Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 40

Thread: Ritual Gifts

  1. #1
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Ritual Gifts

    One of the most successful Vintage decks of all time is Meandeck Gifts, it used Mana Drain with Gifts Ungiven to win using Yawgmoth's Will. The deck was only ever seen in Vintage because key cards like Yawgmoth's Will, and Mana Drain were not available to other formats. While Gifts was eventually restricted in vintage. Before the decks demise Team Meandeck's rival, Brian Demars, created a ritual based version called Twilight Gifts. With the printing of Past in Flames we can use Legacy rituals to do Vintage gifts did.
    With this version of Ritual based Gifts You will get rare turn one wins but more often you will win on turn 3-5, you will have no trouble living until turn 5 against most decks as you have a large amount of control magic and easy access to bounce. The deck is designed to use cantrips and Merchant Scroll to build into a perfect Gifts pile, and you will also have many chances to dig for protection.
    Like TES' and ANT's play of Infernal tutor -> Ad Nauseam, the deck needs 7 mana to win, in this case casting rituals then Past in flames The difference is that you cast Gifts Ungiven the turn before which nets you at least one ritual. Also like TES and ANT you use cantrips to find the missing combo pieces to win with. If you have enough land on the table then Gifts Ungiven becomes a one card win condition.
    One of the reasons to play this deck is that it has a consistent strategy that unfolds similarly every match. Where with some decks your flying by the seat of your pants hoping the next top deck will win you the game, with this deck you know what you're going to do next and can anticipate any problems your opponent may bring to your doorstep. The deck has a standard game plan of;

    1) Cantrip into mana and protection.
    2) Find gifts with Merchant Scroll.
    3) Cast gifts and pass the turn.
    4) Win the game with back up.

    Often you will cantrip into Gifts and rituals and use merchant scroll to find your protection/disruption, using gifts to find disruption is common also and against aggressive decks and your protection will usually be used to buy you more turns. Since you will be casting cantrips as well as drawing protection after turn 2 trading one of your protection/diruption spells for one of their best threats is to your advantage since you'll draw another the next turn. The standard game plan can be modified for every situation based on play skill and other factors.
    There are several major advantages of this deck over TES or ANT and they are not limited to playing Force of Will. The biggest is that the deck uses Merchant Scroll as its main engine which can act as Force of will 5-8, bounce 2-5, brainstorm 5-8, and multiply sideboard options post board (it can actually find any blue card in the deck other than itself and ponder). It also uses Gifts ungiven which can act as counter magic when used to find the varied suit of answers this deck contains. By casting gifts for FoW + Duress + Misdirection +Pyroblast, puts two control elements in your hand with one card.

    How the deck works.

    The plan is to cast gifts ungiven for three accelerants and Past in Flames, then cast whatever your opponent gives you. Finally flash backing gifts and the rituals to search for a second copy of Past in Flames(if you flash backed the first copy) and accelerants and win with Empty the Warrens, or Tendrils of Agony.

    The standard pile in the tri color version is currently,
    ---------------------------
    Dark Ritual
    Rite of Flame
    Cabal Ritual
    Past in Flames
    ----------------------------
    in the U/R version Substitute Seething Song for Dark Ritual, and Pyretic Ritual for Cabal Ritual.

    The worst case scenario that your opponent can give you with gifts is usually Past in Flames and dark Ritual in the tri color and pyretic in the U/R. You will also almost always need another accelerant to cast the pile. The bare minimum to go off in this deck is one blue land two red lands and one black land and in most cases a ritual.

    If you receive Rite of Flame and past in flames The typical game plan would look something like this



    Lands are

    b-> ritual (from hand)
    R->Rite of Flame (from gifts)
    1BBR:-> Past in Flames (floating UBR)
    R-> Cast Rite of flame
    B->Cast Dark Ritual
    BBB-> Cast Dark Ritual
    BBBBBB-> Cast Cabal ritual
    11 mana (URRRBBBBBB:)
    UBBR->Gifts (for ritual, rite, cabal ritual, Empty the warrens)
    (7 mana)
    receive at least one ritual from gifts,
    (5-6 mana)
    Flash back Past in Flames , the remaining rituals and empty the warrens for 30 goblins/ tendrils.

    If you flashed back the first Past in flames, then also have more mana from casting an additional ritual earlier. Cast the rituals you are able to, go for Past in flames in place of the Cabal Ritual with this casting of gifts. Flash back the rituals, then cast Empty the warrens/ tendrils.


    Sample Lists


    Tri color version

    4 Force of Will
    3 Duress
    1 Misdirection
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Echoing Truth
    4 Merchant Scroll
    4 Gifts Ungiven
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Rite of Flame
    2 Cabal Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    2 Past in Flames
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    After testing it I wondered if a U/R list would be viable. My number crunching was always for a non threshed cabal ritual which is essentially a pyretic ritual and seething song has the same bonus mana as dark ritual. After a little dabbling I came up with the following list.


    U/R version


    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Misdirection
    1 Wipe Away
    4 Merchant Scroll
    4 Gifts Ungiven
    4 Seething Song
    4 Rite of Flame
    2 Pyretic Ritual
    2 Past in Flames
    1 Empty the Warrens
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Mountain


    Card Choices

    Disruption:

    Force of Will: This deck is slower than traditional combo deck and benefits greatly from this card in when faced with a faster opponent. Even against zoo or goblins countering the first creatures means they're not dealing you damage until the third turn. This is extremely relevant.

    Spell pierce: This shores up the combo match and can be tutored up with gifts and merchant scroll.

    Duress: this helps fight control (poorly) and has impact on matches spell pierce doesn't

    Pyroblast: this helps protect your combo, is strong against counterbalance and merfolk and can be tutored for with gifts to win counter wars.

    Misdirection: this is mainly a solution to be searched up with gifts in counter wars however it's also good against discard. (hymn to tourach/thoughtseize)

    Bounce:

    Echoing Truth: This works well against dredge and goblins as well as being a catch all bounce spell. It can be found with merchant scroll.

    Wipe Away: This is the best solution for counterbalance, the main drawback is that if you can cast Merchant scroll to find it, then you probably could have cast echoing truth.

    Chain of Vapor: The lack of permanents in this deck means that this is a one sided bounce for (U) .

    Tutors:

    Merchant Scroll: This finds every blue card in the deck but itself and ponder.

    Gifts Ungiven : this is the main engine in the deck and can find most things, usually you can manipulate the pile to allow you to use it to get whatever you want.

    Draw:

    Brainstorm: The best draw spell in the deck, don't ever cast it on turn one.

    Ponder: A decent draw spell on turn one, better later.

    Gitaxian Probe: I see this as less a draw spell and more an information gatherer, with the added bonus of lubricating my deck.


    Mana:

    Rite of flame: These are fairly necessary in both versions


    Tri color:

    Dark ritual: Necessary in the tricolor version
    Cabal ritual: necessary at this point.

    U/R:
    Seething Song: These are the equivalent of the tricolor's dark ritual.
    Pyretic Ritual: The deck needs a certain number of rituals to function these are what's left.

    Tendrils of Agony Vs Empty the Warrens

    I prefer Warrens due to randomly getting 6-8 storm on turn 2-3. The Argument for tendrils is that it's a game winner on the spot and that that saves matches that go to time or where creatures can't win the game due to board position. While using both is an option, that means you have the chance of drawing either or both in your opening hand. I see no clean cut solution at the moment other than personal preference.

    Burning wish:

    Burning Wish allows for both tendrils and warrens to be used in the same slot main deck, the drawback is that the increased cost diminished the amount of times you'll be able to cast Empty the Warrens. It also means the sideboard will have fewer slots.


    Going forward some of the following questions need to be answered,

    1) What is the most effective disruption suite,
    2) How many lands is Ideal,
    3) What sideboard options are best.
    4) Tendrils Vs Empty the Warrens
    5) U/R or Tri Color
    6) Sideboard


    Match up Descriptions are Coming.
    Last edited by John Cox; 10-10-2011 at 03:23 PM.

  2. #2
    Member
    bennotsi's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Amsterdam
    Posts

    47

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Thanks for the nice primer! I think however that new decks should not start in the Established forums, but anyway...

    I like the really idea of using Gifts Ungiven in combination with Past in Flames. I think that in Legacy you should play black for Tendrils, unless you can make easily make enough storm to make Grapeshot the primary kill condition.

    Have you considered Gamble and Entomb as tutors? I think they might not be too bad with Past in Flames, especially when you plan on casting it twice on your combo turn.

    I'm also not too sure why you shouldn't try to fit in Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor. I think they're just too good not to play.

    The problem of playing only Past in Flames as a storm engine is that you are really vulnerable to graveyard hate game 2 and 3. You might consider fitting in some other storm engines (Ad Nauseam, Diminishing Returns, Doomsday) or Burning Wish with some cards in the sideboard. But I understand that you don't want to redesign TES.

    1) What is the most effective disruption suite,
    My preference is towards a combination of Orim's Chant and Silence and Duress. This would mean splashing another color.. I don't like Force of Will in combo decks, but then again I'm used to playing Lion's Eye Diamond. I'm also not convinced that Pyroblast is a maindeck card, unless you play Painter's Servant off course.

    You should try to come up with some arguments why this deck would be a better choice than TES or ANT and especially why it's better than Doomsday (DDFT). Ritual Gifts is probably slower than TES and ANT, and I'm not sure that it's faster than DDFT either. If Ritual Gifts is about as fast as DDFT, the question is which deck wins more consistently and is more resilient to hate pieces.
    Last edited by bennotsi; 10-10-2011 at 03:57 AM. Reason: typos

  3. #3
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    I'm not extremely worried about graveyard hate. I had originally tested with a list that ran 2 bounce and tendrils + warrens main deck. What ended up happening post board was that I never boarded anything against grave hate. I would cast gifts for scroll+warrens+wipe away+gifts, and get either bounce or a way of putting enough pressure down that I could win with tendrils in 2-3 turns. If need be something like that can happen in the side board.

    The problem with LED is that it can't be recured with Past in Flames, Infernal is good but only when I'm hellbent, If I went hellbent to get gifts, I would have to cast it the same turn I tutored it. I would end up needing 13 mana!!! that before mana for chant. If I pass the turn and keep my hand and use force of will I need
    7 mana and only 3-4 from lands.

    Entomb/gamble is a neat idea, It's something that would need a lot of ritual effects but could be way better than gifts. I think it's a different deck.

  4. #4

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    This doesn't really have anything to offer over other Storm decks and dies horribly to Faerie Macabre, I mean compare this to Doomsday and being able to do really good plays like just resolving Dday and getting Emakrul or the resiliency of High Tide combo - which is actually faster than you.

  5. #5
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    This doesn't really have anything to offer over other Storm decks and dies horribly to Faerie Macabre, I mean compare this to Doomsday and being able to do really good plays like just resolving Dday and getting Emakrul or the resiliency of High Tide combo - which is actually faster than you.
    The main problem with doomsday is that has a very limited answer suite. When it does resolve Doomsday it has a lot of tricks it can pull off to win with, but this deck can play the control role and make sure doomsday never gets there.

    High tide has a lot of advantages, but it's actually less resilient than this, and if you run Empty the warrens as I do, you have potential for much faster goldfishes.
    You also have to remember that winning at magic isn't about speed but winning and if high tide is faster than this deck, that doesn't necessarily make it a better deck.

  6. #6

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    The deck seems a little land light at 16. Have you had any trouble with this? It seems like you would want to hit your land drops consistently and 18 would be a better number.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  7. #7
    Site Contributor
    Admiral_Arzar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2010
    Location

    Denver, CO
    Posts

    1,289

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    dies horribly to Faerie Macabre.
    LOLOLOL. If you're going to trash someone's deck, at least use cards people actually play as examples.
    Lord of the Chalice

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
    Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz

  8. #8
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by bennotsi View Post
    Thanks for the nice primer! I think however that new decks should not start in the Established forums, but anyway...
    It was already an established deck in Vintage. The strategy is sound, if newly re-created with Past in Flames.

    I love the fact that you can play 4 Yawgmoth's Will (Past in Flames) in the deck. This alone seems like enough of a reason to try and put a list together.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  9. #9
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    This deck has no place in "established" or we can place ol' Standards Solar Flare or ol' Vintages Control Slaver in our DTB forum too, Mr. Safety

    Topic: I guess you need to do some research WHY Meandeck Gifts was good in Vintage:

    Moxen accelerate the deck and together with chain of vapor they create masses of mana and strom. Powerhouse Gifts targets like Black Lotus, Demonic Tutor, tolarian academy, Will (that let you replay moxen and shit), ancestral Recall, Time Walk ans Tinker are not legal in Legacy. Turn 1 scroll for FoW or Ancestral Recall was common play. Etc.

    All you have there is "another" Recoup and a turn 4-5 Combo (depending on if you want to "waste" rituals for gifts) that will be raced by meerfolk and Zoo.

    If you want to build around PiF take a look at brainfreeze as others already did
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  10. #10
    Member
    joemauer's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2011
    Location

    Louisiana
    Posts

    683

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    How did this deck become established? It sounds new and developmental.

  11. #11
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    The deck is polished and well tested, hence it is in the established forum.



    @ Amon Amarth

    I'm not sure what I would cut for the extra two lands. Do you have any suggestions.

  12. #12
    Member
    Necro's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2009
    Location

    The Netherlands
    Posts

    3

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cox View Post
    The deck is polished and well tested, hence it is in the established forum.



    @ Amon Amarth

    I'm not sure what I would cut for the extra two lands. Do you have any suggestions.
    That is not the definition off well polished..

  13. #13
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cox View Post
    The deck is polished and well tested, hence it is in the established forum.
    I lol'd. With this mindset any further discussion is a waste.
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  14. #14
    No hay trabajo malo. Lo malo es tener que trabajar.
    lebarion's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Location

    São Paulo, Brasil
    Posts

    123

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Nice deck!
    My team's been working on a UR deck that abuses PiF, too. But in fact, i prefer your version than ours
    I believe you should add Brain Freeze to the UR version at least. Besides being another kill condition, it can be card advantage after a resolved PiF.
    # The Bizarro Super Powers Team

  15. #15
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by lebarion View Post
    Nice deck!
    My team's been working on a UR deck that abuses PiF, too. But in fact, i prefer your version than ours
    I believe you should add Brain Freeze to the UR version at least. Besides being another kill condition, it can be card advantage after a resolved PiF.
    I've been playing with brainfreeze in the sideboard to deal with storm combo and it's been working nicely as its also a win condition for my deck as well. It is something I have considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necro View Post
    That is not the definition off well polished..
    The mana base that Amon Amarth is one of several issues I've outlined as needing Improvements at the end of the primer. This is something I want comments on.

  16. #16
    (previously Metalwalker)
    GGoober's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2008
    Location

    Houston, TX
    Posts

    1,647

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Nice deck. I see potential in this list with Gifts/PiF. How do you fight GY hate without losing speed? Honestly I would try to see if you can play Chants/Silence, maybe forgo the fetchland manabase with rainbow lands and more Preordains/Ponders, or play the UR build with a URw splash.

    I think you need at least one Pact of Negation somewhere in the MD for a gifts pile (so you can grab FoW + Pact + 2 spells) making the decision harder for your opponents and giving you more relevant cards with a Gifts pile.
    Decks that I care about:
    Steel Stompy
    UWx Landstill
    Dreadstalker
    DDFT (10% practice)

    Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

  17. #17
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Fighting graveyard hate isn't too big of an issue, merchant scroll can find bounce or force of will to deal with graveyard hate so you have more access to it pre and post board.
    One interesting Side Board option is a second copy of tendrils or Empty the warrens and more bounce, that would enable a gifts pile for Bounce/ Force of will+ scroll+ Empty the Warrens+ ritual/ Force of will, this means I'll get either some pressure in the form of goblins this turn, or remove/counter the Grave Hate next turn and win from there.

    I Can't see Pact working better than Misdirection.

    Orim's chant and Silence could replace spell pierce in the U/R making it UR/w. The problem with that is that to win you would need which eliminates any advantage you gained from playing over the tricolor list. if you played the tricolor list with chant you would need to win, and that isn't happening.

  18. #18
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Location

    Albany NY, used to live in Eugene OR
    Posts

    20

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Both your lists have only 58 cards in them. :(
    cool idea, the only issue i see is that the deck is cold to an extirpate on PiF.

    and the reason Pact may be better the misdirect is that you may not have a blue spell to pitch.

  19. #19
    Member
    joemauer's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2011
    Location

    Louisiana
    Posts

    683

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cox View Post
    The deck is polished and well tested, hence it is in the established forum.
    With only 58 cards in the maindecks?

  20. #20
    Member
    John Cox's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts

    372

    Re: Ritual Gifts

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.philgood View Post
    Both your lists have only 58 cards in them. :(
    cool idea, the only issue i see is that the deck is cold to an extirpate on PiF.

    and the reason Pact may be better the misdirect is that you may not have a blue spell to pitch.
    The decks have 60 cards,
    If I cast gifts for 4 cards that aren't winning me the game immediately, pact is useless too. Misdirection is useful against many other things.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)