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Thread: Modern Banned List

  1. #41
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by umbowta View Post
    ...because clearly Brainstorm and Daze would suck for Splinter Twin?

    I mean, tempo control decks would love it too but I think that's more harm than good.
    Brainstorm would be significantly worse than Ponder and Preordain in Splinter Twin. The deck runs, at most, 4 shuffle effects (not including Ponder which is not all that fantastic after a Brainstorm) and is concerned primarily with how deep it can dig to go off on turn 4 every game. Minor sculpting of its hand is irrelevant.

    This is the thing. People look at cards and go "man, this card is good in x, so it must be good in everything!" When there was discussion of where the format should start, I heard all kinds of people saying things like: 'OMG, Masques would mean Dark Ritual, that would have to immediately go on the banned list!' Except it wouldn't be all that good in combo. Without LED to activate IT consistently, Tendrils decks really wouldn't be much good. You're either packing 4xAd Nauseam (very painful in a format with no 0 mana accelerants) or some other half-ass tutor. But people don't *think* about how cards interact, they just make snap judgements. That's why the boys at Wizards did such a shitty job with the banned list in the first place.

    I happen to agree with Darkshine that Masques should've been the cutoff for the format. Daze and Foil would go a long way towards curbing combo. Combo decks, by nature, contain less compact win-cons than control decks. A significant portion of the deck is going to be devoted to the win-con and the engine, whereas control does not need to allot as much space to winning. This means control can run more counters. If the counters in the format weren't all piss-poor, that might actually make control viable.

    Disrupting Shoal is the closest thing to Force that the format has, but it's an absolute bear to construct around and requires you to hold cards you would otherwise want to cast in order to balance the CMCs in your hand. Foil, while more card disadvantage (and so thus also on the cusp of unplayability) is an unconditional counter. Good luck using Disrupting Shoal on the Blazing Shoal that just turned that Blighted Agent into BSC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Brainstorm would force/allow you to run more than 2 colors/4 shuffling effects. It would be amazing in modern, don't kid yourself.

    Dark ritual might also be decent, depending if you can make a (non combo) list that wants to use it.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammit67 View Post
    Brainstorm would force/allow you to run more than 2 colors/4 shuffling effects. It would be amazing in modern, don't kid yourself.

    Dark ritual might also be decent, depending if you can make a (non combo) list that wants to use it.
    It would not be amazing in Splinter Twin. It might be a good card in Modern, but I was talking specifically about someone saying Twin would want it. Twin wouldn't want it.

    I think that ritual would excel in a disruptive black aggro deck. There's no Hymn to Tourach, but you've still got Thoughtseize and Sculler and going back to Masques would give you Vindicate as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Splinter twin would want it because it is probably the best filter spell ever printed. There is no reason why they couldn't add more shuffle effects to better support this.

    What I hear is analogous to "AnT doesn't want mind's desire, what do you cut to make it useful". Well no kidding, the deck is not built to abuse mind's desire, since it is not an option. If it was however, you can be sure as hell the archetype would use it. It isn't a simple -4 bullshit, +4 brainstorm. You have to rearrange more of the deck, but ultimately I think it would be worth it.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    Brainstorm... bad in combo... all Blue combo decks in Legacy play Brainstorm...

    SpikeyMikey just do us all a favor and shut the hell up dude. Brainstorm would send combo decks over the roof. Ascension runs 8 fetch lands, hell most Splinter Twin runs 8 fetchlands.

    Brainstorm being significantly worse than Ponder or Preo. Pffft, stop playing Magic.
    There's no need to attack people, yo. And just beacuse legacy combo wants it does not necessitate modern to want it.

    But they do.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammit67 View Post
    Splinter twin would want it because it is probably the best filter spell ever printed. There is no reason why they couldn't add more shuffle effects to better support this.

    What I hear is analogous to "AnT doesn't want mind's desire, what do you cut to make it useful". Well no kidding, the deck is not built to abuse mind's desire, since it is not an option. If it was however, you can be sure as hell the archetype would use it. It isn't a simple -4 bullshit, +4 brainstorm. You have to rearrange more of the deck, but ultimately I think it would be worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey View Post
    Brainstorm would be significantly worse than Ponder and Preordain in Splinter Twin. The deck runs, at most, 4 shuffle effects (not including Ponder which is not all that fantastic after a Brainstorm) and is concerned primarily with how deep it can dig to go off on turn 4 every game. Minor sculpting of its hand is irrelevant.
    There are two situations where Brainstorm is useful. One, when you want to sculpt your hand over the course of a long game. Brainstorm lets you turn dead draws into more useful draws and eke out incremental advantage through card quality. Two, when you have a lot of situational or inconsistent cards and need to quickly assemble a winning hand. In Legacy, there's a third time, which is when you absolutely need to Counterbalance something and don't have the proper casting cost in the top 3. But only the first 2 apply in Modern, as Sensei's Divining Top is banned and Counterbalance therefore sees 0 play.

    Consistent decks do not need or want Brainstorm. If your deck has multiple redundancies and does the same thing every game, Brainstorm is subpar. See Legacy Merfolk, which doesn't want to redesign itself around Brainstorm. In fact, even when it's splashing a color and could run enough fetches to support Brainstorm, it still doesn't want the card. Because it's not sculpting for the late game and it's not looking for a game ending turn 1 or 2 play. It's consistent, redundant, and looking to end the game at an early aggro pace, not a storm combo pace.

    As I said before, Splinter Twin doesn't need minor hand sculpting, and that's the advantage of Brainstorm over Ponder (instant vs. sorcery not withstanding). Ponder digs a card deeper (and has a built in shuffle for when you don't naturally have one) and Brainstorm lets you exchange extraneous cards in hand for potentially useful cards. But in Twin, you're running equal parts of combo piece a, combo piece b and free/cheap counterspells to force the combo through.

    To be honest, it barely needs any dig at all. Say you're running a 6/6 split of blue and red pieces. In almost 30% of your games, you're going to naturally have both pieces in your opening grip. By turn 4, that number rises to just under half your games (49.27%). That's your chance to naturally draw the combo by turn 4. If you're running the full 8 of each piece (which most people don't, as it's generally overkill), you're looking at the combo in hand 42% of the time on your opening 7 and 65% of the time by turn 4. Most of the highly placing Twin decks ran a 7/6 split of blue/red. That works out to natural draw rates of 32.5% and 53%, opening and turn 4. Add a single Ponder into that and your numbers rise to 61% by turn 4. Brainstorm gives you 58.74% if you have the shuffle effect and 55.7% if you don't.

    But like I said before people don't want to actually *think* about construction. It's much easier just to parrot what "everyone knows". All blue combo decks in Legacy play Brainstorm. And it's restricted in Vintage. But when it almost never saw play back in Ice Ages and saw very little play when it was in Standard during Masques (Counter-Rebels ran it, that was the only major deck to use it). Saying that card x is good in format z because it's good in format y is pointless. Mystic Remora is great in Vintage and shit in Legacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
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  7. #47
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey View Post
    Consistent decks do not need or want Brainstorm. If your deck has multiple redundancies and does the same thing every game, Brainstorm is subpar. See Legacy Merfolk, which doesn't want to redesign itself around Brainstorm. In fact, even when it's splashing a color and could run enough fetches to support Brainstorm, it still doesn't want the card. Because it's not sculpting for the late game and it's not looking for a game ending turn 1 or 2 play. It's consistent, redundant, and looking to end the game at an early aggro pace, not a storm combo pace.
    But the deck doesn't consider all of its pieces equal. There is nothing worse than hitting a second red piece. Merfolk doesn't run the card because it wants to clock the opponent, has silvergill adept to avoid its clunkier draws, needs to keep a higher threat density, and the second force of will might be just as good as the first. It doesn't care if it draws 3 LoA in a row, and so it doesn't need to find ways not to have that happen. Just because you are redundant in your card's roles does not mean you cannot benefit from brainstorm.
    In short, Merfolk doesn't want the card for reasons other than the deck is redundant. A good deck can never be consistent enough. Once you have a good angle on the meta, the focus must be staying consistent in spite of the field, a problem with staxx and dragon stompy.
    As I said before, Splinter Twin doesn't need minor hand sculpting, and that's the advantage of Brainstorm over Ponder (instant vs. sorcery not withstanding). Ponder digs a card deeper (and has a built in shuffle for when you don't naturally have one) and Brainstorm lets you exchange extraneous cards in hand for potentially useful cards. But in Twin, you're running equal parts of combo piece a, combo piece b and free/cheap counterspells to force the combo through.
    Keep ponder, it is a great card. If anything would be cut for brainstorm, I'd consider preordain/sleight of hand at the top of the list (http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazin...daily/deck/792). When your mainboard looks like that, you certainly have some cards that you had ought to find when you need them, and some that aren't always useful. Your counterspells/protection get much better when you can push them through because you have the mana up, instead of cantripping. Suddenly, you can remand from turn 2, and still filter your deck if need be. What if you hit your pestermite? Heck, flash it in and combo off during your main instead of waiting.
    The point is, what we have seen of the format is a bunch of decks that absolutely maximize their mana every turn yet still play counterspells. These counters aren't free, and you have to choose between finding the cards you need and protecting your ass. Brainstorm does this.
    To be honest, it barely needs any dig at all. Say you're running a 6/6 split of blue and red pieces. In almost 30% of your games, you're going to naturally have both pieces in your opening grip. By turn 4, that number rises to just under half your games (49.27%). That's your chance to naturally draw the combo by turn 4. If you're running the full 8 of each piece (which most people don't, as it's generally overkill), you're looking at the combo in hand 42% of the time on your opening 7 and 65% of the time by turn 4. Most of the highly placing Twin decks ran a 7/6 split of blue/red. That works out to natural draw rates of 32.5% and 53%, opening and turn 4. Add a single Ponder into that and your numbers rise to 61% by turn 4. Brainstorm gives you 58.74% if you have the shuffle effect and 55.7% if you don't.
    You may barely need to dig to find your combo pieces individually. The same is NOT true about your protection suite. I think it is a little pointless for me to bring up times when you hit your red pieces without your blue or what have you when you need bolt/spout and not remand. Rather, what about postboard?
    Your opponent has some hate for you, and you them. Any extra pieces you draw, including extraneous lands, can become protection or hate. Any card you didn't ship out that is less than stellar (but you couldn't board in enough to take it out), becomes any card in your top 3. You are already running the 7 fetches, make them work for you.
    But like I said before people don't want to actually *think* about construction. It's much easier just to parrot what "everyone knows". All blue combo decks in Legacy play Brainstorm. And it's restricted in Vintage. But when it almost never saw play back in Ice Ages and saw very little play when it was in Standard during Masques (Counter-Rebels ran it, that was the only major deck to use it). Saying that card x is good in format z because it's good in format y is pointless. Mystic Remora is great in Vintage and shit in Legacy.
    It doesn't matter whether or not Legacy decks play it or have played it. Brainstorm, combined with fetches, makes your deck very consistent. Not just in finding your combo pieces, but protecting them as well.
    Their are no wrong threats, only wrong answers, yes? Brainstorm ensures that you can get the right answers, at the cost of shuffling away your wrong ones. Hell, the flavor text for Brainstorm might as well be the number for your nearest RadioShack.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Merfolk doesn't consider all its pieces equal either. Force of Will =/= Aether Vial =/= Lord of Atlantis. Drawing a 3rd Aether Vial is certainly less than ideal, as is (generally) drawing a 3rd Force of Will. You can live with any number of Lords, as long as you get a little counter action, but the same can be said for blue combo pieces in Splinter Twin. I'm never unhappy to see another Exarch or Pestermite, they're good utility. Stax and DStompy are naturally inconsistent because of the need for acceleration, disruption and the correct threat. I don't think they're analgous to Twin because Twin doesn't need the acceleration. One thing that DStompy does not have a problem with is constructing itself to have a turn 2 Moon effect every game because they have access to up to 8 Moon effects and 8 or more acceleration bits. Getting a specific 3rd piece would increase the difficulty significantly, but having 1 each of 2 different effects in hand by mid game is not difficult when you have redundant effects.

    There is always some level of tension between consistency and speed. In fact, I would say that you could define "broken" as a deck where the tension between consistency and speed is at too low of a threshold. Sensei's Divining Top will always, over time, generate more incremental quality advantage than Brainstorm. But even if Top were blue (and therefore pitched to Force of Will), Brainstorm would still see more play, on average, than Top. Brainstorm gives a more immediate value, Top is built for the long game (or decks that don't run blue, I'm looking at you, Rock). And as far as that goes, if increased consistency is our only goal, Scroll Rack would be even better yet! But consistency, while important, is not the only factor in the power level of a utility card. The same thing applies here. You get more immediate value out of both Ponder and Preordain than you would out of Brainstorm and that additional speed is worth the minor loss of utility.

    As far as Preordain vs. Brainstorm, the primary turn for this deck to dig is turn 1. That's the turn where you don't really have any other legitimate plays (other than Spell Piercing or Dispelling an opposing dig spell) and that's the turn you ideally want to spend digging. Turn 2, you want to be dropping Spellskite or Remanding whatever they play. The relevant part isn't that you countered something, it's that you're forcing them to replay it on 3, leaving you safe to play your blue piece EoT and finish them off with the red piece on turn 4. And Spellskite should be a 4-of because it's the best protection spell you've got; it comes down before you can drop any relevant combo pieces and it protects you from removal spells, blocks early creatures out of Zoo and forces Ascension to play around it. Personally, I run 4 Spellskites and 2 Remands as the former is more valuable than the latter. But either way, turn 3 you drop a blue combo piece, turn 4 you drop a red one and win. Sometimes, you have to wait until turn 4/5 to have counter back-up, but usually, your opponent is going to have to play something in order to stay relevant; if they give you too many turns to solidify your position, you'll just go off through whatever protection they're holding. What this means is that the only 2 times you're going to be dropping dig spells is on turn 1 or potentially turn 3 if you're waiting a turn to go off. Brainstorm on turn 1 is, I'm sure you'll agree, meh at best. You draw 3, you put 2 back, then redraw 1 the next turn. You've basically seen 2 cards deeper into your library than you would've otherwise (on par with Sleight of Hand and 1 less card than you'll potentially see with Preordain) if you've got the fetch. And again, if you don't have the fetch, you've just cantripped. Now on turn 3, if you're still holding a fetch at that point, then you get more value out of Brainstorm. So *if* you have Brainstorm and *if* you have a fetch in play and *if* your opponent does something on turn 3 that forces you to wait a turn to go off, then Brainstorm is *probably* better than Preordain. It's entirely possible that of the top 3, 2 of those cards are as irrelevant or more irrelevant than the worst 2 cards in your hand.

    Estratti's list is, in my opinion, inferior to Josh Hakakian's listing and neither is perfect. I agree with you that the Sleight of Hand can go from Estratti's list. But adding in 1 Brainstorm in that slot doesn't really do much for you.

    Your opponent has some hate for you, and you them. Any extra pieces you draw, including extraneous lands, can become protection or hate. Any card you didn't ship out that is less than stellar (but you couldn't board in enough to take it out), becomes any card in your top 3. You are already running the 7 fetches, make them work for you.
    Running Brainstorm main to be able to shuffle away sub-optimal cards that you couldn't board out is a weak argument. If you've built a proper sideboard, most of the major decks you should have a very smooth board plan for. If you're using it as a crutch for poor construction, then I suppose it's good, but it'd be better just to build a decent sideboard to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I think that Brainstorm would not neccessarily be a better choice than Ponder in modern. In legacy, folks don't hesitate to crack fetchlands...because the dual lands they are fetching don't hit them for 2 life. Brainstorm gets BETTER the later in the game you play it (in my experience) and in modern, fetching late game is usually not the smartest move, especially against RDW and Zoo. You want to fetch duals early (tapped if you can) to avoid life-loss.

    I think the most important consideration in modern is that there are *zero* serious control decks ATM. The best use of Brainstorm in legacy is usually to dig for a Daze/FoW/answer when you don't have them, but doing it at the last minute means you can save it up for the best possible moment. I know I don't just arbitrarily play Brainstorm, and certainly not when I don't need to.

    Ponder on the other hand (which also gains value the later it gets played) doesn't need fetchlands to work. It's a great card on it's own. Hell, Preordain is a solid cantrip. The best part about Preordain is that it's a 'fixed' Serum Visions by letting you scry BEFORE you draw. YET, Ponder is about 100% better than Brainstorm on turn 1 (I think most folks will agree with me.) With Brainstorm, you have the same 7 or so cards in hand and looking at the top 3. If you don't have a workable turn 1-3 with those 10 cards, Brainstorm did nothing to change that (unless you are also blessed with a fetchland, but that would be a workable pile of 10 to me.) Ponder shows you 3 cards, and if you don't have any real good plan for your turns 1-3, shuffle up your library and take your 1 random card. You have at least gotten 2 chances to save your early turns from being abysmal. The more you mulligan, the more important Ponder can be in the early game.

    That's my take on it. Brainstorm is great, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't be the pillar in Modern that it is in Legacy.
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  10. #50

    Re: Modern Banned List

    -snip-

    Watch the Ad Hominem, please! If you need a 'clue' then check out the site rules.
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    Brainstorm would be the best card in the format by actual miles. It isn't even a discussion.

    I don't know if you've cast the card in the past decade or so, but the card is literally a fairy fucking godmother.

    Hmm, lets seem I can keep this sketchy hand or no. Well, got a Brainstorm. I'll cast it on two with a fetch up and oh look, everything worked out again. Man, good thing that was there.

    Oh wow, I've got two Twins/Pesters/too many Remands/Shoals. I'll Brainstorm and wow, did it again.

    You are actually arguing almost the same thing as Brainstorm not being good in Reanimator.

    Brainstorm is only useful in certain situations? Brainstorm is useful when you hand is not the stone cold nutter butter blade Ranchington Q. Farnsworth Esquire best. When Brainstorm is "dead", the game is already over.

    And 4 shuffle effects in Twin, which already ran 7-8 just to support Ponder? And Melira beats Twin, aka the slower combo deck beats the one with Remand that actually goes bigger than it unless they assemble the Finks half? In a world where Twin had access to MD Bolt and Firespout?

    Please, tell me, how does one open the portal to the world you live in? Is it permanent so you can run a hard line to access our internet, or does your satellite have the ability to broadcast tran-dimensionally?
    Last edited by 4eak; 09-16-2011 at 06:58 PM.
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  11. #51
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Slightly harsher terms than I would have phrased it, but yes, I basically agree with Ari here.

    There is no way that, should it be reprinted or if modern was pushed back to Masques, that Brainstorm wouldn't be played. Existing decks would likely rework themselves to accomdate Brainstorm. Sometimes you need a combo piece but wanna hold Remand mana up, sometimes you need to shuffle away chaff, sometimes you need to hide your combo pieces from duress/seize/sculler/whatever, sometimes you just need to find that counterspell right-the-fuck now so you don't lose...

    Brainstorm would likely be the nuts in the format if the card was suddenly legal.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    There is no way Ponder might be superior to Brainstorm. And it's not by rephrasing their oracle text that you will demonstrate anything. Brainstorm deals with your hand not what you're going to draw. Brainstorm is instant-speed.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by AriLax View Post
    You are fucking clueless.

    Brainstorm would be the best card in the format by actual miles. It isn't even a discussion.

    I don't know if you've cast the card in the past decade or so, but the card is literally a fairy fucking godmother.

    Hmm, lets seem I can keep this sketchy hand or no. Well, got a Brainstorm. I'll cast it on two with a fetch up and oh look, everything worked out again. Man, good thing that was there.

    Oh wow, I've got two Twins/Pesters/too many Remands/Shoals. I'll Brainstorm and wow, did it again.

    You are actually arguing almost the same thing as Brainstorm not being good in Reanimator.

    Brainstorm is only useful in certain situations? Brainstorm is useful when you hand is not the stone cold nutter butter blade Ranchington Q. Farnsworth Esquire best. When Brainstorm is "dead", the game is already over.

    And 4 shuffle effects in Twin, which already ran 7-8 just to support Ponder? And Melira beats Twin, aka the slower combo deck beats the one with Remand that actually goes bigger than it unless they assemble the Finks half? In a world where Twin had access to MD Bolt and Firespout?

    Please, tell me, how does one open the portal to the world you live in? Is it permanent so you can run a hard line to access our internet, or does your satellite have the ability to broadcast tran-dimensionally?
    Ari, I've been playing with Brainstorm for the last 11 years now. The card is overrated. I'm not saying that it's not good, just that it's not as good as you and most other people seem to think. I'm not going to go back over the reasons why it would be worse in Twin than Ponder or Preordain; I've already said my piece on that.

    As far as Persist being slower than Twin, it's not. Twin has a hard cap of turn 4 win unless you run multiple acceleration pieces to be able to drop Pestermite on turn 2 and Twin on turn 3. There's no reusable acceleration that works on that time scale. Persist can win on turn 3 on a god hand and can gain an arbitrarily large amount of life on turn 3 with a number of different hands. And Persist can win through a lot of the hate that people board against Twin. It doesn't care about Spellskite (which Twin does unless you have Exarch and Kiki specifically), it doesn't care about Torpor Orb, it doesn't care about Ghostly Prison or Burning Tree Shaman. And I would rather have Thoughtseize than Remand in a format of combo vs. combo simply because being able to see your opponent's hand and game plan is so important. Can I tap out here? Do I have to play around Bolt? Which piece does he only have 1 copy of? That information is invaluable unless you're some sort of god at reading opponents' tells.

    And don't ever insult me like that again. Just don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
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  14. #54

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Brainstorm is only useful in certain situations? Brainstorm is useful when you hand is not the stone cold nutter butter blade Ranchington Q. Farnsworth Esquire best. When Brainstorm is "dead", the game is already over.
    -Sigged
    Brainstorm is only useful in certain situations? Brainstorm is useful when you hand is not the stone cold nutter butter blade Ranchington Q. Farnsworth Esquire best. When Brainstorm is "dead", the game is already over.
    - AriLax

  15. #55
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    In regards to your thought that Ponder or even Preordain is better than Brainstorm in twin. While you gave a good run down of the decks ideal first few turns (and in that scenario, yeah Ponder is probably better) you don't acknowledge the fact that unless you live in Magical Christmas Land, thats not the way its going to happen every game. Basing your card choices around ideal scenarios rather than based on actual utility is just wrong.

    And as far as Persist being better than Twin, Blue will ALWAYS be a better color for a combo deck. Period. There are literally zero exceptions to this rule as blue offers everything a combo deck would ever need. As for wanting Seize over Remand in a combo format, I'm guessing you don't play much combo. Because I can tell you from several years of playing nothing but combo that I would rather play all day against decks packing Thoughtseize rather than decks packing Remand. Remand on stuff like seething song or Ascension might as well be a time walk and in most cases even possibly netting you card advantage if you interrupt a ritual chain. Whereas all thoughtseize does is MAYBE, and thats a huge maybe, buy you a turn.

  16. #56

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow View Post
    Remand on stuff like seething song or Ascension might as well be a time walk and in most cases even possibly netting you card advantage if you interrupt a ritual chain. Whereas all thoughtseize does is MAYBE, and thats a huge maybe, buy you a turn.
    apologies in advance for the snark. But doesnt time walk give you one more turn? Which is what buying an extra turn is?
    Actually on topic i feel that jace could come off the list without issue. I feel that wizards will make the mistake of randomly banning cards from decks that did well to nerf them or ban cards that are shared between multiple archetypes like the cantrips. Or the will flip storm the bird and ban rite of flame.

  17. #57
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I'm sorry, did Ari Lax just call someone fucking clueless in a thread about banned list proposals?

    Because I'm pretty sure this happened...
    http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/_/1519
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    Don't disrespect my dojo dude...

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  18. #58
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes View Post
    I'm sorry, did Ari Lax just call someone fucking clueless in a thread about banned list proposals?

    Because I'm pretty sure this happened...
    http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/_/1519
    Are you saying that isn't an accurate assessment? Looks spot on to me.

    also, for that mod, name calling != ad hominem, lol
    I will make use of every tool that fate presents.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    double
    I will make use of every tool that fate presents.

  20. #60
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatusnox View Post
    apologies in advance for the snark. But doesnt time walk give you one more turn? Which is what buying an extra turn is?
    Yes, thats why I said maybe. Remand is always going to be a time walk in modern for as long as the format stays fast. Thoughtseize, if well timed, can be a time walk but they can also just draw out of it or have 2 of whatever piece you are trying to hit (Acension, Swath, Twin, etc). And the main gist of it is that counterspells>discard in combo decks that can handle it. Look at every non LED combo deck in legacy and most the vintage combo decks for proof

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