I'm curious as to what your two losses came from at the Jupiter event. Not getting there? is 4 pieces of just anti-blue disruption enough? I really want pacts here since flashing them back is also zero, plus if it resolves I imagine you are only using them to win. and having a hard counter seems nice. either leyline seems really bad (void, sanctity) with the exception of warrens getting around them. once I get my hands on some warps and 2 more past in flames i may give this a whirl. I'm just worried about good opponents who play blue. since everything else is mainly a bye.
that is in my opinion the main question when playing any storm deck: How is my blue matchup? How can I beat blue decks packing disruption?
edit: im just worried about surgical/ extirpate( don't think you can beat an extirpate if people know whats going on) and pact and flusterstorm counter surgical where as blasts do not.
Against RUG basically one game I got choked and the other game I misplayed - We built up hands and I cast Empty the Warrens, he had two Stifles and I only had one REB. My misplay was that somewhere in the process of going off I shuffled away a PiF that I could have recast the next turn to go off again with Empty. My other lost was to stacks where game one I forgot that he had Platinum Emperion in his deck and I waited a turn before going off (I needed to Manamorphose into storm to have lethal) and he activated Forgemaster in response to Grapeshot. Game 2 he had turn 2 Chalice, turn 3 Wurmcoil, turn 4 Forgemaster and another Chalice after I warped the first one. That game if I drew a mana source after I warped I would have one but I failed to do so. Aka the games were fairly close and the RUG games were even closer.
You are right to be afraid to an extent of Surgical but don't be overly worried, unless they can counter all of your goblins then Surgical your Warrens and you can't get there off of Grapeshot you are in a decent position. I play REB over Pact because Pact is only good the turn you are going off which means it is bad if you want to EOT Intuition or if they Clique you on any turn you aren't going off. It is also a good answer to Delver which is quite scary against any storm deck.
If I cut Manamorphose I will probably throw a REB into the mainboard but otherwise I think 4 pieces of hate is definitely enough. A lot of games they have to use a Force against you and you are able to go off again. And sometimes you are a baller and just have enough mana to go off twice in one turn.
I mentioned this before but my 5 wins were all against blue decks ^^
Maybe I'm misreading, does Past in Flames give Flashback to spells not in your graveyard on resolution, or does it give Flashback to spells in your graveyard on resolution and there after i.e. after you resolve Past in Flames, you Flashback Intuition, your opponent discards 2 Grape Shots and now you can Flashback them both?Originally Posted by Anusien
I still dislike Probe, hand reading and cantripping aren't as good as just having the disruption density to push thru' your threats or /b and Duressing them instead, and added disruption density in the form of REB has a "blow out" effect on Merfolk as well because your disruption and kill all double as removal.
I think I like Ponder instead of Pre-Ordain as well, just because digging for Intuition and resolving it makes your match ups so much easier.
@jlagrav
I meant cantrips like dig cards ala Braisntorm, Ponder, Pre-Ordain.
ah I see. He already has 9 of a possible 12 in the deck, I can see cutting a Past in Flame (don't think you need all four) or a Manamorphose for more Ponders but idk if its necessary
The way Past in Flames works is that when you cast it, everything CURRENTLY in your graveyard gains flashback. That means that if you Intuition you have to flash back Past in Flames again to cast the two card that they put in your graveyard.
I casually tested some games against Bant yesterday and I'm now sure that I want the 3 Manamorphose in the deck, they definitely need to be in there for fixing. I also had a natural Grapeshot/PiF kill and I'm still pretty confident in their numbers in the deck. The biggest problem I had when I was running more cantrips is that as weird as this sounds sometimes you just have too many in your hand. Getting clogged with too many of them can actually kill you.
Bonus - For those of you learning to play the deck I have a puzzle from my games yesterday
Hand I kept on the draw - Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, Preordain, Lotus Petal, Intuition, Rite of Flame
I cast Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe making my hand -
Ancient Tomb, Manamorphose, Brainstorm, Preordain, Lotus Petal, Intuition, Seething Song, Rite of Flame
My opponent didn't have Force or Daze in his opener, assuming that you don't draw anything off of the Manamorphose and flashbacked Probes, what is the line of play?
Answer is in white below
Probe
Probe
Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb
Seething Song RRRRR
Manamorphose RRRUU
Intuition (Rite, Rite, PiF- assume PiF in hand) RU
Rite of Flame RRRRU
Past in Flames R
Probe
Probe
Rite of Flame RRRR
Seething Song RRRRRR
Manamorphose RRRRUU
Intuition (Rite of Flame, Grapeshot, Grapeshot - assume Grapeshot) RRU
Rite of Flame RRRRRU
Rite of Flame RRRRRRRU
Flashback PiF RRR
Rite of Flame RRRR
Grapeshot 19, Grapeshot 20
Last edited by andrewlb; 11-09-2011 at 06:20 PM.
How do you address the fact that people packing their sideboard with graveyard hate significantly hurts this deck? Any deck with graveyard hate in addition to storm hate in the 75 seems like an insurmountable hurdle. While the "defense" package of pyroblasts is quite nice against blue counterspells, it literally has little to no interaction whatsoever with graveyard and storm hate.
How do you get the first rite of flames to caster after the first intuition?
Your puzzle isn't complete, you should add a Rite of Flames in your hand after you played the Gitaxian Probes.
I'm an idiot sorry, I forgot to include the Rite in my hand hahaha, it was included in the solution but not the puzzle -.-
I understand that Graveyard hate is an issue but name the storm hate cards that people bring in against me... most people's boards include 3 spell pierces or something similar which almost does nothing against the deck. Flusterstorm is obnoxious but you can generally fight through it with Empty the Warrens or let it eat a Past in Flames. Empty the Warrens lets you fight both ends of the hate spectrum. The post board matches are really not as bad as you think they are.
An example - Game 2 I play turn 2 Ancient tomb and tap my lands for a Seething Song, do you Force? If you do you blew a Force on the song then you are down two cards it costs me a Seething Song, if not I have the chance of casting an Empty the Warrens that you can't deal with. Not every hand is going to be this great but Dazes and Spell pierces do less in this matchup then you would think
So the rite was the topdeck for the turn? Is this really a hand you should have kept on the draw?
Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, Preordain, Lotus Petal, Intuition, Seething Song
2 probes could be anything but are 4 damage. The petal could just get dazed. and seething song needs at least a tomb to play.
You have 3 chances to hit a land and if you don't you have Petal into Preordain, because of the relative power level of the hand yes I would. I also think that the SS in hand was a Rite of Flame and I drew the SS
Also - Put up how I sideboarded for the tournament
I don't think you need as many filtering cantrips when you are just jamming 4 of your engine. intuition also really wants you to run 3+ copies of a card. and naturally drawing the engine is really good.
that being said you can probably afford to cut some of the "cyclers" to add disruption, but they do generate essentially free storm and are really good when flashbacked.
I think I would personally would be comfortable with 5-6 pieces of protection. (pact, pierce, flusterstorm, more blasts). I'm working on finding room.
the mana isn't as tight as everyone thinks it is the 8 rituals + petals is pretty much good enough, you are rebuying rituals when you are going off anyway.
Your solution fails to take into account an opponent who isn't blindingly stupid. If they give you Past in Flames, you automatically get to cast it twice (and thus Intuition gets to find you kill cards instead of mana) making your board position near-lethal if you have extra accel (probable given your 3 free draws plus unknown cards). A decent player would give you Rite of Flame and make you draw into a win (still a good chance to happen given that you see at least 3 more cards that they know about, but way less certain than just giving you Past in Flames).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
No, if they give you the Rite you still have enough storm to Grapeshot them for 21
Probe
Probe
Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb
Seething Song RRRRR
Manamorphose RRRUU
Intuition (Rite, Rite, PiF- Rite in Hand) RU
Rite of Flame RRRU
Rite of Flame RRRRRRU
Past in Flames RR
Probe
Probe
Rite of Flame RRRRR
Seething Song RRRRRRR
Manamorphose RRRRRUU
Intuition (Grapeshot, Past in Flames, Rite of Flame - assume PiF or Rite) RRRU
Rite of Flame RRRRRRU
Rite of Flame RRRRRRRRU
Cast PiF RRRRR
Rite of Flame RRRRRR
Grapeshot 21
Enlightened Tutor + Ethersworn Canonist (this looks especially brutal as you can't even grapeshot it)
Green Sun Zenith + Gaddock Teeg
Pyrostatic Pillar
Thorn of Amethyst
Trinity Sphere
Chalice of the Void
Silence / Orim's Chant
etc..
The point is, the same exact cards that keep other storm deck (AnT, TES, High Tide, etc) affect this deck in similar ways, in addition to the graveyard hate that I honestly feel as though you just fold to. What do you do when someone plops a Tormod's Crypt down? What happens if someone has a Faerie Macabre or two in hand? You pretty much automatically lose the ability to "go off" and have zero ways to interact with these hate cards. Graveyard hate, storm hate, counterspells, and discard all pretty much congruently hurt this deck, something not any other deck has to deal with.
As a long time TES player who has a few minor accomplishments under his belt, let me address the backup plan of EtW. It's very good, and it wins more games than it probably should. However, there is certainly a reason decks don't use it as a main win condition--there are many ways to interact with the goblin token plan in most popular decks. Even moreso now that batterskull exists, in my opinion. EE, Deed, Ratchet Bomb, and sometimes just playing lots of dudes can halt an EtW strategy and leave things looking awkward.
That being said, this deck does seem to have a bit more of a "lets try this again" vibe going on if you fail to go off. Certainly much moreso than TES/ANT. That coupled with the unique pyroblast maindeck protection is alone enough to warrant me giving the deck a test. However I feel very strongly that the collateral hate that's going to be in 95% of tournament player's sideboards is going to be quite a speedbump in this deck's growth.
Ethersworn Cannonist - Can be killed with Grapeshot - Lotus Petal, Grapeshot as well as Wipe Away and Chaos Warp
Gaddock Teeg - Grapeshot, Chaos Warp, Wipe Away
Silence is only played in TES, Pyrostatic Pillar isn't played, Chalice is played in only a few decks and can be Warped/Wipe Away
All of the grave hate besides Faerie Macabre and Extirpate/Surgical can be killed with Chaos Warp/Wipe Away. People don't play Faerie Macabre and a lot of my board plan is based around surgical. If they EE your tokens/Firespout/whatever you play PiF to go off with Warrens again. Batterskull is a hindrance and that is why you play Chaos Warp in the board and not Chain of Vapor. I'm not saying that things are easy, but they are also not as hard as you think.
Well thats cool, but I think what naaru is trying to say is it seems difficult to play around both combo hate and GY hate. You basically ensure that every deck has something to stop you.
Matt Bevenour in real life
What I'm trying to say is that postboard you actually win 90% of your games if not more with Empty the Warrens, which is really only affected by Surgical Extraction and that isn't even super relevant. The matchups where you aren't on that plan postboard they only have about 3 pieces of hate which you can definitely handle.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
