How's about unban?

[DragoFireheart]

Unban all of these at the same time:


Goblin Recruiter
Survival of the Fittest
Earthcraft
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor


All of those legal at the same time should work each other out.

GR, EC and SotF avoid MMS, which allows the aggro player to be highly aggressive against blue decks.

MMS keeps MT in check.

GR, EC and SoTF could possibly make some aggro decks faster enough so they have a higher chance of beating combo decks game one. Along with MMS, aggro decks would have a better chance at fighting combo decks.

All of the yard hate (Surgical Extraction) helps keep SotF in check.

Course I could be horribly wrong and all hell breaks loose, but it'd be interesting to try.

[Antonius]

Has Fastbond already been discussed? It seems like it could be fair because the card is only really good if you already Crucible out (at which point, you'd need a third card, fetch or waste or whatever, to really gain value and a forth card, Zuran, to really do something) or in a deck that goes all in on playing multiple lands per turn. Like Lands.

[Gheizen64]

Would Worldgorger combo actually be playable or better than Reanimator?

I don't think it would even be played without Bazaar.

Turn 1 Black Vice in mono red burn is a huge beating for almost any deck, and is probably "too good" On the play, it will get in for 6 damage, maybe more depending on how the game plays out... and this is for a "fair" deck.

Vise isn't actually good in burn or any aggro list since it's a dead topdeck (i'd like to play something with galvanic blasts and vise however, no matter how bad). It's neat in stasis (a bit better than netsuke, but not that much since you actually don't care on casting it T1), but stasis can't win 2 games in 60 minutes so it's a moot point.

[ddt15]

Drago if they unban that combo hell will break loose.

think the really interesting cards to play with would be cards like Mind's Desire, Memory Jar, Channel, Fastbond, Hermit Druid, Goblin Recruiter or Gush, something that's potentially powerful but not necessarily broken that'd open up design space.

Umm... no.

[I am the brainwasher]

That seems like a fine idea!
Survival with Recruiter in the same decks seems hilarious.
Not talking about how nuts the cards are on their own.
Besides that, unbanning Mystical Tutor would only be possible if it goes hand in hand with further bannings. Having Entomb AND Show and Tell with it is just absurd.
Have you ever played against Reanimator currently? It is absurd on its own at the moment and pushing it over the top (where its already scratching at IMO) would do no good for the format. Regardless of which cards you unban.
I do understand the thought behind your post but the logic doesnt work out the way you want it to, obv. no insult intended.
When you unban Mental Mistep theres no way around banning Snapcaster with it, thats for sure. Blue would be really as degenerate as some already cry about it and would leave the format in an boring, unfun to play and choosing between 3/4 decks situation which would wreck the format completely.
Unbanning Earthcraft is fine btw, like the card, its effect and its way too fair in comparison to other cards beeing legal right now. Would love to see switching its place with S&T... .

[UnderwaterGuy]

Drago if they unban that combo hell will break loose.

I'm not so sure. We have Painter's/Grindstone and that seems like a pretty comparable combo to Earthcraft. Earthcraft would be harder to interrupt but it would be harder to assemble too.

The cards suggested by Final Fortune were a joke I assume.

[DragoFireheart]

That seems like a fine idea!
Survival with Recruiter in the same decks seems hilarious.
Not talking about how nuts the cards are on their own.
Besides that, unbanning Mystical Tutor would only be possible if it goes hand in hand with further bannings. Having Entomb AND Show and Tell with it is just absurd.
Have you ever played against Reanimator currently? It is absurd on its own at the moment and pushing it over the top (where its already scratching at IMO) would do no good for the format. Regardless of which cards you unban.
I do understand the thought behind your post but the logic doesnt work out the way you want it to, obv. no insult intended.
When you unban Mental Mistep theres no way around banning Snapcaster with it, thats for sure. Blue would be really as degenerate as some already cry about it and would leave the format in an boring, unfun to play and choosing between 3/4 decks situation which would wreck the format completely.
Unbanning Earthcraft is fine btw, like the card, its effect and its way too fair in comparison to other cards beeing legal right now. Would love to see switching its place with S&T... .

My reasoning is that if everyone gets degenerate cards it should balance out. Snappy with MMS should keep the MT decks like Reanimator in check while Goblins and SotF decks would keep the blue players in check.

[Catitas]

unban gush

[bowvamp]

The implications of this are basically that legacy would be like vintage: completely degenerate. Actually, even more so. Also, shouldn't all this banning/unbanning stuff go in the sticky that is the banned list discussion?

[Purgatory]

Earthcraft seems fine to unban to me, there are plenty of other two-card combos that can win you the game outright for the same mana Painter+Grindstone (6 mana, though all colourless), Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith (5 mana, all colourless, recquires more spells to be cast, but unless you fuck up, you win when you have it online).

[Oiolosse]

Has Fastbond already been discussed? It seems like it could be fair because the card is only really good if you already Crucible out (at which point, you'd need a third card, fetch or waste or whatever, to really gain value and a forth card, Zuran, to really do something) or in a deck that goes all in on playing multiple lands per turn. Like Lands.

It would be awkward most of the time in Storm but awesome after ad nauseam. Essentially all land would be one shot city of brass' for that turn, it wouldn't count towards spells but you'd have a shitload extra mana.

I would def. test it alongside LftL in Trisomy 21.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Someone, I don't remember who*, said that even if people are talking about banning brainstorm, it won't happen, because 75% of the people on this site voted to keep it.

That means nothing.

When they were talking about abolishing the reserve list, people came out of the woodwork in support of the idea. We talked about it for weeks, and made polls, and practically everyone said "Yes, I would love it if they reprinted dual lands with black borders." I was so excited. And then a week later Wizards says "Oh, we talked to lots of people about it, including secret panels of pros and people who work at SCG and whatever, and everyone said we should abolish the reserve list, so we decided that we will never print another card from the reserve list ever, even in a promotional setting."

I don't know if there's an equivalent to writing a letter to your local representative or not, but I basically think Wizards just hates players.

I mean, transform cards? Seriously?


*: simple laziness on my part, it was dontbiteitholmes.

The difference is breaking the reserved list represents a monetary loss to some collectors/players/stores all of which WotC relies on to keep the game going. They don't want to rock the boat and risk making the most hardcore fans and stores who actually own duals mad. They made a promise not to do something long ago, it turned out to be a mistake, but they are sticking to their word. As much as I don't like this policy I understand it and I sort of admire them keeping their word even though they could make lots of money by just reprinting power and duals as premium cards.

Banning/leaving alone Brainstorm doesn't do anything to the value of most cards so it's apples and oranges.


On other things...
Recruiter is dumb. It's basically stack your goblin deck for 1R and last time I checked Food Chain still exists. I don't want to play against goblin decks with 4x infinite goblin tutors and an insane backup combo plan personally, maybe it's just me. Even without Food Chain it's a dumb card, I mean Ringleader am I right? It's not hard to Vial in Recruiter, next turn vial in Warchief, play Ringleader into a stack of 4x Piledriver and just win. Of course with Food Chain you just string a Ringleader 3x Goblins, Ringleader, 3x Goblins, Ringleader, 3x Goblins, Ringleader, 4x Goblins and next turn you're attacking for a million for those who don't remember that deck in Vintage.

Fastbond is insane broken and will NEVER NEVER EVER be unbanned in Legacy. Crucible + Fastbond is dumb. If you have a Wasteland it lets you nuke all your opponents non-basics for a little life, if you have fetchland it lets you basically play every land in your deck for 2 life each, with Zuran Orb it's infinite life. If you want to test this make Lands.dec with Fastbond instead of Exploration and LMK how that turns out. Oh Crucible + Fastbond, tutor up Orb, infinite life, Waste all your lands...

Land Tax sucks. No games with Land Tax are going to go to time because the person playing Land Tax will die pretty quick vs. a competent deck. Not to mention if we are talking cards that make the game go too long should be banned just for that we would have to ban Top, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, ect. and nobody wants that.

[DragoFireheart]

On other things...
Recruiter is dumb. .

That's supposed to be the case.

Recruiter w/ Vial Shits on Blue decks. The goblins overwhelm them with massive card advantage.

Blue decks with Snappys, FOW, Brainstorm, and MMS shit on combo decks. The sheer amount of counters kicks them to the curb.

Combo decks shit on SotF decks and other aggro decks. Combo is too fast for SotF decks and laughs at them all day.

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

[Beatusnox]

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

Now, my theory crafting may be off. But wouldnt food chain goblins swing for stupid more damage than 4 vengevine on turn 2/3?

[dontbiteitholmes]

That's supposed to be the case.

Recruiter w/ Vial Shits on Blue decks. The goblins overwhelm them with massive card advantage.

Blue decks with Snappys, FOW, Brainstorm, and MMS shit on combo decks. The sheer amount of counters kicks them to the curb.

Combo decks shit on SotF decks and other aggro decks. Combo is too fast for SotF decks and laughs at them all day.

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

While I'm all for unbanning Survival I'd rather that come with a ban on Vengevine. That shit made Legacy really unfun to play and I agree with the ban, even if I don't agree with the card. If you are saying you want Survival unbanned so we can all play Survival Vine again I think you're in the minority. Outside of Vine the card is A-OK and one of my favorites, with Vine the card is obnoxious to the format and stifles the openness and innovation that takes place otherwise.

While I agree that Goblins should beat blue, it pretty much already does. Sure it's not the insane matchup it was years ago but against the majority of blue decks I think a well built Goblins deck has the upper hand. The problem is with Recruiter there is pretty much no reason to play any other aggro deck without blue. Also with Recruiter the deck can race combo (well with Recruiter the deck IS combo), turn 3 wins are easy even without Lackey or Vial.

Turn 1 land one drop pass, turn 2 land, Recruiter, turn 3 land, Food Chain, sac Recruiter + 1drop Goblin, Ringleader reveal 3 Goblins + Ringleader, sac him, 3 more goblins another Ringleader, sac him +3 gobs another Ringleader, one more time, sac him another Ringleader, sac Ringleader SeigeGang, sac him and tokens, 13 mana and at least 11 Goblins of your choice that you stacked on top of your deck with a 2mana card last turn in your hand then you just win. Of course there are other ways to win on turn 3 but I think that example makes my point.

With that in the format why the hell would anyone ever play Maverick or Zoo or any midrange deck ever again? I have to completely disagree with Recruiter ever being unbanned. With Recruiter Goblins is an even better aggro deck than it is now (it would easily be the best aggro deck in the format) AND a tier 2 combo deck as plan B. No thank you sir.

[Final Fortune]

Drago if they unban that combo hell will break loose.


Umm... no.

Obviously those cards are pushing the envelope, but besides the obvious choices like Mind Twist (worse than Hymn to Tourach) Land Tax (worse than Life from the Loam) Earth Craft (worse than every other 2 card combo) there really aren't any other cards to "experiment" with.

I think Hermit Druid and Mind's Desire are probably safe, Channel is arguably just another Emakrul enabler so it's probably not worth it and Goblin Recruiter and Gush may just push Goblins and Blue.dec over the top as well so maybe Fastbond is the card to look at for any applications outside of lands.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Obviously those cards are pushing the envelope, but besides the obvious choices like Mind Twist (worse than Hymn to Tourach) Land Tax (worse than Life from the Loam) Earth Craft (worse than every other 2 card combo) there really aren't any other cards to "experiment" with.

I think Hermit Druid and Mind's Desire are probably safe, Channel is arguably just another Emakrul enabler so it's probably not worth it and Goblin Recruiter and Gush may just push Goblins and Blue.dec over the top as well so maybe Fastbond is the card to look at for any applications outside of lands.

Hermit Druid will never be unbanned. The fact that it is fragile does not balance the fact that it is still basically a one card win the game combo.

Channel is interesting. I don't think it will get unbanned anytime soon, but it actually seems a lot safer on the surface to than a lot of the cards people have been talking about in this thread.

[Gheizen64]

Hermit Druid will never be unbanned. The fact that it is fragile does not balance the fact that it is still basically a one card win the game combo.

Channel is interesting. I don't think it will get unbanned anytime soon, but it actually seems a lot safer on the surface to than a lot of the cards people have been talking about in this thread.

Channel deck, 65% win T1 lol:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Channel
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lich's Mirror
3 Empty the Warrens

More interesting is a Bargain list, which is arguably worse than hivemind since it require more dead cards in the main (rituals/moxens/petals), need you to go dual color (more exposition to waste, less choice in the usage of FoW) and is slightly more easily answered by things like CotV (CotV for 0 or 1 make it extremely hard for the deck to win even with a bargain down) and burn (ye' old double bolt). Yes, bargain is broken, but honestly, hivemind and dream halls are pretty broken enchantments too and are still fair. It's better than hivemind in topdecks situations and has a faster goldfish.

4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Intuition
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain

[Amon Amarth]

That's supposed to be the case.

Recruiter w/ Vial Shits on Blue decks. The goblins overwhelm them with massive card advantage.

Blue decks with Snappys, FOW, Brainstorm, and MMS shit on combo decks. The sheer amount of counters kicks them to the curb.

Combo decks shit on SotF decks and other aggro decks. Combo is too fast for SotF decks and laughs at them all day.

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

I agree with this, mostly.

The thing I can most realistically see is unbanning one of those cards (Survival or Recruiter) and then going from there. There really aren't any other cards on the banned list that can realistically come off and not warp the shit out of the format. Or there are good cards but they won't really give you any reason to not play Blue decks: Land Tax, Black Vise, etc. These cards should come off and I've seen no good argument for them to remain there.

Earthcraft could be interesting. You could throw the AoS combo in Elves to give it another level of resiliency against Wraths and a solid Plan B. That being said it's not like Elves has a lot of free slots and there are no way to tutor for these cards; Squirrel Nest isn't very impressive by itself. You could play Earthcraft in Enchantress and it makes that deck slightly better but nothing to write home about.

Belcher is still a deck so Channel isn't a realistic candidate. Fastbond... even if it wasn't involved in some insane combo/prison deck or whatever is a very powerful weapon even when put in "fair" decks. There are no applications for this card that isn't broken in half.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Channel deck, 65% win T1 lol:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Channel
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lich's Mirror
3 Empty the Warrens

I'm not seeing it. Unless you get Channel early you are just playing what amounts to a bad Belcher deck and Force of Will and Spell Snare still exist. Not saying Channel should be unbanned, but I'd rather that happen then Recruiter or Fastbond.