Hey man, wanted to congratulate you on winning the whole thing (I was your top 4 opponent). You were very nice throughout the match and played really well, as opposed to me. I clearly was not prepared for the matchup and made several mistakes throughout. Grats though for sure!
Thank you. It was a pleasure to meet and play magic with you!
peace,
4eak
Sweet report, and it's awesome to see a regular win the entire thing! Well done!
One small question though: what does DDD mean? "Draw, discard, dredge"? I'm not a dredge player and English isn't my first language, so I haven't seen the term before :/
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Oh, the videos of my last two matches and the interview are up right here. Scroll down to the last 3 video clips to find them.
peace,
4eak
Congratulations, i enjoyed watching the video matches.
Im a new player so plz forgive me if this is a dumb question.
The whole mental misstep banning October 1st, i believe i heard you say in the interview this deck was specifically designed against misstep? Or a better version against misstep than ledless dredge (or something like that).
I dont really see it, how would u change the dredge list after Oct 1?
Btw, im going to play this is in an upcoming legacy tournament, i dont care about the meta or hate, its cheaper than most decks and this seems really fun to play :)
Thxz.
The decklist avoided Mental Misstep by building around the DDD strategy. You always elect to draw (not play), you open a hand with a dredger (pretty common), you discard down (uncounterable), and you get to start slow-dredging. You can always continue to DDD and use phantasmagorian to empty your hand, but you also have the ability to drop lands to play spells (when it is safe and/or necessary).
The change I would make, after MM's banning, would be to add the discard outlets back into the deck. I am in the minority opinion (I believe) in seeking to continue to DDD even after MM's banning. You can find my explanation in the dredge thread.
This is the decklist I'm using right now:
// Lands - 14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast
// GY Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
// Self-Discard - 7
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp
// Draw - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 3 Tireless Tribe
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
I highly suggest reading both the Non-LED Dredge (a goldmine of information for LEDless players and construction) and the regular (likely now the de facto) Dredge threads. They'll be very useful to you.
peace,
4eak
Congrats on the victory man. I just joined because i saw the interview at the end of the tourey and have been trying to contact you asking how youd build the deck after this recent ban.
After seeing this new list though i have a few questions.
1: Why tribe and not imp mb or both, and why have more discard outlets in the sideboard? Tribe seems like a better blocker+ outlet. My guess is for the blue decks that are going to start forcing the first outlet you cast? Especially 3, thats a lot of spots.
2: Iv personally havent played the manaless version more than a few times but do you think Phantasmagorian is still better than tribe?
3: Second Tarnished Citadel a lot better than just one?
4: No GY hate for reanimator or any other gy based deck? Seems pretty hard to win when they go turn 1 entomb. They can reanimate a Iona a tad quicker than us.
5: Do you almost always throw in all 9 artifact/enchant kill against any black deck? and all 7 for anything else?
Thx again and good luck man!
I've answered some of these questions in depth in the Dredge thread (last 3-4 pages). I'll very briefly explain my thoughts here though:
- I don't have the full 8 PImp/Tribe outlets in the deck because I don't have room for them. They aren't actually that useful game 1, except for mulligans (which should be very uncommon). Game 2/3 it is more common to mulligan (as you are looking for more specific hands to handle a particular deck and anti-GY hate), and you want better ways to recover from GY hate. PImp/Tribe are far more useful in G2/3 - I still have 4 PImp MB and 3 Tribe to side in.
- Tribes is a better blocker, but as I rely upon Ichorid more than usual (going from 3 to 4), the black creature count matters, hence PImp.
- FoW on my discard outlets are pretty uncommon because I'm DDDing. They have bigger targets to hit, and I very often get to therapy for FoW before dropping an outlet that is important to me.
- For the DDD strategy, yes, it is clearly better than Tribe. The card may require some practice to motivate a better understanding of the theory behind it.
- The 2nd Tarnished citadel is in the deck because we have a higher mana curve.
- I'm not convinced that they necessarily reanimate Iona faster than we can (especially if they only run 1), but I agree they do combo off before we do. I'm far less worried about answering opposing GY and combo decks than others because I don't think we have great options against many of them. If Reanimator, specifically, is a worry, then Leyline seems reasonable. I'm not convinced you should play Dredge in a metagame filled with faster decks, not unless are you just preying upon combo predators (generally blue decks).
- Sideboarding is a bit more nuanced than that. I'll try to generalize: I rarely side in more than 4 anti-GY hate cards, unless it is to handle Leyline/Wheel.
peace,
4eak
Hi 4eak,
First of all congratulation on your win. I have not been back to The Source for a while.
Second, love how you explained your use of the phantasmogorian, and its situational uses.
Third, I know you feel that bloodghasts are "janky". However I would still like your opinion on how it can be incorporated into a dredge deck.
Just recently acquired a dredge deck so I'm browsing through the forums for more information on how to play it.
--TheProfessor
How you should incorporate Bloodghast into the deck requires we know how/why we are using them in the first place. It is in direct competition for card slots and other functions, and the reasoning for Bloodghast will impact what we take out.
I honestly don't know how to incorporate it in a way that I like. For every example substitution you'd make for Bloodghast, I believe I can tell you why it is weaker than regular, non-Bloodghast builds.
That's not the answer you want, but that is the most accurate answer I can give. If pressed to give a decklist, I'd start with this:
// Regular Lands - 13
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
// Dredgers - 13
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
// Self-Discard - 6
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp
// Recursive Creatures - 11
3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
// Draw - 7
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
// GY-Goodies - 10
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
I don't think this is the best way to build the deck. But, if you are set on using Bloodghast, this is where I'd start.
peace,
4eak
I see iv gained some insight from that. Are you stilling planning on going the DDD plan game one then and a discard outlet g2 or it just depends on how fast you need to go off and what you draw? I figured since MM is gone the deck would be trying to go off as quick as possible since other fast decks are now not in check anymore. Or maybe even the LED version may be a better version now?
I want to draw in all games, whether or not I actually DDD depends on the specific circumstance.
Dredge has no place in a format that is faster than it. Mental Misstep, hilariously, was a good thing for dredge, I just didn't realize that fact until it was almost too late.
I'm still convinced that when you design around the DDD strategy, you also have the best chance to draw those "turn 2" hands. There is a lot that goes into that, see the Dredge thread - I give some important math in there (I think).
I would add that many people just don't realize what the 8th card means to a combo deck. The average turn you "go off" is substantially faster/earlier with that 8th card for ANT, Belcher, etc. The same is true for Dredge (no matter the build or strategy), but Dredge is uniquely improved (and thus having even more reason to draw) even further by actually becoming far more consistent when you also grant the option to DDD from your opener. Combined, Dredge, even built for speed, should be drawing rather than playing.
peace,
4eak
Another thing im guessing why you did so well is because the vast knowledge of legacy decks, iv been having success with the recent list post MM banning. My problems now seems to be G1 turn 1 or 2 cabal therapy targets. Some decks it seems pretty simple like naming force of will or batterskull in u/w stoneforge but do you mine setting up a list of good cabal therapy targets for the majority of the top decks? before and after hate depending on what most of those decks from for gy hate?
Like Zoo: Teag, Grim Lavamancer, Bolt and so on.
How you should go about naming therapy is very circumstantial and (almost) particularistic. I don't have much general advice or a known decision procedure for the card, although I will claim there is a correct answer in any given situation. Therapy is a card you need to practice with (a lot), and you need to become very familiar with the decks of legacy (as you point out).
I think I can give you a name if you give me specific situations. It can be more difficult to specify than you'd initially think. The answer depends on more than just what is on the board, in the GY, your opponent's hand (as far as you know), and telling my your hand and what you sided in. My answer would vary if you know (and to what degree you know) or don't know the decklist and sideboard of your opponent. My answer might vary based upon assumptions of opponent skill (I don't necessarily assume my opponent plays perfectly). Etc.
Unfortunately, that might not seem helpful to you right now, but I think with practice, you'll come to agree with me on most of these points.
peace,
4eak
Alright cool i understand its just having more vast knowledge and sorta knowing whats going on and what cards enable some other cards to blow up your bridges or exiles/kills ichorids and narcs. Did you ever have anyone playing Bojuka Bog or Extirpate against you? A lot of the loom decks seem to be running those. And iv come across a lot of random decks running the Extirpates too. more so than before the banning. Nothing worse then a crop rotation into a bog as soon as you dredge half your library lol. What all decks did you play against at the tourney besides what was documented at the semi and final?
Would Leyline of Sanctity be a half bad idea in the sb with the meta speeding back up and all the storm decks coming back?
Iv been testing with your list a lot and im having more trouble with some of the faster deck and being targeted with hate.
I put together a list im going to test out a bit and id like your opinion on it for the meta changing. The main deck seems pretty standard but from what iv seen the darkblast isnt something i alwasy want g1. And by the time i can use it ill usually be blowing my own bridges up. I agree for with your statement about mb reanimator targets but i feel Flame-Kin Zealot being able to end the game there and now when they could be tapped out. The second game against chriss boozer, when he was tapped out on t2? oe 3? i think and you reanimated the troll and it got swords the next turn because he was able to untap and cast it. Do you think its important enough to be able to kill on the turn you get 6+ zombies before they can untap? Even if you only get them below 8 or so and the ichorids/ extra tokens can finish them off.
// Lands - 14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
// Reanimate
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
// GY Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
// Self-Discard - 7
3 Tireless Tribe or Phantasmagorian i havent decided what i like better.
4 Putrid Imp
// Draw - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Darkblast
After reading your match report, I am amused at that atleast over half of your matches involve you getting a headstart because the other player would not take the draw in games two and three, or in the Top 8, would not elect to draw as well in game 1. Sounds like the quality of opponents (minus Gerry Thompsan apparently seeing as how he played you pretty close and did actually elect to draw) was what propelled you to victory. Oh well, good win in Atlanta. The Phantasmagorans are great in Mental Misstep meta, but I don't think they are the future of dredge machine. Dredge is extremly meta game dependant anyways, if not the most in the format. So for this reason congrats.
Team Shit Sandwich; smelling bad so you don't have to.
Hi,
I really like this build and I came up with a quite similar list than yours 4eak.
But I have some questions about the sideboard:
Would you systematically side out Phantasmagorian for Tireless Tribe?
What would you side out for the other cards? In your previous list Street Wraith was out almost each game 2/3, what about now?
Is Nature's claim the best choice right now? Isn't Chain of Vapor better because of less Leyline and more Reanimator?
Thank you
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