As janky as it sounds, the deck does perform admirably against opposing aggro decks while maintaining a respectable clock. In certain metagames, it seems like a decent option.
Here is a decklist:
// Lands - 22
14 Plains
4 Kabira Crossroads
4 Glimmerpost
// Lifegain - 13
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
1 Martyr of Sands
4 Auriok Champion or Suture Priest
// Life Combo and Utility - 8
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
// Win Cons - 11
4 Serra Ascendant
1 Student of Warfare
4 Ajani's Pridemate
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Card Advantage/Selection - 6
4 Ranger of Eos
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Mana Tithe
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
There are a ton of cards to consider in this deck. It has a lot of flex space, and can be tailored to answer certain combos pretty effectively.
Just in case, I want to point out the Metamorph + Relic-Warder combo. With a relic-warder and a life-gainer in play, you can play metamorph, copying relic-warder, targeting itself, and loop for an arbitrary amount of life. The nice part about this little combo is that these cards are actually effective all by themselves.
peace,
4eak
After more testing, I've changed the list:
// Lands - 22
22 Plains
// Lifegain - 12
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Auriok Champion
// Life Combo and Utility - 8
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
// Win Cons - 8
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Ajani's Pridemate
// Card Advantage - 10
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Mentor of the Meek
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Mana Tithe
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
Never thought I'd say this, but: I like this white weenie deck.
The infinite life combo is excellent. You don't have to run bad cards to do it either. Both metamorph and relic-warder are great cards by themselves -- they actually have the stand-alone power this decks wants (when the incremental life-gain routine isn't primary). Together, they can win you the game on the spot (many people scoop to it).
I've increased the card advantage aspect of the deck, and I'm happy about it. Mentor of the Meek is kind-of like paying 3cc for 50% of a Skullclamp which doesn't eat your weenies. I'm impressed by the card; he can put games away all by himself.
Originally, I was only playing with 8-life trigger guys, but moving up to 12 has been excellent. You really want to get to the point where you don't care if your opponent is swinging at you. You'll outgain them and swingback.
The deck has been performing well for me against a wide variety of decks. Obviously, most combo matches are very unfavorable. Twins is better than you'd think =).
peace,
4eak
This deck probably wants Emeria, the Sky Ruin. You certainly have the Plains for it. There might be other options like Mistveil Plains and Tec-Edge that appeal, too.
The first decklist I tried had Emeria, the Sky Ruin. I ended up taking it out to put in the lifegaining lands, but those were too damaging to my tempo and increased mulligans. There really are games where you see enough plains to make Emeria, the Sky Ruin worth it - particularly if you are only running plains otherwise.
I'll be going:
-2 Plains
+2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
peace,
4eak
Isn´t Fiend Hunter strictly better than Relic Warder?
2 Fiend Hunter combo with themselves.
Relic Warder only comboes with Phyrexian Metamorph.
I would think that this is very good against twin. I know that my version would be cold to this because I run repeal instead of firespout.
Originally Posted by Draener
Fiend Hunter isn't strictly better. There are plenty of games where you go, T1 life-gainer, T2 Relic-Warder, T3 Metamorph. Going off a turn earlier can matter. Hunter costs more, so it isn't strictly better.Isn´t Fiend Hunter strictly better than Relic Warder?
2 Fiend Hunter combo with themselves.
Relic Warder only comboes with Phyrexian Metamorph.
It does combo more often. As you point out, it combos with itself. So, if you have a Hunter, you only need 1 of 7 other cards. Whereas, if that were a relic-warder, you'd need 1 of 4 other cards. The odds are better.
As I've said before, Relic-warder has some serious stand-alone power. Traditionally, some of the more dangerous cards for general creature-based decks to face are enchantments and artifacts (see how QPM revolutionized the metagame when it came out). Relic-Warder handles these problems nicely (much like QPM).
Hunter has nice standalone power as well. This deck wants to run creatures almost exclusively. Having a Journey to Nowhere on a body is nice for this deck (basically getting 1/3 body for).
Perhaps removing creatures is more important than artifacts and enchantments. If that is the case, then Fiend Hunter does seem better than Relic-Warder.
All that said, we need not assume Hunter and Warder are mutually exclusive. It is possible to take the deck in a slightly different direction, focusing more on the infinite lifegain combo, and run both Hunter and Warder alongside Metamorph.
If you have a Warder, then you need a Metamorph.
If you have a Metamorph (in hand), then you need either Hunter or Warder.
If you have a Hunter, then you need either a Hunter or Metamorph.
I'll try it out.
EDIT: Fail. Hunter doesn't work. I must learn to read.
-------------------------
I've actually decided to run Suture Priest in the sideboard. Games with heavy removal are games where I want all 16 life-gainers.
The manabase still isn't making me happy. There are hands where you could play just fine off 1 or 2 lands, and some hands where you clearly want to ramp up to 3-4 for Ranger and Mentor. The mana needs of the deck are schizophrenic. I hate going to 20 lands in this deck, as it has no cantrips or mana acceleration, and it relies heavily upon its opening hand. Mulligans are really common at 20 lands. I may end up trying to work Aether Vial back into the deck and see if that helps.
I'm also looking for solid answers to Punishing Fire (which is ridiculously good against this deck). 4 Relics may not be enough. Burrenton Forge-Tender doesn't do enough (although, it works just fine against Firespout versions of Twins).
peace,
4eak
Last edited by 4eak; 10-01-2011 at 02:17 PM.
I don't get how two fiend hunters work. The first one comes into play and targets X. The second one comes in and targets the first fiend hunter returning target X to the battlefield. You would then need a third to make the loop.
Warder and Metamorph works because it can target itself. Fiend targets "another" target creature.
Aether Vial may work in here as well since you have mulit cc creatures. They surve well enough that you should be able to put one out a turn and redundant vials can be set to another cc.
Snap, you are right. 2 Hunters can't do it. Hunter and Metamorph doesn't work either. A combination of 3 doesn't seem to work either.
peace,
4eak
Three Fiend Hunters or a Metamorph and 2 should work.
Hunter 1 CIP and removes random X
Hunter 2 CIP and removes Hunter 1
Hunter 3 CIP and removes Hunter 2, which returns Hunter 1 to play.
Hunter 1 CIP and removes Hunter 3, which returns Hunter 2.
Hunter 2 CIP and removes Hunter 1, which returns Hunter 3.
etc.
Seems awfully difficult to setup for the same thing that can be done with a Relic Warden and a metamorph.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Corrected again. I promise to learn how to read and play magic!
But, yeah, Hunter isn't worth the effort.
peace,
4eak
I believe what you're looking for is mark of asylum. I also play 3 tectonic edge MD, mostly for grove.
Has 4 ranger + 4 mentor been OK for you? I found it too mana intensive, which is why I've cut mentor for some additional 1cc creatures to fetch with ranger : wayfarer (with 1 horizon canopy, 1 kabira crossroads, 1 emeria and the aforementionned tectonic edges), FoD (in case I just need a big threat), gideon's lawkeeper (to but us a few turns or connect with ascendant / pridemate) and of course martyr of sands. Most of the time I still go for a sister, but it's not like those cards are bad by themselves so I think there is valued added.
Mark of Asylum is excellent. Thank you!
Tectonic Edge is terrible against Punishing Fire. Yeah, it hits Grove, but who cares? This decks is constantly producing life gain triggers for Fire. We are our own worst enemy against Punishing Fire.
I'm loving Mentor and Ranger. They are mana intensive, yes. This deck is also very good at getting to the mid and late game. It doesn't play like a normal WW deck which is literally trying to race the opponent. You are usually content to grind out advantage in this deck. Mentor does well with just 3-lands in play. You drop him, you drop a dude (most cards in this deck will cost 2 or less and trigger Mentor), you pay 1, and you draw a card (it feels like Enchantress when you do this). He's very dangerous to leave unchecked.
Wayfarer is underwhelming in this format. We don't have enough lands worth getting. Figure of Destiny and Student of Warefare, at least as a 1-of, seems reasonable enough. At low life totals and high land totals, RoEos into a mana-sink weenie can be good. I'm very underwhelmed by Marty of Sands - if you don't open with the card, it really isn't impressive. I end up finding, with my build, that RoEos for 2 Serra's is overwhelmingly the goto play, so I've cut SoW/FoD.
As to my current decklist:
// Lands - 20
20 Plains
// Lifegain - 16
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Auriok Champion
4 Suture Priest
// Life Combo and Utility - 8
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
// Win Cons - 8
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Ajani's Pridemate
// Card Advantage - 8
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Mentor of the Meek
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Mark of Asylum
SB: 3 Proclamation of Rebirth
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
The deck continues to become simpler in design (which is unexpected on my part). It has become streamlined as a pure-creature deck. I'm still preferring just Plains over every other configuration of lands I've tried (I really would like to use non-basics just because they aren't boring!). Cutting down to 20 has been fine. I've added in Suture Priest to the main. So far, I'm happy with the move. I constantly get my critical mass of life-dudes, even in the face of removal. Proclamation is now SB material - it is far worse than Mentor and RoEos in general gameplay, and it only comes in against control decks.
peace,
4eak
Duh! Didn't think this through...
After some playtesting, I have found that wayfarer is decent, but I very rarely want to tutor for it with ranger. It could easily get the boot. I see you've cut Emeria, did you find the cipt clause to be too much of a handicap?
20 lands seems very low to me, especially in a mana-intensive (ranger + mentor x4) build such as yours. I'd cut 2 priests to go back to 22.
Regarding the SB, I'm not sure oblivion ring is necessary. We have relic-warden in the main and can handle planeswalkers through combat, so the only thing I see it helping against are eldrazis. And that's what Gideon's Lawkeeper (MD for me, but it could also be SB material) is for. In these slots I play canonist (vs storm and living end, two difficult MU) and 1 burrenton forge-tender (to fetch with ranger).
Against living end, mirror entity enables to deny the wrath effect. Damping matrix looks like a great SB card to beat both Melira and Twin (and it's probably verygood in other MUs as well. I'm not sure I like the soul asylum in SB, when spellskite is almost as good against removal and seems better against combo.
What would you cut to fit mirror entity in?
Damping matric is pretty cool, but we already have a great MU vs twin, and we can still lock melira with 2 champions or mark of asylum + 2 of any sisters (granted this is harder than just matrix, but is it worth the slots?). Imo mark of asylum >>> spellskite for board protection. Spellskite doesn't save you from firespout, which is a real pain for us. It also dies to double punishing fire (not too hard), and is generally much more vulnerable than mark.
Last edited by Maëlig; 10-09-2011 at 07:54 AM.
This deck seems great against everything aggro, good against combo that uses creatures but bad against other combo decks and then there is control - which can't be easy.
Relic of Progenitus out of the board answers melira by removing the creatures they sac + that combined with mark and the Champions ought to be enough imo. So boarding in 8 cards should turn the match in Soul Sisters favor.
If we need Mark of the Asylum 5-6 the deck could play Rune-Tail Kitsune, just an idea.
I am building this deck for sure - if the format turns out to be as red as it seems this deck will rock - so far it's been great.
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