoal can be used to slow my combo down, Pact certainly cannot. And you don't get to see what parts of my combo I have backup on. You're stopping spells blind while I'm getting to see your hand.

    Edit: As far as Zoo vs. Twin... This is really one of those matchups where it depends on who wants to spend more space on hate. Twin has MD answers for a lot of Zoo's MD answers. Exarch is difficult to burn, Kiki gets around Teeg, Spellskite can stop a Pridemage from eating Splinter Twin, etc. But it's a matter of who has the right answers. If you've got Exarch to get around Bolt but have to use Kiki to get around Teeg, you haven't actually gotten around Bolt. So it's who draws what. What I think puts Zoo over the top in this matchup is Burning Tree Shaman. Everyone that researched the format knew that the 3 decks you'd have to beat to do well were 12Post, Twin and Zoo. 12Post because it's good and popular, Zoo because it's incredibly popular and Twin because it's incredibly good. So not having BTS in board for a Zoo deck going in is just an example of poor research. With BTS on the board, going lethal with Exarch is impossible. With Pestermite, it'll cost you 10 life. That's like cracking a double Fireblast on someone in response to them casting Ad Nauseam. Good luck with that. You can't just burn it, it takes two burn spells. The poorly constructed Twin decks at the PT by and large weren't running bounce, they just ran a full playset of Firespouts with maybe 1-2 Dismember. Yeah, U/R combo can dig, but Zoo isn't exactly a deck that gives you all day to search for answers. You find an answer to BTS in a turn, maybe two, or you lose. And that's assuming you managed to Firespout and wipe the rest of their board.

    So yes, Zoo does beat Twin. Can Twin board to answer BTS? Sure. And if they're smart, the next go around, they'll have Gigadrowse in their board too. But there's only so much room and again, who draws what answers at what time? I think Zoo's got a definitive edge in the matchup as things that it naturally runs against everything are good against Twin whereas Twin has to deliberately construct a main with Zoo in mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  8. #28

    Re: Modern Banned List

    tl;dr

    If they do decide to ban cards they should at least make a PA about it. I'd hate to buy x4 Blazing Shoals at 7 dollars each just to watch them go down to 50 cent bin rares.

  9. #29
    lolspam
    Amon Amarth's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2006
    Location

    Oregon
    Posts

    1,071

    Re: Modern Banned List

    I can't imagine them banning anything from the Infect deck. I've never played but just by eyeballing it the deck looks a really fragile pile.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  10. #30

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    tl;dr

    If they do decide to ban cards they should at least make a PA about it. I'd hate to buy x4 Blazing Shoals at 7 dollars each just to watch them go down to 50 cent bin rares.
    That's the risk inherent in price speculation/'investing' in cards in a fledgling(currently crappy) format as volatile as Modern.

  11. #31
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    2,346

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sims View Post
    If people are freaking out about Twin I would LOVE to see Zoo decks start boarding in shit like Root Maze to slow the combo down and then pummel them with removal while their lands are coming into play tapped and they have a harder time countering. Shit, i'd love to see people playing Root Maze, period.

    Edit: Actually, it would probably fit better in Green Post... 8 of theirl ands come into play tapped anyways, minor modifications to the deck could easily make Root Maze a viable speedbump against combo that doesn't hinder post as badly.
    Root Maze + Amulet of Vigor Amulet should probably see play in 12-post ANYWAYS, probably speeding up their fundamental turn by a full turn.

    I think the right move is to unban Bitterblossom. That would give a solid option to fighting combo decks. Faeries could handle combo just fine, and the good aggro in the format (RDW and Zoo) can fight Faeries just fine, making Volcanic Fallout show up in sideboards again. I would really love to be playing Mistbind Clique in a format again, but it's just too slow against 12-post. Bitterblossom would put a lot of pressure on the 12-post decks by allowing you to play Spellstutter Sprite and other permission spells to stop the mana-ramping. Sprite is good against Explorer's Map anyways. I'd be maxing out on Ghost Quarters (using them to fix my own mana when not destroying Locuses instead of life-draining fetches)
    Approaching transcendence
    I see clarity through deprivation

    -Suffocation-

  12. #32

    Re: Modern Banned List

    I really dont think they should change anything about the banned list.. for now.
    Really why would u even consider taking Jace,SFM,MM or visions off. They are way too overpowered in current modern format.
    About combo dominating modern atm,thats just ignorant.There are plenty of ways to stop combo,atleast if people try and not just copy paste the PT decklists.The format still needs to grow and I'm sure some people will come up with other decks aswell.
    I've been playing Jund alot in modern with thoughtseize/confi/goyf/blightning/bloodbraid and plenty of removal and extra discard effects.It tears up all the current 'top' combo decks. Why almost nobody plays that deck I dont know,but thoughtseize is sooo good atm.

  13. #33
    (previously Metalwalker)
    GGoober's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2008
    Location

    Houston, TX
    Posts

    1,674

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Jace is not overpowered in Modern. Tapping out for a Jace without 1U open for Remand/Mana Leak is asking Jace to die. There is no FoW/Daze to power out Jace earlier. This is a huge difference for Modern v.s. Legacy. MM/SFM are definitely going to be powerful if unbanned, but I disagree Jace will be too big of an issue. More people will play it because Jace is good, not because he's good in the format. And since people like trending to the flavor deck of the month, more people will keep playing Jace.

    Also, Blood Braid Elf owns Jace all day, thank god no one plays BBE in Legacy :P (Once again the format determines which cards are powerful/viable). Jace is not a bad card in Modern, he's just not the most powerful ones, when you put him alongside with Goyf, Nacatl, Rite of Flame (yes Dark Ritual is still one of the most bonker spells in Eternal format, and Rite of flame has proved it :D)
    Decks that I care about:
    Steel Stompy
    UWx Landstill
    Dreadstalker
    DDFT (10% practice)

    Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

  14. #34
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2004
    Location

    Clifton Park, NY
    Posts

    2,816

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalwalker View Post
    Jace is not overpowered in Modern. Tapping out for a Jace without 1U open for Remand/Mana Leak is asking Jace to die. There is no FoW/Daze to power out Jace earlier.
    Didn't seem to bother standard when he was legal. They'd throw him out all day and he was STILL bonkers.
    Team Albany: What's Legacy?

    You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.

  15. #35
    Joe Cool Above All
    HSCK's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Posts

    645

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by rancOr_ View Post
    I really dont think they should change anything about the banned list.. for now.
    Really why would u even consider taking Jace,SFM,MM or visions off. They are way too overpowered in current modern format.
    About combo dominating modern atm,thats just ignorant.There are plenty of ways to stop combo,atleast if people try and not just copy paste the PT decklists.The format still needs to grow and I'm sure some people will come up with other decks aswell.
    I've been playing Jund alot in modern with thoughtseize/confi/goyf/blightning/bloodbraid and plenty of removal and extra discard effects.It tears up all the current 'top' combo decks. Why almost nobody plays that deck I dont know,but thoughtseize is sooo good atm.
    Because topdecking and winning is better than playing Jund and getting destroyed by Post, Zoo, and random combo decks. If you're casting BBE you're either in the driver's seat or you've lost already.

  16. #36

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Wizards are not stupid to ban anything after only 1 tournament.they will wait because decks can adapt.
    combo can be hated out easily with many ways.
    I guess they can unban cards so they can make a diverse format and not another creature(goyf)
    format like type2.Modern is the eternal format for the masses-the legacy with low cost.it should have combo.If they oblitarate combo a lot of people will get out of the format unwilling to play another standard...

  17. #37
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    2,346

    Re: Modern Banned List

    I re-read the article, and I like it even LESS now (not that i liked it before...)

    Unbanning Jace would be somewhat of a mistake, I think. There is already speculation about Disrupting Shoal, and now a deck can concievably use Preordain/Ponder, Mana Leak, Thirst for Knowledge, Jace TM...and have Force of Will available.

    I"m trying to make BUG control work in Modern, but I'm having a hard time because of the lack of *good* hard counters. Familiar's Ruse and Deprive are both 'meh' in my opinion, and trying to push Cryptic Command in a 3 or 4 color deck seems too difficult (at least to me.) I have the lands to make it work, but I don't really want to go there. I may HAVE to, but I'd rather just have a decent 2 mana hard counter.

    I don't say bring back Force of Will...to hell with Cancel, bring back Counterspell!!!
    Approaching transcendence
    I see clarity through deprivation

    -Suffocation-

  18. #38
    I'm Jewish!
    TheDarkshineKnight's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2006
    Location

    Arlington, Virginia
    Posts

    438

    Re: Modern Banned List

    The answer is to push the format back to Masques since it gives blue access to Counterspell, Daze, Standstill, Brainstorm, and more. The more love for blue there is, the harder a time combo's going to have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Now, how can you be sure it's rape when there's no way to tell if a barnacle is consenting or not? For all we know it was actually two first time lesbian barnacles who signed a release for the footage to be used in the newest installment of Barnacles Gone Wild: Seafoam Splash.

  19. #39
    Dodge this.
    umbowta's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2005
    Location

    Westland, Michigan
    Posts

    797

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight View Post
    The answer is to push the format back to Masques since it gives blue access to Counterspell, Daze, Standstill, Brainstorm, and more. The more love for blue there is, the harder a time combo's going to have.
    ...because clearly Brainstorm and Daze would suck for Splinter Twin?

    I mean, tempo control decks would love it too but I think that's more harm than good.
    When other people do not assert themselves, they may still have something to be proud of, something that they believe is unrivalled, but it is just that they have not got the same vulgarity of throwing their weight about and imposing themselves and their beliefs on other people. - Dunduzu Kalui Chisiza

    If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo

  20. #40
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    2,346

    Re: Modern Banned List

    I agree with you there...I just want a reprint of Counterspell (or some other functional 2-mana hard counter.) I'm saying the semi-playable ones are conditional (Deprive, Familiar's Ruse). Remand works fine as long as you have a way to actually deal with the card after it actually does resolve (and it most likely will.)

    Going back to Masques would be too much like 'legacy lite'...as degenerate as the combo-heavy format is right now, at least it has it's own identity.
    Approaching transcendence
    I see clarity through deprivation

    -Suffocation-

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)