That has never looked like a chat to me. We're in the Format Discussion forum here, not in the phantasmagorical format of each individual. It's generally all about banning our bad MUs and unbanning our pet cards. It's motivated by frustration and expressed with bitterness.
It's a forum...everything posted is 'just a chat'. The only time it goes from being a 'chat' to being 'out of line' is when flaming starts happening and people take things personal. Then it's just ridiculous.
Message from Earth: it's a forum about a card game. It doesn't really change your life circumstances.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
What a terrible response. "It's more annoying" to whom? The annoying thing is seeing a thread about the banned list be exclusively about people complaining about getting cards off of it and others trying to justify their "Legacy is better, it has a smaller banned list" positions. Why not have a thread with actual thought provoking posts as to how the banned list affects the metagame, or how certain cards actually gained a lot of value by taking rival cards out of the picture?Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I understand that would be adding content and using brainpower for the betterment of magic society, which isn't easy when you're on an anonymous online forum and can instead say "Let's unban everything, I miss Legacy cards," but my real question was, 'why bitch so much about things you can't have, let's do something with the things we do have.'
This is exactly what I am thinking:
Instead, I'd love to have a "talkin' shop chat" about how to use the information we have to our advantage. I already said why I think the unbanning discussion is not useful from any perspective, so if you have an actual reason other than "we just talk because talking is talking" then let me know.
Do you understand how infuriating it is to read this?
Message from The Source: This is a forum about a card game. If people are posting here it's because they identify some part of themselves with their past times, enough to actually do a google search and begin a discussion. Just because you want to play it down as if it is nothing doesn't mean anyone else does.
I'm proud of liking this game, even if I have less than 5 hours a week to spend on it. Everyone I'm friends with for long enough knows I play this game. I value my precious free time enough to let the things I do during it affect my life circumstances. If you don't, I feel sorry for you, but other people do value things that you don't, and that may be why they're writing here in the first place.
A friendly reminder to everyone: please stay on topic ('banlist' threads tend to devolve) and be civil.
-4eak
-snip- Stay on topic.
-4eak
Anyway, has Ancestral Vision ever been a problem card in any format ever? Was it a big deal in faeries in TSP/LOR standard? I don't really remember
I will make use of every tool that fate presents.
Let me give an attempt and deliver my analysis:
- Cloudpost: this ban is here to kill a specific archetype. I'm not even sure it has completely invalidated the cheat-Emrakul-from-my-hand plan. There is still the Urza-tron mana ramp that can be efficient (through Primeval Titan). Banning GSZ is another big blow to this archetype. Even if I did not play it anymore, I suspect I would have played it back for the Overgrown Battlement mana ramp plan. There are still a long list of Emrakul cheaters such as (by decreasing order of efficiency) Summoning Trap, Quicksilver Amulet, Through the Breach, Elvish Piper, ... According to me, Cloudpost was not banned because 12-post was dominant in the previous metagame but because it was harmful to the balance of the metagame. It had auto-win against control decks. Those latter were thus absolutely not competitive. I'm not sure that 12-post was the only reason for the non-existence of control in the metagame and I don't expect to see much of them post banning.
- Ponder and Preordain: those cantrips were judged too good in slow combo decks (turn 3/4 kill). The overall goal of the magic R&D is to (at least) reduce the combo strategy in Modern. The problem I see is that they were the only weapon for U-based control decks as well. My analysis is that U without counterspells and efficient cantrips cannot endorse the control role. If any competitive control deck there is, it will be discard/black based. The impact on the main combo decks is not that huge, since they can replace them with Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions. Splinter Twin has still a lot of redundancy, and actually cantrips were played in this deck simply in order to do something else that draw/land drop during the first turns. Pyromancer Ascension relies a bit more on its cantrips to find the eponymous enchantment and also it needed 3 different cantrips and I'm not sure which could be the 3rd one now. Eggless Omelet is not viable anymore according to me, but I might be wrong. I probably don't know the deck enough. As far as I know, the other combo decks with cantrips have never been competitive.
- Rite of Flame: R&D said clearly that they did not want any combo before turn 3, and Rite of Flame was a real danger to achieve this goal. I've never found Red Storm consistent enough to give it more attention than that. I am also among those who think that Rite of Flame was good in Pyromancer Ascension and that it is a another blow for this archetype.
- Green Sun's Zenith: this ban should affect G-creature based aggro-control decks more than Melira Combo. In Melira, Chord of Calling is better than GSZ, because we want to tutor non-green creatures and because we want an instant speed response to any removal (Chord on Spellskite or Dauntless Escort are great outs against any removal).
- Blazing Shoal: once more, R&D did not want to have turn 2 kills in the Modern format and Infect could perform this on god hands on turn 2 and quite regularly on turn 3. I'm not sure it was really necessary. There was a lot of ways to cut the combo (Melira, Sylvok Outcast/Spellskite/Gaddock Teeg/Path to Exile/...) and the Infect deck did not seem to have the weapons to struggle against all this. Anyway, Infect is probably dead with this ban, so that we can consider it's not anymore in the metagame.
Splinter Twin and Melira Combo are the big winners of this ban list according to me. Pox is the only control deck I can see perform with Smallpox, Liliana of the Veil and maybe Death Cloud. As for aggro strategies, I still think that Zoo is not good enough in a combo metagame (even creature-based). Big Zoo has lost GSZ. And I don't see the point of playing Sligh Zoo when you can play RW Landfall. RW Landfall is an aggro deck that can have comboish kills. It did not lose anything form the bans and goldfishes very fast. I think it can perform well. Jund is a deck I don't know well, but I suppose it can disrupt efficiently with Thoughtseize and Blightning. In addition to that, it can play the best current removal: Go For The Throat, because it can't be redirected on Spellskite.
Ps: I did not find a Red Storm thread. I'm quite surprised because I thought I had seen it here at some point.
PPs: The only Infect deck I found is monogreen and it's not the archetype that did a result which is mono blue. I'm less surprised about that because I did not know the deck before it was published.
PPPs: Whatever, those decks are dead right now.
I apologize for infuriating you...it was not my intent. I was just trying to put some perspective on this. I see the forum as a place for discussion. People shouldn't feel 'afraid' to post because their post doesn't have enough 'brainpower' for the 'betterment of magic society'. Some people post on forums to share experience, others to hopefully garner discussion so they can learn from that experience.
I play magic and identify myself with this game. I also happen to have a wife and 2 children that are far and above more important to me than magic. That is all I meant by 'not actually affecting life circumstances.' My free time is just as precious, and I use it for magic as well. I think we have a simple misunderstanding.
Once again, my apologies. I value your input greatly. You may or may not remember, but you helped me shape my BUG Gifts deck into a winning combination, a contribution I haven't forgotten.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
What would happen if....the fetchlands were banned. How much would that change things for zoo and other decks?
Also, Chrome Mox should definitely be unbanned. It is mana acceleration but for a cost. It's not actually that good, but it helps slower decks to race faster decks.
Actually, it would help faster decks to race slower decks a turn (or two) earlier.
That would be the about as bad as letting Rite of Flame back into the format as far as storm combo goes.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Rite of Flame is 1 card, +1 mana. Chrome Mox is 2 cards, +1 mana. Chrome Mox is acceleration, but like, for instance, Mox Opal (which might be playable with Chrome Mox in the format), it's not acceleration which lends itself well to Modern storm. Twin might use 1-2 Chrome Mox, but without a way to reliably draw a fuckton (that's the official term) of cards, the card disadvantage would be more than the boost was worth.
Think back to when Legacy was first split from the T1 banned list. Everyone on this forum was pissing and moaning about how Long was going to be unstoppable and how anything that wasn't storm was going to have to pack 4 Force and 4 Null Rod just to have a chance. Then they realized that running 4 Mox Diamonds and 4 Chrome Mox and 4 Petals and 4 LEDs didn't work with the cheap draw in the format.
Now Modern does have access to Ad Nauseum and Infernal Tutor, but it doesn't have Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED or IGG. So Tendrils style storm isn't really viable. And U/R doesn't have a draw engine that will let them generate a lethal Grapeshot storm if they're spending 2 cards to generate a single mana. Because remember, you're not getting lethal storm out of your opening hand. Best case scenario, you're going to want 6-7 storm, Grapeshot, Past in Flames, Grapeshot. Or a lethal Ignite Memories, but that's a little harder to judge, since it's random. That's a full hand worth of cards though. What do you do when two of your opening 7 are Chrome Moxes? Having 2 Rites in your opening hand was like asking to win turn 2, having 2 Chrome Moxes means you're probably pitching it back.
Well reasoned, as I hadn't thought completely through what Chrome Mox would do to the format.
So, is it safe to say that while Chrome Mox would help slower decks, it would also help faster decks... therefore not really helping the slower decks at all?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
While I understand the issue of using Chrome mox as an acceleration piece it does the one thing that current Modern combo decks currently lack: It bridges the 1 to 2 mana gap. The combo decks don't run enough artifacts to turn on Opal, so Chrome would be the next best thing to fill Rites shoes in that regard.
In many cases a U/R storm deck, if i were building one, would probably be similar to the pauper storm style decks. I would utilize Ideas Unbound, Manamorphose, Thirst for Knowledge, Past in flames, etc. and wouldn't necessarily go off turn 1. But If you know your opponent is playing heavy disruption for instance and you have the following opener:
Song
Desperate
Desperate
ETW
chrome
mountain
IU
I'd keep that and just pump the tokens out and pass as it's likely going to get there. Even if the second desperate ritual was another chrome, still +1 storm even if it's +0 mana. Now, I know the card isn't as good without a critical mass of cheap rituals, but I think it would still fill an important role for Storm, and especially for combos such as Ascension that are trying to hit 2 mana turn 1 to drop their namesake before hand disruption or countermagic come online.
Again, I understand it isn't Rite of Flame, but i think that crossing the 1 -> 2 mana gap without having to pass the turn can be huge.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
It can be big. Before Modern was announced as an official format, I played, in addition to 12Post, All In Red. And of course, having Rite and SSG to get you to two mana where you can play one of your 8 rituals is important. I've had some pretty ridiculous hands with that deck; I had a turn 1 EtW for 16 one game and once had turn 1 Magus of the Moon and Koth of the Hammer. But I also know that if those SSG's or RoF's had been Chrome Moxes, a lot of those hands would've been trash. It's like Dragon Stompy in Legacy. Sometimes, it's just retardedly fast/strong/whatever. Turn 1 there's a Rakdos Pit Dragon, turn 2 they have hellbent and there's a Moon and a Taurean Mauler on the table.
Would it be helpful for storm? Yes, absolutely. But I just don't think it would boost storm enough to make it scary; I thought the deck was strictly inferior to Twin prior to the updated banned list and I don't think this would change that. Especially since it doesn't interact well with storm's other new toy, Past in Flames.
We are in agreeance here, perhaps with me being a bit more on the side of not wanting to risk it.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Not to sidetrack the thread, but speaking of Past in Flames...does it get storm to tier 1 now, being only inferior to Twin in regards to combo decks?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
You now have Past in Flames but lost Preordain, Ponder and Rite of Flame so I doubt it
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Tier 1.5-2 then? I think Past in Flames makes for a very resilient version of storm. I hear whisperings of Brain Freeze fueling Past in Flames in legacy...is there a self-dredge mechanic that PiF can take advantage of? Ideas Unbound comes to mind, as well as Glimpse the Unthinkable. What it lost in speed (Rite of Flame) it can make up for by filling in those slots with disruption (Delay, Remand, Echoing Truth) to get to the mid-game where they can combo out.
Thoughts?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
My impression of Past in Flames is that it helps storm count but does not speed up the deck to an appreciably faster kill. The only Past in Flames storm deck I've played against on MWS was a fairly sad affair; there was no Ascension or Swath, meaning it needed a ridiculous amount of storm to kill with. So generally speaking, no I don't think it's advanced to tier 1.
Sims: I've heard people say that Chrome Mox would make control viable. I don't know enough about the tap-out style control decks of the last half decade to really want to comment on that. I'm a stubborn old fart and as far as I'm concerned, it's not control unless it's running a dozen counterspells at least. But it seems reasonable; U/W Landstill died in the transition from 1.5 to Legacy because the loss of Drain slowed the deck down a turn. Maybe speeding up a turn would make Modern control viable. At the same time, like you said, there's a risk that it would make storm too good and so there's no need to upset the applecart just yet.
Of course, I still don't know what out there beats Twin consistently without a fair bit of dedicated hate in board, so maybe we need to do something to make control viable if for no reason other than to keep Twin down. It's been mentioned that Soul Sisters gives the deck fits, but from what I understand, Soul Sisters isn't really that great against the rest of the format, so...
Soul Sisters doesn't lose much in the transition from the Legacy list to Modern, but what it does lose is huge: Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic.
Knowing your matchup and being able to Mystic -> Batterskull or Sword of X/Y to put your opponent on a clock makes it bad against most combo decks in the format. The Sisters themselves if you have enough (1 vs exarch, 2 vs. mite, 3 to just laugh) shut down the Twin combo barring no removal. Not having Mom to protect against bolts or other removal sucks.
Against aggro I can see the deck doing well, to an extent, as with enough of the 1 drops you can out-gain the damage output frrom some decks and you still have Proc of Rebirth to bring your sisters/ascendants back. Has trouble with punishing fires though, that alone with enough mana will shut down the sisters.
Chrome might speed control up enough to be able to compete, I'm just wary of unbanning a card most of it's applications since release have been in combo oriented decks. I still think the biggest problem for non-tapout control in Modern is the lack of good countermagic. Remand is decent at harassing and your best hardcounters are highly conditional (dispel, spell snare) or cost too damn much to be relevant early (cryptic, dissapate, hinder)...
Ultimately you may be right, Chrome Mox would allow control to speed up it's counter ability at the cost of a card, but it can make those cards up later with TFK, Think Twice, Etc.. and even pitch extras to TFK.
risk vs. reward as far as making traditional control viable.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
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