Crumbling Sanctuary seems like it could be interesting here. It buys you a ton of time and makes it so attacking you feeds your win condition. That said, it seems like it would be most effective at slowing down aggro until you can hit your combo, and it might be to slow for that.
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Originally Posted by Slay
Thought Lash would be better in that case... it costs less and mills yourself even faster with the damage prevented
Oops, I didn't read past the cumulative upkeep part because I figured that was the only part that was relevant. Well, that'll teach me.
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Since we can make the combo work with creatures only (and Thought Lash as a side enabler) would'nt be interesting to run Aether Vials to put Laboratory Maniac, Divining Witch and Snapcaster Mage directly into play?
Also Worldly Tutor seems a good choice (plus Snapcaster lets us play it again eot).
Gitaxian makes Worldy Tutor better.
Let's say:
Creatures 15:
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Divining Witch
3 Coiling Oracle ( cantrips, chumpblocks, pitches to Fow and feeds Therapy, brainstorm tricks)
Draw / Tutors 12:
4 Worldy Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
Vials 4:
4 Aether Vial
Protection 11:
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Cabal Therapy
Lands 18:
2 Basics
9 UBG Fetchlands
7 UBG Duals
Note: the manabase can be tweaked to fit Imperial Recruiter which substantially tutors every creature we need.
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Why don't just run Lab Maniac in a Cephalid Breakfast Shell?
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One reason is that this combo is invulnerable to graveyard hate, another reason is that this deck has potentially a bigger room to pack protection, unlike Breakfast.
The thing about Divining Witch is that it's vunerable in THREE aspects:
1. Resolving
2. Has to stay alive another turn (also slows combo an additional turn unless it's resolved very early which you shouldn't count on)
3. Has to activate successfully... there is hate out there against that.
I'm not saying it isn't viable, but give me Leveler any day as it only has to resolve and you get a fattie 10/10 blocker if you can't win that turn w/ a draw spell. ...well worth 5 generic artifact/creature mana vs. 1B and an activation of 1B the next turn.
Divining Witch seems more of a 1-of or something that is worked in after extensive playtesting.
I like Vial especially if you can work in Goblin Welder w/ Leveler.
Those are absolutely the reasons why I think testing Divining Witch would be a complete waste of time. I think that Thought Lash is the card that R&D would like to break with Lab Maniac. It's ability to protect you from lethal damage and win on the spot with Lab Maniac in play is insane.
Thought Lash's ability can be activated at anytime, much like Nomads/Shaman en-kor. It doesn't have to be sacrificed only during your upkeep, you can empty your library anytime and win via Gitaxian Probe/Brainstorm/or Ponder.
Here's my first take on the deck, gave it a couple of runs in MWS and it played very well. I had good opening hands, mulliganed to six twice.
The deck is weak against discard. Force and MisD are there against Team America and the likes, you need to watch out for Extirpate though.
4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Misdirection
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
I prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors because it's reusable in cases where you EOT Intuition for Thought Lash and then cast it main phase.
Is leveler really better than Mirror of fate?
All of the win condition's in this deck are creatures. What does it matter if they bolt divining witch? Then they don't bolt the mage and just make you lose. Following this train of thought, you should add more must remove creatures and overload their removal. Thus, I suggest adding Dark Confidant to the deck, as well as cabal therapy and duress/thought seize. Cabal therapies would allow you to sac dark confidants or divining witches after you complete your combo.
Why don't you just run Laboratory Maniac in a Painter's Servant-Grindstone shell with Imperial Recruiter to fetch either combo piece? This gives you a dual-win condition against decks running Emrakul (as you can 'Grind yourself out), and if an opponent isn't running Emrakul, then you just 'Grind them out and win anyways. You can still run cards like Thought Lash assuming you want to go that route as its own separate win-condition with Maniac.
Cards like Leveler and Thought Lash require serious consideration and setup and are basically dead draws assuming you don't have Laboratory Maniac in play. If you're going to play Leveler, at least consider Torpor Orb for Christ's sake.
...Which is why the original list included Shroud/Hexproof boots - you thought they were just there for padding? The Haste helps massively, as well.
Which makes sense, but then you also have to consider what to cut. The second list I devised used Intervene, but Confound might actually be better.
With Haste, the Divining Witch cost 2BB and is still vunerable to "activation hate"... yeah I'd rather have a 5cc generic artifact mana that only needs to resolve.
Torper Orb is dumb in this deck unless you are running x1 Lab Maniac and it's like your third win option.If you're going to play Leveler, at least consider Torpor Orb for Christ's sake.
Leveler is easily better than Mirror of Fate becauseIs leveler really better than Mirror of fate?
1. Leveler is easier to tutor
2. Leveler does not have an activation (but does have a CIP)
3. Leveler can be creature animated from GY
4. Leveler serves as a 10/10 blocker if you can't go off the turn you cast him
It's possible this could work in Painter-Grindstone but it seems like win-more... is worth testing.Why don't you just run Laboratory Maniac in a Painter's Servant-Grindstone shell with Imperial Recruiter to fetch either combo piece? This gives you a dual-win condition against decks running Emrakul (as you can 'Grind yourself out), and if an opponent isn't running Emrakul, then you just 'Grind them out and win anyways.
This is probably the best argument for Divining Witch. However, in a blue shell it seems easier to replace creatures with combo protection. Dark Confidant is interesting but I'm going to test a blue shell first splashing Worldly Tutor and a Vexing Swisher (see the decklist I posted earlier).All of the win condition's in this deck are creatures. What does it matter if they bolt divining witch? Then they don't bolt the mage and just make you lose. Following this train of thought, you should add more must remove creatures and overload their removal. Thus, I suggest adding Dark Confidant to the deck, as well as cabal therapy and duress/thought seize. Cabal therapies would allow you to sac dark confidants or divining witches after you complete your combo.
Trollshroud boots makes the deck clunky, it will only protect your creatures from spells your opponent doesn't have YET. If they have it then they'll just burn/remove your creature in response to equip. No profit there. Mental Misstep and Misdirection are way better.
With regards to Leveler (mana cost) I'm guessing it'll be hard staying alive for ~5 turns against aggro to reach that 5 mana threshold. Self-inflicted damage from Ancient Tombs will also speed up their clock.
I played against Merfolk and I barely survived his attacks. Facing Daze + Cursecatcher + Wasteland, I managed to win by slipping through an Intuition for Thought Lash and casting it on my first main phase, Lab maniac already on the board.
I'm playing 4x Chrome Mox 4x Ancient Tomb 2x Crystal Vein and even with those resources I feel I don't have time to have access to 5 mana against aggro decks.
/Agree which is why a Grand Architech or similar build (or maybe Goblin Welder/Reanimate) may be best for Leveler + Labatory Maniac.With regards to Leveler (mana cost
I played against Merfolk and I barely survived his attacks. Facing Daze + Cursecatcher + Wasteland, I managed to win by slipping through an Intuition for Thought Lash and casting it on my first main phase, Lab maniac already on the board.
I'm playing 4x Chrome Mox 4x Ancient Tomb 2x Crystal Vein and even with those resources I feel I don't have time to have access to 5 mana against aggro decks.
But, 4x Mental Misstep is a must for this deck and Cursecatcher is probably the best target against Merfolk as we should be able to go off before Aether Vial becomes a problem. Merfolk should actually be an easier matchup. Team America is the one that seems to be a bitch on paper.
Think I'm playtesting Legacy tonight (depending on a friend) and going to try to work in the "Mad Labs" build I listed on page 1 - will report back any findings.
That's fair enough. I've been looking at Grand Architect for a Modern build, but wasn't too sure about Legacy...
Land:
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
Creatures:
4 Grand Architect
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Leveler
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe (maybe change to another artifact)
2 meta slot
The problem is that Painter/Grindstone is easily the most effective mill strategy available, but even in existing Painter builds, Maniac is not as good of an out against Emrakul/etc. as Crypt or Relic.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Painter can easily be overwhelmed with creatures and it has no other way of protecting itself other than red blasts and Servant needs to stick for that to be effective in the first place.
With Thought Lash you can sustain the damage, it's like Solitary Confinement and when you land it you just wait till you find your win con. I'm not saying it's the bomb right now, but it is really a new, cool way of winning at Magic.
Just a thought...4 horsemen shell? With monolith/orb you can mill yourself until you hit 3 Narcomebas, Dread Return, and Maniac, then win. I mean it would basically be the exact same deck, except you drop Emrakul, Blasting Station, and Sharuum for Maniac and 2 more search/protection spells. Or I guess you could leave Emrakul in to get the most out of Cabal Therapy.
Edit: Just re-read maniac and realized you would have to go off at the end of your opponent's turn, making Emrakul a no-go. Still seems decent though.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
This build is intriguing.
Um, quick update. Playtested the build I posted on page 1 (took out Jace 2.0) which is very similar to the above except
-4 Intuition
-4 Chrome Mox
-4 Grand Architect
+4 Worldy Tutor
+4 Mental Misstep
+1 Spellskite
+1 Xantid Swarm
+1 Divining Top
(24 land - 4 Tomb, 4 Tropical, 8 fetch, 8 Island)
We got in 6 games w/ me playing this and my friend playing the Merfolk deck that top-2 Sunday @ SC Open. First game, I won turn 4! ...ended up winning 4 of 6 which is a damn good start for a first build though obviously an extremely small and limited sample.
Worldly Tutor + Brainstorm/Gitaxian Probe (option of being free is huge) + Fetchlands is crazy good for this deck. It's practically a lock to have the 2 card combo in your hand by 4th turn every game with FoW and/or Mental Misstep backup. Also don't fret if you get a Maniac countered/killed as it is super easy to dig for another or Worldly Tutor.
Worldly Tutor is also insane with Snapcaster Mage as you make-up for the card disadvantage (Brainstorm/Probe), use as utility/protection on a Misstep or if you lose a Maniac, dig for another! Still not sure if running x1 Xantid Swarm or x1 Vexing Swisher is good but seems like x1 Spellskite is solid.
Planning on extensive future testing and perhaps try Architect. Doubt I'll give Intuition a shot because of how awesome the Worldy Tutor + Snapcaster Mage interactions seem to work.
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