[Strategy]Fauna Shaman & Vengevine

[Mr. Safety]

I recently came into some Fauna Shamans and Vengevines. I know there has been a couple of decks posted on here with those 2 cards. My main point with this thread is to mention that this 2-card aggressive combination could essentially be a foundation for any deck that uses green. I think it could provide a great mid-range explosion that isn't neccessarily deck-dependant. I know that classic Survival-type decks were rampant before the ban in legacy...is Fauna Shaman powerful enough to work those same strategies?

For discussion's sake, I'm going to throw out some rough lists and how FS + VV can work in Bant, Naya, and Jund strategies.

Bant:

4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Eternal Witness
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare
2x Cryptic Command
4x Path to Exile


Naya:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
4x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Burning-Tree Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Ranger of Eos
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Congregation at Dawn

Jund:

4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
4x Bloodghast
4x Boggart Ram-Gang
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Broodmate Dragon

Those are all rough lists. I'm just trying to get a discussion going on how Fauna Shaman (and the pretty much auto-include Vengevine) could help combat the top aggro deck Zoo.

[John Cox]

I think Fauna Shaman is a great idea, but you should include memnite with the package to cheapen the combo.

[Koby]

I like the Naya approach the best - BBE is just that good, and in the right deck, always re-triggers Vengevines.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Fauna Shaman is a great idea, but you should include memnite with the package to cheapen the combo.

In legacy, there's Basking Rootwalla which is far and above better than Memnite. Memnite, IMHO, is wasted slots. It doesn't need to be free...it just needs to be cheap. The Bant approach can just hustle a couple of mana dorks and the Naya/Jund approach can just use Wild Nacatls/Bloodbraid Elf.

I like the Naya approach the best as well...the hatebears are what makes it so good (Teeg, Canonist) along with the ability to set up your top-decks like a champ with Congregation at Dawn.

What Jund brings is Maelstrom Pulse, Vampire Nighthawk, and the awesome synergy with Bloodghast you *could* use Bloodgast in any form, but you need a reliable way to get it into the graveyard or it's a dead card in hand.

[DragoFireheart]

Bloodghast and Vengevine is pretty good. Discard the ghast to get vines, discard more vines, play a land, play a couple dudes, free creatures en mass.

G/B is probably the best route. You want the discard to slow down Splinter Twins.

[Mr. Safety]

Bloodghast and Vengevine is pretty good. Discard the ghast to get vines, discard more vines, play a land, play a couple dudes, free creatures en mass.

G/B is probably the best route. You want the discard to slow down Splinter Twins.

Absolutely agree, and I mean this seriously, 100%. I just cobbled together a casual G/B F-Shaman deck with a full package of Bloodghasts, Vengevines, Basking Rootwallas, and F-Shamans. I gotta tell you, Buried Alive is the nuts in that strategy. I'm playing 6 turn 1 mana dorks (4x Elves of Deep Shadow, 2x Llanowar Elves) so I can do Buried Alive turn 2 to set up a triple Vengevine shot on turn 3 with a pair of 1 mana dudes (or a Shaman + 1 mana dude.)

For modern, I think you can go the same way with the only exception being that you don't have Buried Alive to set you up.

Rough B/G Fauna/Vine:

4x Elves of Deep Shadow
3x Llanowar Elves
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
4x Bloodghast
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Raven's Crime
3x Life from the Loam
2x Zombify
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Eternal Witness
1x Shriekmaw
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Angel of Despair
1x Bogarden Hellkite

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Twilight Mire
7x Swamp
7x Forest


I think the chances of nuts-dredging a fatty are pretty good with 3 Loams and 4 Shamans. Realistically, Vines, Ghasts, and the fatties are discard fodder so you can get additional Vines or nab your 2nd mana dork to get the Vines active. I also really like the Raven's Crime/Loam engine. It has Dr. Obviously Good synergy with Bloodghasts. If you need a land to pop those Ghasts onto the battlefield, Loam is what you want.

I like this route, for sure. I want to also (carefully) state that I don't think it's absolutely neccessary to go G/B. I think Naya, Jund, and to a lesser extent Bant, are all good options to use. I was actually a little bit excited about the Bant version...because Fauna Shaman plays a very specific role there: grab the best creatures Bant has to offer, namely Rafiq, Vendi, Pancake flipper, or the hexproof dudes like Thrun or Troll Ascetic. Having access to 4 Nobles and 2-4 Birds of Paradise makes getting to Cryptic mana a lot easier, too.

EDIT: fixed, DR is banned. Thanks Bignasty197. DOH!

[Bignasty197]

Dread Return is banned.

[Mr. Safety]

Dread Return is banned.

I know...I'm the type of person that remembers these things at midnight. Sure enough, I said to myself "George, George, George. Stop drinking that retard coffee..."

Fixing now, a couple copies of Zombify will replace it. Makeshift Mannequin could work...or I may just drop the reanimator package altogether for other utility beats like Vampire Nighthawks, Putride Leech, or even Troll Ascetic or Thrun.

I'm really curious about Kokusho...is he worth a slot for reanimation? I currently have Iona, Hellkite, and Angel of Despair...those seem like better options, but I may be wrong. Kokusho has a hefty dose of inevitability to it, preventing non-exile removal.

[Brushwagg]

Your lists need more Scyrb Ranger. I played Pandora for a while in Legacy and one of the btter cards was Qyirion Ranger. Allowing Shaman muliple activations per turn. Plus Ranger is cheap enough to count towards a creature drop.

So I would probably go with something like this.

4x BOP
2x Heirarch
4x Shaman
2x Ranger
4x Goyf
4x Vengevine
3x KotR
2x Pridemage
2x Witness

3x Steelshaper's Gift
2x SoFI
1x Jitte

4x PtE

I find keeping it simple to very effective. It's very easy to trigger VV and to over whelm the board.

[Mr. Safety]

Well said...I think Scryb Ranger is especially nice in a Bant colored deck, allowing for untaps of Nobles/Birdsl. It is also relivant that Scryb Ranger can be an instant speed answer to Vendilion Clique, profitably blocking as well as untapping Shaman/Knight of the Reliquary for more shenanigans.

There are 2 specific things that are a 'little off' with your rough list Brushwagg. The first is fact, the second is opinion.

1) Jitte is banned
2) Playing Naya colors with Venge/Shaman without Wild Nacatl is just plain wrong. You could easily shave off mulitples of the utility dudes to get a playset of cats in there. -1 Pridemage, -1 Witness, -1 Noble, -1 Goyf/Knight/whatever. The cheap casting cost of Wild Nacatl can be nuts when you're busting out Vengevines.

[Brushwagg]

DOH! Forgot Jitte was banned. Can be replaced with Sword of whatever.. probably Light and Shadow.

@Naya yes very possible. I'm at work so I put zero thought into the list. If Wild Nacatl is added then I'd also look into a 1 of Ranger of Eos.

[Mr. Safety]

DOH! Forgot Jitte was banned. Can be replaced with Sword of whatever.. probably Light and Shadow.

@Naya yes very possible. I'm at work so I put zero thought into the list. If Wild Nacatl is added then I'd also look into a 1 of Ranger of Eos.

Kind of like the rough list I had posted at the top (sans Scryb Ranger)?

I can in no way use any semblance of self-righteous indignation though, because I did these 2 things:

1) Put Dread Return into a decklist about 5 posts up, which is also banned
2) Forgot to put a 1-of Grim Lavamancer in the Naya list that also includes the aforementioned Ranger of Eos. Epic fail...

[Bignasty197]

Makeshift Mannequin would be pretty good, I think. Instant speed, beginning of opponent's end step Iona is pretty hot.

[Koby]

I've also liked the Dredge-o-vine lists from old Standard. Google up David Ochoa's list for reference.

[Mr. Safety]

@Bignasty: yeah, it works really well. I've even used Reya Dawnbringer to great effect by MM on opponent's end step. The real problem is the mannequin counter without shroud. I may pick red against zoo, only to lose Iona to Grim Lavamancer activation or Path. It's great against decks like Burn/rdw (hoser) but even those decks use Shrine of Burning Rage (well, at least they should)

Truth be told, I think Vigor Mortis is the best reanimation spell in moden right now (unless you're also playing white to abuse Unburial Rites.)

@rukcus: Yes, I'm researching DredgeVine lists. I'm toying with Hedron Crab, Ideas Unbound, Forbidden Alchemy, Merfolk Looter, Life from the Loam, Stinkweed Imp, Gifts Ungiven, and even Neurok Commando. I think Renegade Doppleganger is pretty damn hot. Even copying Bloodghast would be great. I'm actually fairly excited about some super-secret tech (Boneyard Wurm, SHHHH!!!)

This is my (rough) BUG dredge/vine list:

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Hedron Crab
4x Merfolk Looter
2x Enclave Cryptologist
2x Llanowar Elves
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Renegade Doppelganger
4x Boneyard Wurm
4x Bloodghast
4x Vengevine
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Scryb Ranger
21x lands (with a minimum of 8 fetches, 4 VCatacombs and 4 MRainforests)

[SpikeyMikey]

Truth be told, I think Vigor Mortis is the best reanimation spell in moden right now (unless you're also playing white to abuse Unburial Rites.)

Thief...


:P

I'm more of a fan of Goryo's Vengeance for general reanimation spells. Goryo's with Jin-Gitaxis or Emrakul is saucy.

[Mr. Safety]

Thief...


:P

I'm more of a fan of Goryo's Vengeance for general reanimation spells. Goryo's with Jin-Gitaxis or Emrakul is saucy.

Irrelivant now, I think...I didn't see any Vigor Mortis in the top decks (did you?)

How good do you think Goryo's Vengeance is with something like Bogarden Hellkite and Angel of Despair? You are definately getting value out of them just for entering the battlefield. Sacrificing them at EOT to an engine rather than exiling them means you can do it again (does that work?) possibly with something slightly more permanent like Zombify or the aforementioned Vigor Mortis in the mid-game.

[SpikeyMikey]

Irrelivant now, I think...I didn't see any Vigor Mortis in the top decks (did you?)

How good do you think Goryo's Vengeance is with something like Bogarden Hellkite and Angel of Despair? You are definately getting value out of them just for entering the battlefield. Sacrificing them at EOT to an engine rather than exiling them means you can do it again (does that work?) possibly with something slightly more permanent like Zombify or the aforementioned Vigor Mortis in the mid-game.

No. But we abandoned the Ooze/Gifts deck before the tournament even started.

Goryo's is pretty bad with Hellkite and Angel; neither of them is a legend. I've been tinkering with the idea of reanimator. I think you could make it beat Zoo. You want to run 4 Liliana of the Veil (hear PWers are good against aggro, especially ones that double as removal). You want to run 4 Lightning Axe (pretty solid removal). You can even run ZI (makes chumpers or soaks burn). I think the hardest part is that you don't have Entomb OR Buried Alive. Fauna Shaman is one thought, but it's easy to burn out, you need to have a creature in hand to use it and it's got summoning sickness. I'm considering Summoner's Pact. By the time you're casting it, you're wanting to cast a 4 mana reanimation spell that turn, so you should have the mana to pay for Pact the turn following. Of course, this means wasting a lot more space than Legacy Reanimator and you're a full 2 turns slower at best.

I think that once Faithless Looting is out, that'll have a place in both your Vengevine deck and Reanimator. I'm debating Grove/Fires vs. Silence in Reanimator. Grove/Fires keeps me to 3 colors (BRG), but Silence is probably better vs. Zoo. Fuck your early creatures, you're not casting them. And against control, it is another must-counter spell that you can lead up your reanimation spells with. I think I'm going to go Grove/Fires main, for testing purposes, with Silence and Isochron Scepter in board. Fires does make a good card to pitch to Lilian or Lightning Axe if you don't have a fatty. Worst case scenario, Lightning Axe or Lightning Helix can go on a stick and people aren't likely to have much arti removal in against reanimator. Stick makes me wish I was running a Goryo's Vengeance version though, and now we've come full circle. :P

[Mr. Safety]

Stix is really untapped right now...it seems like it should be better, but no Orim's Chant, Fire/Ice, or anything else of real value (Remand is decent, Echoing Truth can be good, Boomerang is ok...but 'decent and ok' don't make great decks...)

Honestly, if Fire/Ice was in the modern card pool, I'd be playing stix control with Lightning Helix, Bolts, Remand, Boomerang, and Echoing Truth.

[Koby]

Getting off topic regarding 2 mana instants.

I've been very happy with G/r Vengevine/BBElves build for modern. I haven't tested enough against Zoo tho, so it might be a poor choice overall. I certainly like that in my deck casting BBE always triggers VV. Once Faithless Looting becomes legal, a G/R Vengevine Madness deck would be pretty cool, adding Fiery Temper to the strategy.

What other cards could be included for a vengevine deck?