Control Galore? Modern post September 20 bannings

[mojoiskewl]

What do you guys think?

I think its gonna be.

combo is now dead, there is an unbalance in the aggro-control-combo triangle


also, called it!

[GGoober]

No Ponder, no Preordain, no Top so that severely strains control, not to mention the lack of early game counterspells (no Daze/FoW/Misstep/counterspell). Tap out control maybe viable. No combo only means that aggro gets stronger. I played a Gifts Teachings deck that almost could never lose to combo (I actually swapped the shocks and Ghost Quarters for Duals and Wastelands and tested against a Vintage deck and was close to beating it).

But the deck had a hard time beating aggro, because aggro loses barely any speed compared to Legacy, whereas control loses all the speed. Aggro takes a lot of damage from fast fetch-shocks, but control player is very often forced to do the same to match the aggro player, this immediately creates an advantage for the aggro player since the control player's life is starting low as a way to answer the fast aggro clock. Basically until they print some faster counterspell (Snare is amazing, people don't play it enough, remand sucks in 'pure' control) like counterspell itself, and give a stronger early game, the only form of control that is truly viable is probably going to be primarily tap out, with maybe some instants here and there.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with you there, Metalworker. My BUG list is a lot closer to a tap-out control list than a true control list, with only a smattering of permission (Spell Snare of course, Mana Leak, and Spell Pierces having some slots in/out of the sideboard at times.)

[DragoFireheart]

Oh god, modern is such a shit format. Aggro decks are going to be the decks to beat. Maybe this is what Wizards wants: an eternal style Standard format.

[rufus]

Oh god, modern is such a shit format. Aggro decks are going to be the decks to beat. Maybe this is what Wizards wants: an eternal style Standard format.

I think there'll be at least one more round of combo domination and ban-hammering first... How long 'till the Modern ban list is longer than the Legacy one?

[jancz]

More like Aggro Galore. Affinity and Zoo are still decks as is Jund. Boros and Burn may see play as well now. Also Ad Nauseam Conflag combo?

[Maveric78f]

Oh god, modern is such a shit format. Aggro decks are going to be the decks to beat. Maybe this is what Wizards wants: an eternal style Standard format.

Is RW-landfall-SecondSunrise aggro or combo? Seriously, this deck is just incredibly consistent.

[DragoFireheart]

Is RW-landfall-SecondSunrise aggro or combo? Seriously, this deck is just incredibly consistent.

Aggro-combo.

[Sims]

They hit GSZ but the rest of the Melira persist combo is intact, so that's still a potential deck. It wasn't as fast as the U/R Combo decks, but it's playable. Twin is still playable even without the cantrips simply because it's heavily redundant. can't beat having 8 of each combo piece. Pyromancer Ascension might be playable still. Not in the storm aspect but in the stick Ascension -> chain some spells -> banefire + bolt you out of the game. Not as good without the good cantrips but it's still feasible i think.

The faster/consistent combos being gone also opens the door for Cascade-balance/living end and Eggs to step up though they are relatively glass cannon. Eggs was running some of the cantrips but no more than 4-6, they might be able to go serum visions/sleight of hand and not lose too much.

Aggro gets stronger. As said, Zoo is now very well positioned without having to worry about fast combo or post. Affinity and Jund are decks, boros and burn can now compete.

Tapout control is going to be the only way control can realistically survive. I'm thinking some kind of board control ala Pox/Deathcloud, perhaps even lorwyn/alara-esque Cruel Control.

I'm interested in this boros landfall sunrise deck. Do you have a link Maveric? or is it something you're brewing and keeping tight to the chest?

[DragoFireheart]

Can one even play blue in this format?

[umbowta]

Can one even play blue in this format?

You're kidding, right? Last time I checked UR Wildfires was pretty good at beating up on aggro. Aside from that, I've got a couple of gro lists that are looking pretty good on paper. The hard part will be getting someone to test against.

Splinter Twin is far from dead.

...and CounterCat Zoo says GO BLUE too.

[Fossil4182]

Let's face it, this format does not have a viable control archetype due to the recent B&R. While Ponder and Preordain being banned are definitely hinders control as an archetype, its also because nothing was unbanned. The "power" spells in the format for control are Clique, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce...and.... ya, that's about it.

Control will best be served in some sort of Bant or BUG shell that will emphasis aggro over control. I'm not invested in Modern (though I playtest it with my friends), but from an outsider looking in, I've never enjoyed aggro strategies. With combo being "neutered", why would I want to play in a format where Clique, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce are the defining cards for control? The problem isn't just that control is underpowered, its also not "fun" to play. Its kind of disgusting that I think casting Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and/or Bitterblossom is "fun", but I would venture there are a large number of players who enjoyed those cards and the fact they can't be used is a huge turn off.

[Zombie]

Do you enjoy Wall of Omens=>Draw spell=>Wrath=>Elspeth 1.0?

[Mr. Safety]

Can one even play blue in this format?

I've been playing blue since day one...and TBH, the bannings have made my BUG deck a lot less ideal. The deck was designed specifically to combat the combo in the format...now I have to switch gears and become much more dedicated to the aggro matchup. Second Engineered Explosives and more board wiping effects are in order, for sure. Possibly even Infest in the sideboard so it can hit a turn earlier than Damnation.

What I wouldn't give for a decent low-level wiper at instant speed at 3cc or less...in something besides red, lol.

[phonics]

Cards like ponder and preordain embody a lot of what I consider magic to be, but Lapille really wants creatures to turn sideways doesn't he.

[SpikeyMikey]

I mostly agree with Sims.

With Persist, the Pod heavy version that was on MTGO didn't run GSZ to begin with. So that version is completely unaffected by the bannings. The version I was playing with Thoughtseize and Sculler ran 4 GSZs and was already slightly behind Zoo preboard. I shored the matchup up with Spellskite and Timely Reinforcements out of board. Without GSZ, I'm slower and what was an uncomfortable Zoo matchup to begin with becomes downright bad.

I think some version of Persist will be viable, but I'm not sure how good it will be. "Viable" and "what I want to take to the tournament" aren't the same thing.

Twin, at a 7/6 split, is still over 50% to naturally draw the combo by turn 4. Even replacing Ponder and Preordain with say Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand or See Beyond leaves the deck consistent enough to win. Don't pull your Twin hate from the board just yet. The deck may have to adjust, but since the other U/R decks were completely killed and Infect is gone, it can adjust even further towards beating Zoo. Personally, I liked the heavier 8/7 split anyway, as I'm never sad to see more blue combo pieces and Kiki gets around much of the hate people bring in against you.


While I don't disagree with GSZ being banned, their stated reason is wrong. Banning GSZ will not increase the diversity of green. It will, if anything decrease the diversity as a variety of semi-midrange Zoo builds become obsolete in favor of Cat-Slighesque builds. I don't think the CFB CatFish build was ever the correct build of Zoo to begin with but I think without GSZ the deck falls apart. It relies on GSZ to act as a Noble Hierarch when the deck doesn't have 1 for turn 1 and it relies on GSZ to access Qasali Pridemage, something the deck still wants to see every game. It would require quite the balancing act for it to maintain it's current mix without the strong tutoring of Zenith.

But getting rid of GSZ does kill the best version of Persist, and with Twin weakened and the other combo decks gone, that's probably a good thing, even if they don't realize it.

[honestabe]

Looks like they really want this format to be an eternal standard, which really sucks. I think a lot of what excited people about Modern was the chance to dust off Jace, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Scapeshift and Jitte without having to spend a million dollars playing legacy. Not that I'm complaining about legacy prices, I have duals, forces, wastes, etc. But I think WoTC's vision of modern isn't what a majority of players want, which only means doom for the format.

[daugarten]

Looks like they really want this format to be an eternal standard, which really sucks. I think a lot of what excited people about Modern was the chance to dust off Jace, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Scapeshift and Jitte without having to spend a million dollars playing legacy. Not that I'm complaining about legacy prices, I have duals, forces, wastes, etc. But I think WoTC's vision of modern isn't what a majority of players want, which only means doom for the format.

I have to disagree. The players I run into that want to play Modern are mostly new players. Personally, I'm a new player and don't have any of the older staples of Legacy, and I am unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck that I want to play most. Modern lets me choose an archetype I prefer and play it for cheap. I'm happy that Jace and friends are banned because if they were legal the best decks would likely have them in their 75. I'd rather not have to worry about buying them. Lastly, I've played against Jace and Jitte and many others before and they just don't feel fair; the game is less enjoyable.

I like playing a format that won't rotate and the cards seem very fair. I'm hoping that one day the format will be as diverse as Legacy, until then... exploring a new format (as unbalanced and evolving as Modern is) is enough for me.

To get back on topic... I think Control is going to have a much easier time putting together a list without having to worry about combo as much. I'm happy to see bannings of Cloudpost and Shoal, but Preordain/Ponder don't make sense to me. If Storm is too consistent and fast take away the Core (Storm cards) not the engine (draw spells).

[DragoFireheart]

Lastly, I've played against Jace and Jitte and many others before and they just don't feel fair; the game is less enjoyable.

I like playing a format that won't rotate and the cards seem very fair. I'm hoping that one day the format will be as diverse as Legacy, until then... exploring a new format (as unbalanced and evolving as Modern is) is enough for me.

- Found the problem with the format.

To get back on topic... I think Control is going to have a much easier time putting together a list without having to worry about combo as much.

- You're right, they'll just run some aggro deck that hoses Zoo.

Modern: Where control is aggro control, aggro is non-cat aggro, and combo is cat/zoo-aggro.

[GGoober]

I have to disagree. The players I run into that want to play Modern are mostly new players. Personally, I'm a new player and don't have any of the older staples of Legacy, and I am unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck that I want to play most. Modern lets me choose an archetype I prefer and play it for cheap.

Except the contrary is more true: Modern is a highly expensive format (especially since it's the format of dreaded speculators). Modern itself was solely responsible for the unnatural price hikes of Goyf/Bob/Cliques/Shocks/Groves/Blazing Shoal (lol) and much more.

To get back on topic... I think Control is going to have a much easier time putting together a list without having to worry about combo as much.

True for 12-post 'combo', but Control didn't have to worry about storm/grapeshot/EtW combo. Mindbreak Trap is just that devastating. The only issue is: control loses to aggro in Modern, and it can't beat 12-post reliable at all, hence no one plays it or does well with it in such a metagame.