[Archtype] Jund B/G/R

[Brushwagg]

So I did a search and I saw a few threads trying to get this conversation going but alot of them are old. I would like to get this thread going to start some conversation.

For the most part this color combination is unexplored, and I'm not totally sure why. The colors go well together and make up for the weakness of the other.

A few sample lists.

Sligh Style

Beats
4x Goblin Guide
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Grim Lavamancer
1x Eternal Witness
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thrun, the Last Troll

Reach/Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
3x Blightning

Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Land
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Taiga
3x Bayou
1x Badlands
2x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Swamp

Rockish:

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Eternal Witness
1x Scavenging Ooze

Removal/Reach
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Go for the Throat

Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Blood Moon

Misc:
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Liliana of the Veil

Land
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Taiga
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
3x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Swamp

Feel free to give feed back on the lists but they are more to open up discussion. I plan on doing tests on the Sligh list.

Cards that should/could be considered:
Bloodbraid Elf
Cabal Therapy
Pernicious Deed
Life from the Loam
Fireblast
Dismember
Keldon Marauders

Possible cards for the Sideboard:
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Firespout
Engineered Plague
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction
Krosan Grip
Ancient Grudge

[Cire]

From my brief experiment in the goodstuff archtype discussion:

IBA JUND

1 Ooze
1 Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Wasteland
18 Lands

[from Cairo]

I had a list together a while ago that worked sort of off the CA idea of Standard/Type 2 Jund - it was solid against "Fair" decks ie agro and control, it gets hosed by combo w/o Blue's counters or White's hate bears. It was something along the lines of...

Creatures 16
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Veteran Explorer

Spells 21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Torach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Unearth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Terminate

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain

SB had...
Extirpate
Blood Moon
Jund Charm
RE/Pyro Blast
Ancient Grudge
Darkblast

[bowvamp]

I posted a deck I titled "Tacky Aggro" recently that I've been testing for a while. And I mean recently.


3 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Chain Lightning
4 Dark Confidant
1 Forest
4 Goblin Guide
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Pithing Needle
3 Taiga
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Hypnotic Specter

//SB
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Deathmark
2 Duress
4 Pyroblast


I like this list because it has some pretty wacky ways of dealing with the opponent's threats while still being aggressive. Admittedly, I'd probably like to do something about the 1-of Maelstrom Pulse, but I don't really know whether it would be good as a 2-of or if it should just be put back in the deck (and what to do with the slot that would be opened or closed).

[Mono_Thematic]

I've been working on a control deck of jund colors for awhile now. It askews some of the cards that'll undoubtedly get me flamed for omitting in order to survive until the mid to late game. Its all about incremental advantage and grinding out wins.

Land:
3x wasteland
3x grove of burnwillow
3x forest
2x swamp
2x mountain
2x verdant catacombs
2x wooded foothills
2x bloodstained mire
1x taiga
1x badland
1x bayou

Creatures
4x elvish visionary
4x eternal witness
4x bloodbraid elf

Planeswalkers
2x garruk wildspeaker

Instants/Sorceries
4x duress
4x thoughtseize/IoK
4x terminate
4x maelstrom pulse
2x krosan grip
4x punishing fire

Artifacts
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Its got hard match-ups against burn, show and tell, and to a lesser extent MUD, but its tons of fun to play because you always have options. Garruk is actually really strong cause his +1 allows for lots of p.fire recursion which clears the board for his overrun to turn the weenies into killers. In order to increase the creature count I've been experimenting with -2 thoughtseize and -3 tops for +4 corrupt court official (bringing it down to 60 cards), with mixed results.
Hope this helped,
-Mono

[dsck]

If I was playing in the SCG meta I'd play Bloodbraif Elf + Choke maindeck

[Brushwagg]

@Hymn: I found the BB to be a little hard to hit without BOP. I was playing but I cut it right away.

@Storm Combo: This is probably going to be the hardest match-up. They can just win befeore you play anything. But if the deck can preform some early hand surgery and follow up with some quick beats and burn I think it can win before Storm can recover. I'm going to test this match-up but I'm still going to say it will end in their favor.

@Most other decks: Other then Storm, this archtype has alot of tools to fight evwerything else. I'm looking foward to testing.

[bowvamp]

I've won against storm, but it wasn't easy. I had incredible luck with starting sevens and I knew I was playing storm before hand (because the player told me). IoK is what really pulled me through in G1 and G3.

[Mono_Thematic]

With SFM/batterskull being the most common kill condition out there, don't underestimate K.Grip as a MB option. Its the only thing that kills batterskull before they can bounce to their hand, and dodges junk like spell pierce, FoW, and daze all days.

I think the strongest thing that this deck could potential break would be a Burning Wish board. BRG provide alot of sorcery options that would fix its worst match-ups real quick. Its something that I haven't explored very much, but I probably should be.

@Hymn: you could run half of Rise // Fall. Storm combo doesn't run that many lands so it should basically be a Hymn most times

[bowvamp]

I think that if I were to choose between Rise // Fall or Hymn to Tourach I would go with Hymn. Double black is not the problem, it's the double colored mana.
Also regarding Batterskull, running K. Grips or Ancient Grudges MD might not be worth it considering it isn't that easy to get into play w/o SFM, which is in bolt range.

[Brushwagg]

Also regarding Batterskull, running K. Grips or Ancient Grudges MD might not be worth it considering it isn't that easy to get into play w/o SFM, which is in bolt range.

To add to this a well placed discard spell deals with it also.

As I said before I feel the weakest match is Storm combo, and I'm fine with that. With the small number of it showing up I'm not totally worried about it. The decks I would look at is Stoneblade, RUG (Thresh and non), Reanimator, Merfolk, Goblins, Junk and Zoo. All those decks your chances of facing are the greatest and I feel these colors can deal with all.

Double black is not the problem, it's the double colored mana.

No the problem seemed to be the double Black on turn 2, and allowing my list to run smooth. Thats why I went with Blightning, but I'm still considering Cabal Therapy.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Glissa, The Traitor + Engineered Explosives. Run that, along with Stronghold, and that seems like a pretty solid Rock foundation and not as mana intensive as Deed.

[bowvamp]

Yeah, I'd say that engineered explosives is an option (in a control build), but Glissa doesn't seem very good.

I'm getting tired of Wasteland, since it leads to annoying times against decks that can use it better and is also completely useless against decks that play basics (well not completely). I've decided to test:
-4 Wasteland
+4 Mishra's Factory
Because I like running 22 lands for consistency and less vulnerability to land hate/targeted discard. Factory is a mana sink that can help late game against a lot of decks (I like it in Pox). So yeah, that's what I'm testing now.

[Roman Candle]

Just gonna plug one of my favorite cards Destructive Flow. I have no idea if it's worth the deckbuilding restrictions but with allied and enemy-colored fetches now it may be feasible.

[Barook]

Yeah, I'd say that engineered explosives is an option (in a control build), but Glissa doesn't seem very good.

How about running her as a GSZ target along with a few copies of EE?

[Mystical_Jackass]

How about running her as a GSZ target along with a few copies of EE?

I guess this all comes down to if BowVamp approves... we'll just have to wait and see ^^

It doesn't seem like a bad idea. I honestly never played rock builds in Legacy, but with cards like Witness, Pulse, and control shell it seems pretty good. Although, I don't see why you wouldn't use Sensei's Divining Top if you're gonna go that route too. I hate this whole archetype, why did I post here LOL... oh yeah, I'm bored.

[bowvamp]

Also, I love destructive flow! That card might be a little hard to run, but I remember the Flow Rocks list I used to play in extended and it was incredibly devastating back then.

Also, sorry if I come off prickish, I wasn't saying "I disapprove" so much as I was saying that I was unsure of how useful Glissa would be. I guess with GSZ, her mana cost becomes much less prohibitive.

Sorry that you feel that way about Jund, MJ. Also, if you don't like the rock version you could run a more controlling version with less creatures, or a Sligh-like list. I think this thread is just for most everything BRG that isn't Aggro Loam.

[Barook]

Old Extended Flow decks seem pretty interesting. (Outdated) example list as food for thought:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Forest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
2 Burning-tree Shaman
4 Troll Ascetic
2 Elves of the Deep Shadow

3 Chrome Mox
3 Destructive Flow
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Call of the Herd
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Terminate
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard (15)
1 Destructive Flow
4 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Call of the Herd
4 Pernicious Deed

The list would need an obvious update for Legacy, though.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Heh, just giving you crap. Actually, one pet card of mine that actually could fit in a more control mid-deck build is Drop of Honey.

It'd obviously mean you'd have to change the curve a bit, dropping out all the mana elves, but the card's a beast at messing up tempo against aggro it literally plays right into your favor if you'd running Deed/EE and some recursion engine.

Creatures like Thrun, Goyf, Tombstalker and Witness come to mind. As long as you're at least tied for creature with greatest power it works as sort of a one-sided Abyss which will just wreck most tribal. Actually, considering Drop says "destroy" and doesn't target, the idea of locking a Thrun on board with one seems hilarious against a weenie deck, I think that's pretty much game over then.

I'm not really sure if Destructive Flow is worth it... it seems like a badass card, but like the mana base correction and fact that it's only one land at a time beginning of their upkeep seems kinda mediocre, almost makes me think why not just SB Bloodmoon for w/e you'd really actually need that? I dunno, for its cost it needs 2 upkeeps and targets to be better than stone rain :/

[Qweerios]

The Sligh idea isn't a bad one at all. I could see a tricolored burn deck perform well with a splash of green for Goyf, Kird Ape, and some sideboard KGrips while black offers Bob and Bump in the Night. Sort of like a Zoo deck with more direct burn, here is what I have in mind:


Creatures (20)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (20)
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands (20)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Taiga


A more rock style deck is what is interresting me the most though. I don't think Destructive Flow is a possibility with 3 colors, the opportunity cost this card implies is too great for its effect (alike Suppression Field). The main issue with a BGR deck is that choosing red over white is a downgrade in almost every aspect. For example:

-Swords to Plowshares becomes Terminate;
-Vindicate becomes Maelstrom Pulse;
-Noble Hierarch becomes Birds of Paradise;
-Qasali Pridemage becomes Vithian Renegades;
-Stoneforge Mystic becomes Grim Lavamancer;
-Knight of the Reliquary becomes Bloodbraid Elf;

and that is excluding all the sideboard hate that white provides that actually gives midgame decks a chance to fight back against combo. What red has best to offer are moon effects and direct damage spells. The first one is only good in 1-2 colors deck and the second one is most effective in faster, all-in-ish strategies. I really can't think of a red package that would warrant a red splash in a BG deck over blue or white.