Would you like it if Brainstorm was banned?

[Gui]

EDIT: Duh, made a mistake there, it's "I can LIVE with that" Sorry :(

Simple enough question.

I think there is still some time for this one before the list comes. Let's see how the crew feels

[Julian23]

I might be emotional about it, but banning Brainstorm would really hurt the competitiveness of the format as it's the single-handedly most difficult spell to play in the entire of Legacy. Right now, I assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect and don't nearly get enought value out of it. However, most people just don't realize because it's their generally assumption that Brainstorm is just a good card in itself.

[KobeBryan]

I might be emotional about it, but banning Brainstorm would really hurt the competitiveness of the format as it's the single-handedly most difficult spell to play in the entire of Legacy. Right now, I assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect and don't nearly get enought value out of it. However, most people just don't realize because it's their generally assumption that Brainstorm is just a good card in itself.

No matter how bad you play brainstorm, it is still devastating. End of Turn brainstorm, using it to hide from discard, using fetchlands in response to shuffle, using it as a response to.

oh man. This card needs to go.

[Draener]

EOT Brainstorm is quite often aweful, and is usually a mistake. The only exception could be T1 digging for a free counterspell when you don't have one and the game is determined enough by tempo that forcing through your two drop will win you the game.

Assuming no fetch that is.

*Edit* I am in the camp that I would hate to see it go, but I love the format enough that I would suck it up. It would be quite soul crushing, though.

[Julian23]

right now, i assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect

end of turn brainstorm [...]
oh man. This card needs to go.

q.e.d.

[brattin]

Bullshit. Brainstorm sucks when you keep a one land hand with brainstorm, play it turn one and see no lands, and then have to draw two nonlands on your next two turns.

Obviously you shouldn't keep a one land hand hoping for brainstorm to draw you out of it, and if you do that, you should wait until turn two to cast it, or whatever, but my point is that you can play a brainstorm like shit. It is not always good.

Edit: I'm real slow.

I think brainstorm is totally fair, and would be sad to see it go, but would still play Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

Meh, the option for yes look a lot like an option only a fanatic would vote for. Regardless, i think a ban on Brainstorm would revitalize the format and create a lot of new archetype space, especially for decks based in black. If worse come to worse, brainstorm can be unbanned again. It's not like the list is a life sentence. I'd like wotc to be more liberal in their approach to the B/R list.

[Gui]

I'm in the field that I don't care. If no brainstorm, something else will be strong, and if brainstorm go, decks playing it will try to use other cantrips, and go figure, they will work. Blue would get a small nerf, but in the end of the day, I'll have to adapt to whatever comes.

[(nameless one)]

What would people play in a format without Brainstorm?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'd live with it because I love Legacy, but I'd be very angry and disappointed. I'm also very tired of seeing cards that are powerful but fair being targeted for speculative banning (Lackey, Tarmogoyf, FoW, Top, MM, and now Brainstorm). Most of the time, those discussions don't even succeed in picking out the actual problem cards, or the cards that really make an archetype dominant in a given metagame. The fact that something is powerful is not necessarily coextensive with its being problematic or unfair. I really appreciate Zilla's post on Brainstorm in the B/R thread; I think he has the right of it:

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

[KobeBryan]

q.e.d.

my points exactly. No matter how bad you play brainstorm, it is still useful

[Gui]

I'd live with it because I love Legacy, but I'd be very angry and disappointed. I'm also very tired of seeing cards that are powerful but fair being targeted for speculative banning (Lackey, Tarmogoyf, FoW, Top, MM, and now Brainstorm). Most of the time, those discussions don't even succeed in picking out the actual problem cards, or the cards that really make an archetype dominant in a given metagame. The fact that something is powerful is not necessarily coextensive with its being problematic or unfair. I really appreciate Zilla's post on Brainstorm in the B/R thread; I think he has the right of it:

I'd like to counter this argument, FoW, Brainstorm, MM and Tarmogoyf (not that much anymore, but still) are clear examples of Dominant strategies to me. Maybe not degenerate, but dominant.

[Lancer]

Yea, I believe the banning of Brainstorm will hinder NO/Blade Decks. Also the banning will hinder control players from using Mental Misstep since the spell can become deadweight and not so easly to filter out of your hand.

[Gui]

Meh, the option for yes look a lot like an option only a fanatic would vote for. Regardless, i think a ban on Brainstorm would revitalize the format and create a lot of new archetype space, especially for decks based in black. If worse come to worse, brainstorm can be unbanned again. It's not like the list is a life sentence. I'd like wotc to be more liberal in their approach to the B/R list.

Sorry, I should have added "Yes, but just for the LuLz" or "Yeah, cuz I don't like it's drawning "

[Deviruchi]

I would be sad and I would have to abandon combo ship. But maybe it would be a good moment to play something like Deadguy Ale / Eva Green which I like very much as a deck strategy.

[Julian23]

my points exactly. No matter how bad you play brainstorm, it is still useful

Wait...you were just proofed playing Brainstorm wrong and now talk bullshit about "my points exactly"? I guess that's how discussion on the Internet works.

That aside, a card being "useful" whenever you play just means that the card does anything, which is a quality applicable to almost any card in the format.

[KobeBryan]

Wait...you were just proofen playing Brainstorm wrong and know talk bullshit about "my points exactly"? I guess that's how discussion on the Internet works.

That aside, a card being "useful" whenever you play just means that the card does anything, which is a quality applicable to almost any card in the format.

Do you understand what I mean? I said no matter how bad you play brainstorm, the end results with the card is still overpowered. Granted, there are other ways to maximize the utility of the card, but even at an EOT brainstorm is good for lots of other purposes, like getting an extra land, or drawing into a combo piece, or untapping ur lands after getting excellent card quality.

[Julian23]

Do you understand what I mean? I said no matter how bad you play brainstorm, the end results with the card is still overpowered. Granted, there are other ways to maximize the utility of the card, but even at an EOT brainstorm is good for lots of other purposes, like getting an extra land, or drawing into a combo piece, or untapping ur lands after getting excellent card quality.

Sorry Avatar, but you are just wrong. End of turn Brainstorm is far from broken. We can't discuss potential banning of Brainstorm with people that consider it broken by itself.

You fail realize that you are just saying that casting Brainstorm does "anything". That's no point to argue about because - as I said - almost any card in Legacy will do anything when being cast.

[Mr. Safety]

Bullshit. Brainstorm sucks when you keep a one land hand with brainstorm, play it turn one and see no lands, and then have to draw two nonlands on your next two turns.

Obviously you shouldn't keep a one land hand hoping for brainstorm to draw you out of it, and if you do that, you should wait until turn two to cast it, or whatever, but my point is that you can play a brainstorm like shit. It is not always good.

Edit: I'm real slow.

I think brainstorm is totally fair, and would be sad to see it go, but would still play Legacy.

Thank you for pointing that out. Brainstorm turn 1 to cheat 1-land hands is bad play. At least I think so...

Brainstorm is one of my favorite cards of all time. Having it relegated to Vintage/casual play would be sad indeed.

[Rizso]

I dont think the format would be so enjoyable to play without Brainstorm.

If they really want to reduce the power of brainstorm they better print cards that does punishing drawing mulitple cards a turn. Kinda like Chains of Mephistopheles but instant version of it. Chains never surprices anyone, but an instant version could do it.