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Thread: Modern Banned List

  1. #961
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I have also seen an Anger of the Gods cause all kinds of hell. Granted, that was a few months back but I don't know of any new creatures that can take that hit and live in the deck. I think the hate is context specific.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I've played a lot of Modern Dredge. The deck is busted as hell and I expect a banning eventually.

    Anger and Surgical are a lot better sb hate than RiP and Cage, since you play a ton of Naturalize effects in the board.

  3. #963
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    If you're familiar with Legacy or Vintage dredge then you know the story about dredge in Modern. I think there are three major contributing factors to everyone hating it so much now:

    1. Modern is full of linear decks that need hate. Dredge is no worse than Affinity, you can use sideboard to completely crush both of them, but it takes a lot of sideboard cards and there will be games you lose when you do play your sideboard cards. I really think Affinity is a perfect comparison, because it can fight through Stony Silence just like Dredge can still fight through a slew of sideboard hate. Now there's this critical mass of decks that you need hate against, and choosing which one (infect, affinity, burn, dredge, boggles) gets your sideboard slots is going to determine your tournament results and you might just hit the deck you expected you wouldn't for that auto-loss. We're at a critical mass of "must sideboard against" decks.

    2. Dredge is the new kid on the block. Affinity has been in pretty much every top 8 of the format, is terribly linear, and requires dedicated hate to beat for almost every deck. It's just assumed that you'll need X slots to fight Affinity, which is very similar to Vintage's 6-8 sideboard for Dredge rule. You just follow the rule because otherwise you don't stand a chance. Infect is probably the best linear deck, with most sideboard cards barely slowing it down. I really don't think dredge is harder to fight than Infect or boggles, but since people are more used to the other ones, they'll complain about the new one that came in and ruined everything.

    3. I think a lot of it is the playerbase. Losing to Dredge when you hit your graveyard hate in Vintage and Legacy happens all the time (especially Vintage). At no point are you safe against dredge in those formats until you hit your ~3rd lock piece. I think this idea is missed by Modern players who just expect to win once they hit their Anger of the Gods or Graffdigger's Cage. Does Dredge's resilience to this hate make it banworthy? I'd say no, because Affinity can get through Stony Silence and board wipers just as "easily."

    Lastly, not entirely worth a 4th point, I think Modern players are super reluctant to run the best (symmetric) graveyard hate because every single deck exploits their own graveyard. Snapcaster Mage is in every blue deck, Tarmogoyf is in all green decks, Delve of some sort is in most black decks, some decks use Eternal Witness or something similar for card advantage. Kolagan's Command is a great card. Basically every non-linear deck is making use of graveyards and will refuse to use the best hate available to them because they can't afford to lose it when they're playing against other decks. I had Relic of Progenitus x3 in my Legacy Merfolk maindeck a long time ago. It's not that the means to fight dredge don't exist, it's just that no one wants to do it.

    So overall there's just a lot of linear decks and making another powerful one doesn't help because 15 card sideboards are now not enough to fight all of them. I don't know how to fix the format but banning Dredge doesn't really fix the overarching problem, it'll just return when the next linear strategy emerges, and Wizards is hesitant to play Whack-a-mole with its ban list after all the previous fuss (I love when they ban stuff).
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  4. #964
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Legacy dredge isn't great because
    a. It doesn't just autowin g1 because there are enough combo decks out there
    b. There are better ways to protect your Rest in Peace (FoW, Daze) and better ways to find your hate beyond 'mull like crazy'. So a few pieces of dredge hate goes further.

    Vintage dredge is just crazy degenerate, and similar to Modern dredge no fair deck is ever going to win g1. There's also far less pure combo in Modern.

    I think comparing it to Affinity makes sense, but the key difference is that Bolt+Snapcaster decks and BGx decks can take g1s from Affinity. Playing a ton of spot removal main can get you there vs Affinity. Infect - which is also probably 'too good', regardless - is in the same spot. But loading up on spot removal can't get you there g1 vs Dredge.

  5. #965
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Another reason dredge struggles in legacy is the prominance of deathrite shaman, a card banned in modern. What modern does have is scavenging ooze, which is a little slower than rip/relic/surgical but incredibly good once active. I like the modern dredge deck, I hope it doesn't get hit with the banhammer.
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  6. #966

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Everything I would want to spend money on in modern gets a ban.

    Pod, twin, I'm afraid to spend any more money in modern.

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Basically every non-linear deck is making use of graveyards and will refuse to use the best hate available to them because they can't afford to lose it when they're playing against other decks. I had Relic of Progenitus x3 in my Legacy Merfolk maindeck a long time ago. It's not that the means to fight dredge don't exist, it's just that no one wants to do it.


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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidneyious View Post
    Everything I would want to spend money on in modern gets a ban.

    Pod, twin, I'm afraid to spend any more money in modern.
    I truly think we're at a point where you're pretty safe investing in almost any Modern deck. The only deck I could see buying into and getting totally blown out by bannings would be Tron, and that's only if WotC actually decided to ban the tron lands (or the entirety of 8th/9th Edition, as some people have suggested). That's really the only deck I can think of that doesn't transition well into other decks and is reliant entirely on a single card (well, set of 3 cards that all require each other). I could certainly see something getting banned from Infect of Dredge at some point, but I doubt it would be anything that nullifies the deck entirely.

  9. #969
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post


    The deck that just won the GP.
    Yea and? Lantern stole a GP and it hasn't done anything since.
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  10. #970

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Another reason dredge struggles in legacy is the prominance of deathrite shaman, a card banned in modern. What modern does have is scavenging ooze, which is a little slower than rip/relic/surgical but incredibly good once active. I like the modern dredge deck, I hope it doesn't get hit with the banhammer.
    Deathrite Shaman isn't the reason Dredge struggles in Legacy nowadays. In fact, Dredge was actually on the down low for a while... and then Deathrite Shaman got printed and Dredge came back. People cut down on graveyard hate, figuring the Shaman was enough, but Shaman only hits one card at a time and can't do anything until its caster's second turn, so it can very easily be too slow to really do much to stop Dredge.

    It's true that Dredge declined considerably later on, but it's highly doubtful Deathrite Shaman caused it because it was actually quite good even while Deathrite Shaman was around.

  11. #971
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I think Wizards could improve Modern through new cards, rather than bannings.

    They could print some main deckable cards with incidental hate, rather than just printing obnoxiously narrow hate cards. Something like Anafenza, the Foremost or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.

    I'd also like to see more Modern playable cards in UG, UB, and GR. I think it's kind of ridiculous that Bant, Mardu, Temur, and Esper have been mostly uncompetitive in Modern for years. However, with WotCs change in development for Standard, I don't see those color combinations getting any more competitive soon.

  12. #972
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Deathrite Shaman isn't the reason Dredge struggles in Legacy nowadays. In fact, Dredge was actually on the down low for a while... and then Deathrite Shaman got printed and Dredge came back. People cut down on graveyard hate, figuring the Shaman was enough, but Shaman only hits one card at a time and can't do anything until its caster's second turn, so it can very easily be too slow to really do much to stop Dredge.

    It's true that Dredge declined considerably later on, but it's highly doubtful Deathrite Shaman caused it because it was actually quite good even while Deathrite Shaman was around.
    Yeah, good points. I remember when folks were skimping on grave hate in sideboards and relying too heavily on drs. I was guilty of it for awhile.
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  13. #973

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Timber View Post
    I think Wizards could improve Modern through new cards, rather than bannings.

    They could print some main deckable cards with incidental hate, rather than just printing obnoxiously narrow hate cards. Something like Anafenza, the Foremost or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.

    I'd also like to see more Modern playable cards in UG, UB, and GR. I think it's kind of ridiculous that Bant, Mardu, Temur, and Esper have been mostly uncompetitive in Modern for years. However, with WotCs change in development for Standard, I don't see those color combinations getting any more competitive soon.
    Mana leak
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    Condescend
    Cryptic command
    Pact
    Trickbind

    Modern needs a true fow or an unconditional like counterspell.

    There are other notable mentions that get some use in the form of 1 or 2 but they are not so helpful and you always wish they were something else.

    Another thing, is chrome Mox that dangerous? It's obvious they don't want any kind of "fast mana".

    They banned a rather decent all in one card(drs).
    You have to be in green to get the other options for extra mana.
    None of this helps t1 plays

    Some counterspell were only good because of one deck and now what was a 75$ card is now a 15$ card(this is what keeps me from investing in modern, you don't have to play the top deck but the engine that gets banned leaves you with a pile of cards you paid to much for).

    Esper trix, struggles badly.
    Grixis control is just another Delver midrange deck and not a control deck.
    We prison is somehow a control deck.
    Uwr is the closest thing to a control deck IMO.
    Lantern is a prison deck if it can get the engine rolling.
    Grixis midrange is more control than midrange but more like a burn deck than a control deck.

    Nothing to help a blue good stuff deck, if you see the amount of blue cards in "blue" decks it's not that much.


  14. #974

    Re: Modern Banned List

    Bump


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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesgordon View Post
    Bump


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    Why?
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  16. #976
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Why?
    I think he's suggesting that RB Burn is too strong and needs a ban.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Speculation on the hinted unbanning in yesterday's announcement? While I wish for a Jace unban, I think the more likely candidates are Splinter Twin or Bloodbraid Elf.
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Speculation on the hinted unbanning in yesterday's announcement? While I wish for a Jace unban, I think the more likely candidates are Splinter Twin or Bloodbraid Elf.
    Likewise, I'd love Jace, but I think it's way above the power level of the format.

    Twin and BBE would be my bets as well, though I feel like SFM could come off too.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  19. #979
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    Re: Modern Banned List

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Twin
    I understand that many disagree with WotC's decision to ban Twin in the first place, but lets assume that if it was to be allowed back in the format, Wizards would only allow it if its meta penetration was drastically reduced from when it was the format's policeman.

    Based on that assumption, what has changed or been printed that makes you think its numbers would be within a 'WotC acceptable' range?

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    Re: Modern Banned List

    I only see BBE getting the unban. It was only ever in the format alongside Deathrite Shaman and if you compare it to other 4 drops that Jund would play it's about the same power level (obviously depending on the cascade). Without Deathrite Shaman they don't have the speed to just bury you like they used to.

    I can't see an unban on Splinter Twin, definitely not happening with SfM (that card is so busted), Jace is the only other maybe, but I'd hate to see it without another reprint. JtMS wouldn't be unsafe it'd just be expensive as hell, and I think more people would complain from it being legal than it just living on the ban list.

    Can you imagine if WotC unbanned Twin and then it took over the format again? That'd be some irreparable PR damage when they banned it a 2nd time.
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    It's a trend on the internet, the internet has just become more and more of an unpleasant place. It's become more and more of bitching on forums, and I'm from that really early internet generation where it's just small communities giving each other advice and reasonable dialogue, and it's kind of just devolved into this ugly, ugly thing. I mean, it's too bad you can't be paid to be, you know, a chicken shit fuckin' whiny bitch on the internet or we'd have a lot of rich community members

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