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Thread: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

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    [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Innistrad's release allows me to celebrate by brewing a deck for every format. So come celebrate Worldchange with me!

    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._The_Year.html

    Those interested in what I think about the recent bannings, go check out the bonus section.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by the article
    Sure, just about everybody was playing Missteps.
    Isn't ubiquity the number one hallmark of a card that needs to be banned?

    I do not understand the people ringing the village bell.

    "Combo is coming...Oh no!" Misstep leaving will almost assuredly bring some more combo back into the top tables, but how is that such a bad thing? Legacy has never, ever been a combo-dominated format in its history. And it existed without Misstep until very recently.
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  3. #3

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Legacy has never, ever been a combo-dominated format in its history. And it existed without Misstep until very recently.
    I'd argue that, when legacy metagames are healthy, it's never been combo-dominated. Flash and Worldgorger Dragon both resulted in quite unhealthy metagames.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    I'm unsure about this at the moment. During the months leading up to the printing of mental misstep, the Hatfields began putting up pretty consistent results with high tide. If the only thing that was keeping that deck from becoming the most dominant deck in legacy was the price tag on candelabra, I don't believe that is a healthy format. 'Everyone has a decent shot, except Dr. Moneybags who has the best shot by a substantial margin' seems like a terrible way to determine the outcome of a tournament.

    The rest of my opinions about the banning of mental misstep I have already discussed in great length in the Reactions thread, and I don't believe reiterating them here will serve much of a purpose, so I guess all that is left is to wait and see.

  5. #5

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by evanmartyr View Post
    I'd argue that, when legacy metagames are healthy, it's never been combo-dominated. Flash and Worldgorger Dragon both resulted in quite unhealthy metagames.
    Actually, I didn't mind the old "1.5" where cards like Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mana Drain, and Illusionary Mask (pre-errata) were legal. I miss that format more than anything else.

  6. #6

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Thanks for reading, guys!

    @Finn: I disagree. Ubiquity in itself shouldn't be a reason to ban a card. Otherwise Fetchlands should probably make it on the list in the blink of an eye.
    Before you tell me "but those are manasources", think about this:
    You allow for that exception because mana is a basic resource necessary to play the game - but easy access to five colored mana isn't. Actually I'd argue the only reason many of the decks in Legacy are any good at all is because they get to cherry-pick the best spells of multiple colors at essentially zero cost. These decks can only exist because colorfixing is insane in this format and that invalidates a large number of other strategies and we're all fine with it.

    All this to say cards that are available without needing any commitment but provide a strong effect are likely to turn up all over the format even if they don't break it. That doesn't mean they do anything to the format that actually requires banning.
    The fact that a card is everywhere doesn't invalidate anything as long as it doesn't cause decks to all use exactly the same basic engine (different from something like Skullclamp - the only card ever banned for ubiquity, afaik - which ends up making any strategy not based on one-toughness creatures unviable) or follow the same strategy.

    Also, I'm not afraid of combo making a comeback per se. The only reason I mentioned it is that I perceive what I described as a possibility, and not one I'm particularly looking forward to should it come to pass. Combo is fine. Dominant combo isn't. And in my experience whenever you take something that has held an archetype down away, that archetype will usually rebound stronger than it was before because the oppression necessitated tuning against a much more efficient answer than is now available.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Your comparison to fetchlands is not terribly useful, Karsten. In the Legacy decks that I have created over the years: Welder-Survival, Dirt, Land Ho! (renamed aggro-loam at some point), Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Four Horsemen, others I cant remember: I used fetchlands where appropriate. Combo, control, aggro, every color, I used 'em. But I also used Plains where appropriate. Best for the job is not the same as best for every job. Fetchlands have not replaced basic lands or even duals. They operate with them. MM, was occupying design space that will now have to either be spot removal or a weaker counter or Engineered Explosives, or whetever. It replaced all of those during its tenure, and all of those decks will be significantly weaker now that they can not dominate turn 1 on the draw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Forsythe
    Skullclamp was banned in Standard, frankly, because it was everywhere.
    Article: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/daily/af17
    Black Vise in Standard was nearly the same thing, appearing in a variety of decks, even those with Hymn and Hyppie, and often just so that players actually had something to get out of their hand on turn one in case of an opponent's Black Vise. And That is another strong point. The simplest and most effective defense against Misstep was Misstep.

    Finally, by you taking the position that ubiquity is not ample reason to ban a card, you are denying that the card is ubiquitious because it is overpowered. Players just all happened to like the card for some other reason then? Just because the card is not the one doing the killing does not mean it is not the problem.

    I figured your head was on straight with regards to combo. I did not mean to imply that you were amongst the town criers.

    Respectfully,
    Finn
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  8. #8
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    I don't see how your argument is structurally different from someone argueing a ban for fetch-lands. Fetch lands are everywhere because they are overpowered as well, even though they don't kill your opponent (excluding steppe lynx).

    Fetchlands have not replaced basic lands or even duals. They operate with them. MM, was occupying design space.
    Emm, what? Just because people run 4 cards in their deck that could potentially answer a card that can potentially be cast on the first turn, doesn't mean it's "occupying design space" at all, but let's take a step backward for a second. Your comment tells us nothing. Every card in this game occupies design space, but I can only assume that you meant "limits design space", because otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for you to explicitly name this for mental misstep. This is like saying Swords to Plowshares is "occupying design space" of creatures. It's also occupying design space of spot removal and its also occupying design space for 1CC spells and its occupying design space of the color white, in fact its occupying design space of every color in the game since each deck can run fetch lands and thus each deck can run STP over other forms of 1CC/spotremoval/creaturehate/instants/name_characteristic_here.

    A very easy solution would have been to make a 1CC version of Vexing Shusher/troll ascetic with some added utility relevant to their tribes only. This way tribal would have an improved chance of winning and MM didnt have to get banned.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Your comparison to fetchlands is not terribly useful, Karsten. In the Legacy decks that I have created over the years: Welder-Survival, Dirt, Land Ho! (renamed aggro-loam at some point), Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Four Horsemen, others I cant remember: I used fetchlands where appropriate. Combo, control, aggro, every color, I used 'em. But I also used Plains where appropriate. Best for the job is not the same as best for every job. Fetchlands have not replaced basic lands or even duals. They operate with them. MM, was occupying design space that will now have to either be spot removal or a weaker counter or Engineered Explosives, or whetever. It replaced all of those during its tenure, and all of those decks will be significantly weaker now that they can not dominate turn 1 on the draw.
    All you're really saying is that if people can't play Misstep they'd have to play another weaker card with a similar role in its slot. How is that not true of every powerful card in the format? If Brainstorm were banned people would have to play Ponder or Preordain. If StP were banned they'd have to play Path to Exile. If Fetchlands were banned they'd have to play shocklands or something. And on and on and on.

    Occupies design space? Yeah, of course. Every strong card in the format occupies design space by virtue of being a strong card.

    Out of curiosity, were you ever in favor of banning Tarmogoyf? Because if being so good at its role that it's an automatic inclusion in any deck that can run it is grounds enough for banning, then it's hard to think of a more fitting target for it, no?

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Don't forget Tops Zilla, I'm sure the slower decks will play Top if Brainstorm were banned, while the faster aggro-control decks will utilize Ponder more often (esp since if it pumps Goyf).

    If Brainstorm was banned, it's R&D's end on failing to see what would replace Brainstorm, and in this case, Top will almost universally replace it (it's slightly slower but provides a 'brainstorm' effect every turn and fights black discard equally well if not better). Also, Top was on our whine banlist for the longest time, I won't be surprised if we're whining about Tops in the next few months.
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    REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalwalker View Post
    If Brainstorm was banned, it's R&D's end on failing to see what would replace Brainstorm, and in this case, Top will almost universally replace it (it's slightly slower but provides a 'brainstorm' effect every turn and fights black discard equally well if not better). Also, Top was on our whine banlist for the longest time, I won't be surprised if we're whining about Tops in the next few months.
    This makes me rage SO HARD AT YOU. Top is about 5 billion times worse than Brainstorm. This is so wrong.


    Almost 80% of Legacy decks can run Brainstorm optimally. About 15-20% can run Top. Do you not know why?

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Lol, did I say Top was better than Brainstorm? Why you so mad? Top is going to see play now even with Brainstorm being around. MM was the reason why Top diminished for decks relying on using Tops to win. IF brainstorm was banned, I'll bet my *insert whatever* that Top will be even more played than it ever will, as long as people still intend to play control instead of jumping to fast aggro/combo decks.

    The truth is, Brainstorm is only as powerful as the format its defined in. If you have Brainstorm with little fetchlands, it's a pretty terrible instant-cantrip. But the amazing thing about Brainstorm is that in an eternal format, with fetchland, the U-instant speed to fix your draws or potentially recall yourself (with a fetchland) is very very powerful. At the moment, Brainstorm is just universally better because of its cost-efficieny:power level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Holy out-of-context quotes, Batman! You are quoting half a thought. You guys can't even read to the end of a sentence? Wtf. Don't you see that on turn one or zero it was ALL those other things? It was about a dozen cards in four slots. Played Disenchant for Aether Vial, STP for Nacatl, Spell Pierce for Brainstorm, etc. It did something blue has no business being able to do - start the game on turn 2 instead of turn 1 - exactly as I warned it would the last time Mons and I got into this discussion. I am not saying they have to play similar cards. They have to play Dissimilar cards to do everything it does - lots of different ones, all at once. You guys are making my point for me. Blue control strategies want to get past their fragile stage when an early permanent can undo them. That is what this card does, and why it was awful in nonblue decks - also just like I said. And it does this while still countering other spells too.

    Good riddance. R&D should have known better.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Holy out-of-context quotes, Batman! You are quoting half a thought. You guys can't even read to the end of a sentence? Wtf. Don't you see that on turn one or zero it was ALL those other things? It was about a dozen cards in four slots. Played Disenchant for Aether Vial, STP for Nacatl, Spell Pierce for Brainstorm, etc. It did something blue has no business being able to do - start the game on turn 2 instead of turn 1 - exactly as I warned it would the last time Mons and I got into this discussion. I am not saying they have to play similar cards. They have to play Dissimilar cards to do everything it does - lots of different ones, all at once. You guys are making my point for me. Blue control strategies want to get past their fragile stage when an early permanent can undo them. That is what this card does, and why it was awful in nonblue decks - also just like I said. And it does this while still countering other spells too.

    Good riddance. R&D should have known better.
    QFT, really. But let's not turn this thread into another Reaction thread, it's beating a dead horse. Some people can't/won't see the wood for the trees anyway.


    On to the article, I quite enjoyed reading your attempts at brewing new decks. the Modern and Legacy ones seem particularly interesting. My view on MM is totally different (I fully support the ban), but an enjoyable article nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post

    Oh ya, there was that SCG article with a deck called Laxstorm. If you ask me, it reminds me more of a laxative brand and not the player (no offence to Ari Lax).

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Holy out-of-context quotes, Batman!
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    You guys can't even read that on turn one I Played Disenchant. I warned You guys Blue control strategies want an early permanent. That is why nonblue decks still countering other spells too.
    I am outraged by this comment. Not only do you play disenchant, your sentences are grammatically incorrect.

  16. #16

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    @Everybody: Thanks for reading (and enjoying)!

    @Finn: Actually, I think the reason so many people were arguing against you isn't that they necessarily disagree with the ban or didn't understand your point but that they agree with my pov as far as ubiquity is concerned. To illustrate:

    This is a valid and very relevant argument as to why Misstep could have needed the banhammer (even though I disagree with your point of view on that):

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Holy out-of-context quotes, Batman! You are quoting half a thought. You guys can't even read to the end of a sentence? Wtf. Don't you see that on turn one or zero it was ALL those other things? It was about a dozen cards in four slots. Played Disenchant for Aether Vial, STP for Nacatl, Spell Pierce for Brainstorm, etc. It did something blue has no business being able to do - start the game on turn 2 instead of turn 1 - exactly as I warned it would the last time Mons and I got into this discussion. I am not saying they have to play similar cards. They have to play Dissimilar cards to do everything it does - lots of different ones, all at once. You guys are making my point for me. Blue control strategies want to get past their fragile stage when an early permanent can undo them. That is what this card does, and why it was awful in nonblue decks - also just like I said. And it does this while still countering other spells too.
    You might realize that you didn't once mention its ubiquity here. That's why I brought up the Fetchlands. They're everywhere, they lock at least as many decks out of contention as Misstep ever could (everything mono-colored that isn't a tribal deck for starters - splashing is just so easy) and still everybody is fine with them being around.
    I wasn't trying to say MM isn't banworthy because it's like a Fetchland, just disagreeing with you that ubiquity in itself is a reason to ban. As to that Forsythe quote, I don't think Skullclamp would have been a problem if it hadn't made running 1-toughness creatures a far superior strategy to everything else. If it had simply been a four of in every single standard deck but the format had been highly diverse otherwise (especially strategy-wise), nothing would have needed to be done (just look at Ponder in T2 during the last year - as prevalent as Jace yet completely under the radar).

    Ubiquity isn't necessarily caused by a card being overpowered. It can be caused by a card being powerful but simply too easy to play to ignore. Similar to the Fetchlands, a card that can be run in any deck at nearly no cost that provides a very useful capacity (in MM's case stack-control, color-security for the Fetches) is going to be nearly everywhere even if it's only of a "fair" powerlevel in the abstract exactly because there is essentially no cost to running it.. Imagine Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, Knight of the Relinquary or Hymn to Tourach not having color-requirements. How many decks would you expect not to run them in that case?

    Respectfully,
    Carsten
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    @Everybody: Thanks for reading (and enjoying)!

    @Finn: Actually, I think the reason so many people were arguing against you isn't that they necessarily disagree with the ban or didn't understand your point but that they agree with my pov as far as ubiquity is concerned. To illustrate:

    This is a valid and very relevant argument as to why Misstep could have needed the banhammer (even though I disagree with your point of view on that):



    You might realize that you didn't once mention its ubiquity here. That's why I brought up the Fetchlands. They're everywhere, they lock at least as many decks out of contention as Misstep ever could (everything mono-colored that isn't a tribal deck for starters - splashing is just so easy) and still everybody is fine with them being around.
    I wasn't trying to say MM isn't banworthy because it's like a Fetchland, just disagreeing with you that ubiquity in itself is a reason to ban. As to that Forsythe quote, I don't think Skullclamp would have been a problem if it hadn't made running 1-toughness creatures a far superior strategy to everything else. If it had simply been a four of in every single standard deck but the format had been highly diverse otherwise (especially strategy-wise), nothing would have needed to be done (just look at Ponder in T2 during the last year - as prevalent as Jace yet completely under the radar).

    Ubiquity isn't necessarily caused by a card being overpowered. It can be caused by a card being powerful but simply too easy to play to ignore. Similar to the Fetchlands, a card that can be run in any deck at nearly no cost that provides a very useful capacity (in MM's case stack-control, color-security for the Fetches) is going to be nearly everywhere even if it's only of a "fair" powerlevel in the abstract exactly because there is essentially no cost to running it.. Imagine Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, Knight of the Relinquary or Hymn to Tourach not having color-requirements. How many decks would you expect not to run them in that case?

    Respectfully,
    Carsten
    Your fetch/dual land scenario comparison falls apart because the way you combat duals and fetches is to use cards that are not fetch and duals. Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Stifle, etc. The way you fought Mental Misstep is to play Mental Misstep, so it basically degenerates into every deck that cares about Misstep playing Misstep, as opposed to every deck that cares about Fetch/Dual doesn't have to play Fetch/Dual (though they do, since it is very good). I can't think of another instance of a card where that sort of circular logic happens (where playing Card A is the best answer to Card A).

    (I personally loved Misstep and the meta it created, and I also think it got banned too soon if it did need to be banned at all)
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  18. #18
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    OK, I see what you are saying Karsten. In the days of Jace in Standard, Ponder had become a staple in every deck. That was the child of a ridiculous percentage of decks all looking the same. In the strict sense, you are right. Ponder was in all those decks and not banworthy. Of course, so was Island. They were both cogs in a juggernaut. Does Island also make your case then? Or should we just accept that when there is a broken card, it takes staples to make that card actually succeed in a deck?

    As I pointed out (and xeraseth echoed), there is a difference with Mental Misstep. When Darksteel came out bringing Skullclamp, Tooth and Nail became Elf and Nail, powered by Skullclamp. You also had Ravager Affinity with Skullclamp. Any deck that did not have a way of adapting by infusing lots of little creatures ceased to exist. The only way to fight Skullclamp was with Skullclamp. Same with Black Vise years ago. We were packing Black Vise to avoid dying to Black Vise. Same thing was going on with Mental Misstep. That is a categorical difference from your example in either fetchlands or Ponder.

    Oh, and I do not agree that single color decks are not viable.
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...eath-and-Taxes
    It specifically picks on decks full of fetchlands. And there are plenty of single-colored tribal decks as well. Fetchlands are not ubiquitous or infallible.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Fetchlands are not ubiquitous or infallible.
    They're not infallible, but they're certainly ubiquitous. More so than Mental Misstep ever was. That isn't to say that Misstep didn't need banning, but Fetchlands are more ubiquitous than any other card in the format.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: That Time of the Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Holy out-of-context quotes, Batman! You are quoting half a thought. You guys can't even read to the end of a sentence? Wtf.
    Hmm I really need to read the rules one day, sorry Zilla.

    I will say this though, the pro MM group really likes to take half a quote and compare Mental Misstep to something as silly as fetchlands.

    I think comparing Mental Misstep to cards like skullclamp and black vise is the best analogy.
    However, some people think those cards need to be taken off the ban list.

    I understood what you were saying Finn, however I am in the anti MM group.

    We just got to be thankful WotC made a correct decision, and stop trying to convince others elsewise.

    And you get super props from me Finn for being successful with a deck like D&T during a supposed combo winter.

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