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Thread: Modern Banned List

  1. #781

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    I currently find it very hard to justify Sword of the Meek being on the banned list.
    What made it the big bad monster? Tokens can use it, but it does not seem all that powerful. Maybe it was big when I was on hiatus from Magic.

  2. #782

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by duhwhat View Post
    What made it the big bad monster? Tokens can use it, but it does not seem all that powerful. Maybe it was big when I was on hiatus from Magic.
    ThopterSword was a monster deck in Extended, especially when it became ThopterDepths by adding the HexDepths combo into it (ThopterSword and HexDepths were originally separate decks, but someone hit upon the idea of combining them into one).

  3. #783
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    Regarding Sword of the Meek, the problem with it is not the synergy between it and Thopter Foundry, but the use of both with either Time Sieve or Krark-Clan Ironworks to go infinite.

    Having said that, this combo is comparable to Abzan Company (including susceptibility to a well-timed Scavenging Ooze activation) and thus I do not believe it would hurt the format unless Tezzeret 2.0 became the new Jace 2.0 for this deck alone.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    ThopterSword was a monster deck in Extended, especially when it became ThopterDepths by adding the HexDepths combo into it (ThopterSword and HexDepths were originally separate decks, but someone hit upon the idea of combining them into one).
    ThopterSword was not only dynamic in the older Extended format (which was "broken" by Modern standards), but the reason it continues to populate the Banned List in Modern is because it would probably invalidate a lot of other aggro decks, and is very splashable given the color requirements. It is potentially oppressive (see the reason and logic given for Deathrite Shaman's banning). Kolaghan's Command is certainly a great card, but a lot of the decks that would play Kolaghan's Command (outside of Jund) would also not mind playing ThopterSword, because it is just awesome and essentially on color in all Grixis shells. Academy Ruins is also very good at ignoring hate cards like Ancient Grudge, because even if the combo is broken up, it is very easy to reassemble.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner View Post
    Regarding Sword of the Meek, the problem with it is not the synergy between it and Thopter Foundry, but the use of both with either Time Sieve or Krark-Clan Ironworks to go infinite.

    Having said that, this combo is comparable to Abzan Company (including susceptibility to a well-timed Scavenging Ooze activation) and thus I do not believe it would hurt the format unless Tezzeret 2.0 became the new Jace 2.0 for this deck alone.
    I don't think a three card infinite combo is "the problem" with any card on the banned list, since Twin and the Melira combo are considered "fine" and you can play 8 copies of both pieces of those combos if you want.

    I think WotC simply doesn't want to deal with the headache of unbanning cards and then having to re-ban them when/if they prove to actually be a problem for the format.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    I don't think a three card infinite combo is "the problem" with any card on the banned list, since Twin and the Melira combo are considered "fine" and you can play 8 copies of both pieces of those combos if you want.

    I think WotC simply doesn't want to deal with the headache of unbanning cards and then having to re-ban them when/if they prove to actually be a problem for the format.
    First, I shouldve said, 'the only possible problem': like I suggested the Abzan Company Combo is basically like ThopterSword.

    Second, I doubt WotC actually knows what they are doing concerning the Modern Banlist: a few cards have gone on and off the list already.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner View Post
    Second, I doubt WotC actually knows what they are doing concerning the Modern Banlist: a few cards have gone on and off the list already.
    Of course they know what they are doing. Modern is in a great spot, there are so many viable archetypes and nothing is overly oppressive. Bloom Titan and Griseoalbrand are slight problems due to 'non-games', but apart from that I'm really enjoying the format at the moment.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Of course they know what they are doing. Modern is in a great spot, there are so many viable archetypes and nothing is overly oppressive. Bloom Titan and Griseoalbrand are slight problems due to 'non-games', but apart from that I'm really enjoying the format at the moment.
    Same. The two decks mentioned are really annoying when they beat you on turn 2, but it's so infrequent that unless they're cheating the exact cards they need into their hand it doesn't happen often enough to really matter. I would be fine with seeing something like Summoner's Pact banned seeing as the only decks it will ever be used in are, "oops I win" combos, but the format as a whole is in an awesome place right now.
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  9. #789

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Same. The two decks mentioned are really annoying when they beat you on turn 2, but it's so infrequent that unless they're cheating the exact cards they need into their hand it doesn't happen often enough to really matter. I would be fine with seeing something like Summoner's Pact banned seeing as the only decks it will ever be used in are, "oops I win" combos, but the format as a whole is in an awesome place right now.
    That's not really true about Summoner's Pact. Sure, it is played almost exclusively in Bloom Titan (it's seen a small amount of play in Elves and Scapeshift), but I can see it as seeing play in some kind of toolbox deck maybe.


    If you want to get rid of the card that's actually only going to be used in "oops I win" combos, then take out Pact of Negation.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    That's not really true about Summoner's Pact. Sure, it is played almost exclusively in Bloom Titan (it's seen a small amount of play in Elves and Scapeshift), but I can see it as seeing play in some kind of toolbox deck maybe.


    If you want to get rid of the card that's actually only going to be used in "oops I win" combos, then take out Pact of Negation.
    It also saw some play last weekend in a Protean Hulk combo deck (similar to the griselbanned deck on here, just using Protean Hulk and Body Double with Reveillark to combo out. Also substituted Goryo's Vengeance with Footsteps of the Goryo)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick "Tasteless" Plott
    It's a trend on the internet, the internet has just become more and more of an unpleasant place. It's become more and more of bitching on forums, and I'm from that really early internet generation where it's just small communities giving each other advice and reasonable dialogue, and it's kind of just devolved into this ugly, ugly thing. I mean, it's too bad you can't be paid to be, you know, a chicken shit fuckin' whiny bitch on the internet or we'd have a lot of rich community members

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Same. The two decks mentioned are really annoying when they beat you on turn 2, but it's so infrequent that unless they're cheating the exact cards they need into their hand it doesn't happen often enough to really matter. I would be fine with seeing something like Summoner's Pact banned seeing as the only decks it will ever be used in are, "oops I win" combos, but the format as a whole is in an awesome place right now.
    I really like this post. Modern has really developed some depth over the past year (goofy cruise/dig era aside.) It seems really fresh to see grixis finally doing well alongside the formats pillars (robots, twin, tron, jund, etc.) Its also really cool to see collected company make a splash and zoo is a contender again. I'm not even sure I dislike the bloom titan/grishoalbrand decks breaking the fundamental turn that was established.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner View Post
    Second, I doubt WotC actually knows what they are doing concerning the Modern Banlist: a few cards have gone on and off the list already.
    As far as I can tell, the only things that have been unbanned were cards on the original ban list and Wild Nacatl, which was banned in 2011 before Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, and Liliana of the Veil started showing up in tournament results and completely reshaped the format.

    I think they're doing fine, the format is probably more diverse than Legacy at this point.

  13. #793

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    As far as I can tell, the only things that have been unbanned were cards on the original ban list and Wild Nacatl, which was banned in 2011 before Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, and Liliana of the Veil started showing up in tournament results and completely reshaped the format.

    I think they're doing fine, the format is probably more diverse than Legacy at this point.
    Kinda? I mean, they're certainly axing every combo that wins by turn 3. But, then they hit Pod and Twin not because they violate this rule, but because they're too consistently in the top 8. It's never going to be Legacy if they keep smashing up the interesting combo decks like this.

    I keep thinking about dipping my toe into Modern, since Vintage and Legacy are on the wane in Denver, but then this kind of thing happens and I just LOL my way out of it again.

  14. #794
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I had the same idea: let's try Modern, and then they ban cards, killing interesting decks in the process. So yeah, no Modern for me. EDIT: except Burn, because well I almost have all the cards already.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    I mean, they're certainly axing every combo that wins by turn 3.
    Yet Burn, Affinity and Infect are all capable of winning on turn 3 and not looked at.
    I am really getting curious as to the stats (% for each turn #) of when each major deck in modern can goldfish a win (counting locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over).

  16. #796

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    Yet Burn, Affinity and Infect are all capable of winning on turn 3 and not looked at.
    I am really getting curious as to the stats (% for each turn #) of when each major deck in modern can goldfish a win (counting locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over).
    Ah, but they're not "combo" decks. Maybe!

  17. #797

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    Yet Burn, Affinity and Infect are all capable of winning on turn 3 and not looked at.
    Burn and Affinity are capable of winning on turn 3 but it's pretty rare. While Wizards of the Coast has never exactly defined what "consistently" means (as that's the criteria for a deck to get banned, if it "consistently" wins before turn 4 and is competitively viable), it's hard to imagine that Affinity and Burn qualify. Infect appears to get a pass both because the deck is vulnerable to common maindeck cards and also because it never manages to stay Tier 1 for long.

    I am really getting curious as to the stats (% for each turn #) of when each major deck in modern can goldfish a win (counting locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over).
    I'm not sure how you could figure that out. The problem is that "locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over" depends heavily on what they're playing against. Plays that will "lock up the game" against some decks do nothing of the sort against other decks. For example, casting Ugin against something like Bogles is basically Game Over, but Affinity just sort of laughs at it.

  18. #798

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Burn and Affinity are capable of winning on turn 3 but it's pretty rare. While Wizards of the Coast has never exactly defined what "consistently" means (as that's the criteria for a deck to get banned, if it "consistently" wins before turn 4 and is competitively viable), it's hard to imagine that Affinity and Burn qualify. Infect appears to get a pass both because the deck is vulnerable to common maindeck cards and also because it never manages to stay Tier 1 for long.
    Infect didn't get a pass; the version using Blazing Shoal generated some of the format's first bannings. :)

  19. #799

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    Infect didn't get a pass; the version using Blazing Shoal generated some of the format's first bannings. :)
    We're talking about current Infect decks. And honestly, Shoal Infect is so different from the ones we have now that you can't even count Blazing Shoal's as a nerf on Infect. One might as well say that Cloudpost ban was a nerf on Tron decks.

  20. #800

    Re: Modern Banned List

    The difference is that Affinity and Infect completely fold to targeted hate if opponents really want to beat them.

    Splinter Twin was a blue deck that could win through hate by using generically good blue answers.

    Wizards policy has been that if a deck is fast and powerful, it can't also be resilient to targeted hate.

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