The problem with these decks is they're too graveyard dependent and actually just lose to an active Knight of the Reliquary or Tormod's Crypt.Originally Posted by fallenphoenix
The graveyard dependency issue is something I took into account when I built my list. It is in the deck for consistency and resiliency, it is not meant to be counted on to go off. No cute interaction with milling myself etc, just kill them. This card is better than Ill-Gotten Gains in this respect. You are also NOT putting counters BACK into your opponents hand when you cast this and nor are you relying on having a specific set of cards in your graveyard. You also don't have to worry about life loss from Ad Nauseum. Simply put, built with cantrip effects, this card will draw out a win, or recycle one discarded/countered by an opponent. This adds a serious element of resiliency and consistency. If it turns out to be a Sorcery, which that has flipped back and forth a bit, then Burning Wish can be used to make sure its good, and that you do not have to rely on Lion's Eye Diamond. This is an extremely powerful effect and I will not be surprised to see it at top tables.
Yep, no way to deny that, it's a one-trick-pony.
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I would be shocked. I don't believe the card is strong enough to force its own archetype due to the amount of graveyard hate in Legacy.
I'm not arguing that this card is worse than Ill-Gotten Gains, I don't believe that it is. One thing that Ill-Gotten Gains has going for it is a sure win when you cast it. None of this cantrip and hope to win that you mentioned. However, it's not better than Ad Nauseam, the two can work beautifully together providing two different strategies than fit into the same deck. Past is just too weak on it's own.
As for "Not relying on Lion's Eye Diamond", LED has the most raw power that this format has to offer. Not playing due to the linear strategy of, "I can't flash it back" is silly. I can't how many times I've top decked Lion's Eye Diamond, then said "Sorry" and won. Which is why you would want to merge the two strategies.
This bears repeating. LED is still the god-est of godsends.
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Agreed. If you're playing without LED, then you're clearly doing it wrong...
Doesn't Past in Flames make Gamble a lot better?
Theoretically; if you're discarding the ritual you just tutored, so you can go off, then you're not really helping yourself here.
Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Past in Flames, flash all your rituals, Gamble (tutoring for Grapeshot, discard), flash Gamble (tutoring for Grapeshot, discard), flash Grapeshot, flash 2nd Grapeshot.
Burning Inquiry fits this very well too.
Unfortunately I don't think past in flames affects cards that go into the bin after it resolves. So you have to flash back past in flame at the end of that sequence which IMO is very difficult. I'm not sure if pass in flame is worth splashing for in ubr ant. Could replace iggy as the alternate md engine.
Most likely not going to happen as often as you think. SOUNDS fun, but I'd much rather CONSISTENTLY win with LED and tutors. You simply die next turn if your opponent has ANY type of hate for past.
Seething song? No... Just no...
This card is going to truly shine in TES/TNT, where you can wish for it, and win. In most situations I would much rather be recurring 2 LED's and an infernal anyway.
How would this interact with Ancestral Visions in the 'yard?
You can't cast it. Same as Recoup and Snapcaster Mage.
Something like:
Swamp, LED, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Seething Song, Etomb, Gamble
-> Lethal tendrils.
However, it looks like there isn't really enough high quality instant/sorcery based acceleration available to justify it. As far as I can tell the list of viable options is basically: Dark Ritual, Seething Song, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, and to break even - mana wise - on Past you'd have to have 2-3 of those in the GY.
...
I really think that the high tide approach may work better.
A totally different approach with Past in Flames might be to use it in some kind of dredge deck or along with Devastating Dreams. Though those sorts of decks have had Recoup avaiable for quite a while, but have not used it.
Last edited by rufus; 09-14-2011 at 12:40 PM.
This card is pretty powerful. I bet it makes a new storm style deck playable. Card draw and graveyard fill seems important. I would, if I had the time, try to create a red black SI version, but that is just me. Rituals, draw, rituals, flashback crazyness, win.
I think you mis-counted. The first flashbacked Rite of Flame should generate RRR, as there is one in the graveyard still.
This means if you were hellbent after Past in Flames, you could Infernal-Tendrils.
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The word "or" irritates me. Do we have to choose between instant OR sorcery or not? Second, does it affect cards that are put into your graveyard AFTER PiF resolved or is there a timestamp?
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Not playing LED is doing it wrong. I don't care what storm deck you're playing that kills with primarily tendrils, LED is broken. It also interacts quite nicely with past in flames either by paying the flashback cost of 4R via topdecking it when it's in the yard or there's always the burning wish sacking LED in response, always a very strong play.
This card seems hilariously funny in SI. They have so many instant's and sorceries in that deck and flashbacking all of them seems awesome. It would definitely be a new build though.
Brain freeze's interaction with this card is absolutely incredible. You brain freeze yourself for something like 5 copies, mill this card, flash it back, then go absolutely nuts over your opponent and brain freeze them for a lot or yourself to do it again and ramp up storm or find what you need since brain freeze is a really sick tutor in this regard.
Overall, the closest thing we're ever getting to yawg's will. It'll be interesting to see how big a splash this makes in legacy.
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I think it's phrased that way so that the latter is not true. If it was "Instants and Sorceries in your graveyard gain flashback" that would affect all present and future cards in the 'yard. Instead it's "Each Instant or Sorcery" so that it gives flashback to each of them but none in the future.
This card seems to be too powerful in modern. I now fully expect some sort of banning for the storm decks there, probably rite of flame, perhapse grapeshot and empty the warrens instead. They were already pretty good but this would push them way over the top. Just my 2c
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