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Thread: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

  1. #1

    [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    I thought with a new card suggested for banning every month and the hot discussion surrounding Brainstorm, a little clarification as to what the motivation and thought process should be behind banning cards was in order.
    Also inside: my arguments against banning Brainstorm (not that that point of view is likely to surprise many of you).

    Enjoy!

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  2. #2

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    I found the article insightful and tend to agree with your reasoning for the most part. I do think that if Brainstorm gets banned, the format will begin to decline in the same way Vintage did. Even if Brainstorm makes the format less fun for some people, the people who play Blue (in general) will have a much larger dip in terms of the fun they'll have. In that way, I think you'll see an exodus similar to Vintage. Lets not kid ourselves, Brainstorm is probably the "best" card in the format when you balance out the various metrics to evaluate cards. However, when you ban the "best" card in a format, its a terrible precedent to set because it becomes infinitely regressive and disincentives players from investing in the format. I already started moving away from Legacy toward Vintage because I think Legacy is trending down from people complaining (trolling) about the perceived need to ban cards and WotC management of the format (in terms of the cards they print and how the manage the B&R list).

  3. #3
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    The point in banning brainstorm is that it makes blue slower and less consistent, and that is good, because blue wasn't mean to be the fastest color in Magic, but the slowest.
    Also, if you don't ban brainstorm, you have to ban a card that actually hurts blue, which is what people that whine about brainstorm do not want.

    As long as WotC doesn't ban a piece of the blue shell, everytime a new set is released with a good blue card, the format will become +75% winning decks. That's because the glass is full of water and even a little drop makes it spill. The proper way to go is not to ban every drop of water that arrives from now on, but to bring back the water level to a safe zone.

    I actually don't mind brainstorm, but "true" blue players are so annoying to read that I admit loving the idea of seeing it banned just to make them rage-quit and play vintage instead, a paradise where they will be able to battle decks with the same 28 blue cards to no end.
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  4. #4

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    The point in banning brainstorm is that it makes blue slower and less consistent, and that is good, because blue wasn't mean to be the fastest color in Magic, but the slowest.
    Also, if you don't ban brainstorm, you have to ban a card that actually hurts blue, which is what people that whine about brainstorm do not want.

    As long as WotC doesn't ban a piece of the blue shell, everytime a new set is released with a good blue card, the format will become +75% winning decks. That's because the glass is full of water and even a little drop makes it spill. The proper way to go is not to ban every drop of water that arrives from now on, but to bring back the water level to a safe zone.

    I actually don't mind brainstorm, but "true" blue players are so annoying to read that I admit loving the idea of seeing it banned just to make them rage-quit and play vintage instead, a paradise where they will be able to battle decks with the same 28 blue cards to no end.
    Too bad my strategic preference makes my writing annoying. I offer you my most profound apologies.

    By the way, there is something I've been wondering about ever since I realized you're hellbent on trying to get FoW banned. Do you actually play this format in tournament settings the size of a LGS or plan on doing so? Because if all those "true blue players" aka the people that love Brainstorm rage-quit (or you succeed and Force is banned as well as, subsequnetly, about 80 other cards), your 20-30 people events will dwindle to 20 then 15 and soon nobody will show up any more because the tournament has become too small to support itself. The first time the event doesn't fire, it's permanently dead.
    Decks containing blue have constituted the majority of winning decks for at least three years, probably much longer. The format has still seen unprecedented growth and even been called the best format ever by a large number of people.

    Clearly from all the posts I've seen you make, you're on a one man crusade for turning this format into something totally different from what it has been so far, much closer to Modern. I suggest you try to figure out why people prefer playing Legacy to Modern and then rethink your approach as to what most people enjoy doing/happening to the B&R list instead of being egoistic and try to remake the format into something you alone want.
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  5. #5
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    Also, if you don't ban brainstorm, you have to ban a card that actually hurts blue, which is what people that whine about brainstorm do not want.

    -snip-

    I actually don't mind brainstorm, but "true" blue players are so annoying to read that I admit loving the idea of seeing it banned just to make them rage-quit and play vintage instead, a paradise where they will be able to battle decks with the same 28 blue cards to no end.
    1. Why does WotC "have to Ban a card"? Are you AGAIN talking about FoW?
    2. "go play Vintage if you want to play blue" is childish. It's like: "If you hate FoW and Brainstorm go play Modern"
    3. stop the bullshit about something you have obviously no idea of (Vintage).

    How should anyone take you serious if most of your post is personal disgust, myth and rumors
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  6. #6

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    I actually don't mind brainstorm, but "true" blue players are so annoying to read that I admit loving the idea of seeing it banned just to make them rage-quit and play vintage instead, a paradise where they will be able to battle decks with the same 28 blue cards to no end.
    Your awkward trolling and shortsighted comments only demonstrate how little you've examined the Vintage metagame if you think that all Blue decks run the same 28 cards. If you want to have have a discussion on the health of the Vintage metagame, post something over on the manadrain or in another forum on this site and I would happily engage that discussion. :-)

    The reality is that Legacy is becoming less stable with the recent printings, poor format management, and the increased format attention. Prior to 2010, the only card that had been banned in the history of the format was Flash (other than cards that were banned due to power level errata or logistics). In less than 2 years, we've seen three cards banned and numerous cards printed that have arguably (and actually) warped the format. If you were trying to win events and invested in Reanimator or Survival of the Fittest, you likely took a huge hit when the cards were banned. If Brainstorm is banned, I look at such an action as only a sign of things to come with the new decision rule being that WotC will ban the perceived best card in the format or they will ban a card to nerf the perceived best deck in the format. WotC won't stop printing cards like Snapcaster Mage, Delver, Vengevine, Iona etc because they're relatively safe in Standard (which is all they care about) and to a lesser extent Modern. However, these cards become degenerate in Legacy because of the way they interact with older cards and that WotC doesn't care about Legacy, nor do they test with Legacy in mind. I think anyone here would be be able to deny that power creep is very real in this game and even if WotC has done an above average job curbing it, you'll still reach a point where the power level of current cards will result in unfair and degenerative interactions in this format with older cards. This always result in best.deck appearing which is what people will want to play because they want to win.

    One of the major appeals of Legacy over other formats was its stability as a format that you could invest in over time. So now, what's the incentive to invest in Legacy if playing the best deck means you're likely to have it banned six or twelve months down the road? I'd rather move to Vintage where the money cards never take hits from B&R updates or new printings and to be honest, WotC doesn't care at all about Vintage so they're is little risk of the format collapsing or totally shifting from a ban. Also, in a world where Legacy support collapse, I don't see Legacy carrying as a player supported format when the SCG support and GPs cease.

  7. #7
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    Please not again a thread to that topic.

    The article is very good and gives anyone who just wants to post their argument pro/contra brainstorm enough input to really think about.

  8. #8
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    Can people stop derailing this thread into ban/unban.thread or Dr. Jone's Quest for the Holy FoW-ban?

    This is a really solid article. I enjoyed how Mon puts out the arguments logically and really stresses what is important when considering ANY banlist. It is indeed very true that we are seeing a lot of cries for bans of OLDER cards that have been proven to be stable in the past few years. Survival might have been the only beast that could prove to be what Mon calls 'degenerate' (since everyone had to play Survival to beat Survival, which wasn't 100% true at that time since there were plenty of decks that were simply faster and beat Survival e.g. tier 2 decks like Elf-combo).

    Anyway, our cries for bannings have been pretty lame and uncalled for as Mon pointed out. The community has cried for bans for at the very least:
    1) Jace, TMS (why isn't anyone screaming about this card now? Remember just half a year ago, SCG 'pros' were convinced Jace is the single best card in the format?)
    2) SFM
    3) Goyf
    4) SDT
    5) LED, FoW
    6) Spiral Tide, Show and Tell
    7) Now Brainstorm

    You know, as much as I occasionally whine and hate the DCI, I think they have really done an alright job considering that they have really done a good job with just banning Mystical Tutor, Survival, Mental Misstep and none of the cards listed above. We can argue about the MTutor/Survival/Misstep ban but those have been executed. I personally would be fine with none of them being banned but I definitely feel that those cards are still more powerful than any of the cards listed above or any other cards currently in the format.

    Question for Mon: Are those listed criteria in your article the exact criteria laid out by the DCI or are those the criteria that are based on your personal opinions that are exemplified by the DCI's banning philosophy?
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  9. #9

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalwalker View Post
    Can people stop derailing this thread into ban/unban.thread or Dr. Jone's Quest for the Holy FoW-ban?

    This is a really solid article. I enjoyed how Mon puts out the arguments logically and really stresses what is important when considering ANY banlist. It is indeed very true that we are seeing a lot of cries for bans of OLDER cards that have been proven to be stable in the past few years. Survival might have been the only beast that could prove to be what Mon calls 'degenerate' (since everyone had to play Survival to beat Survival, which wasn't 100% true at that time since there were plenty of decks that were simply faster and beat Survival e.g. tier 2 decks like Elf-combo).

    Anyway, our cries for bannings have been pretty lame and uncalled for as Mon pointed out. The community has cried for bans for at the very least:
    1) Jace, TMS (why isn't anyone screaming about this card now? Remember just half a year ago, SCG 'pros' were convinced Jace is the single best card in the format?)
    2) SFM
    3) Goyf
    4) SDT
    5) LED, FoW
    6) Spiral Tide, Show and Tell
    7) Now Brainstorm

    You know, as much as I occasionally whine and hate the DCI, I think they have really done an alright job considering that they have really done a good job with just banning Mystical Tutor, Survival, Mental Misstep and none of the cards listed above. We can argue about the MTutor/Survival/Misstep ban but those have been executed. I personally would be fine with none of them being banned but I definitely feel that those cards are still more powerful than any of the cards listed above or any other cards currently in the format.

    Question for Mon: Are those listed criteria in your article the exact criteria laid out by the DCI or are those the criteria that are based on your personal opinions that are exemplified by the DCI's banning philosophy?
    The problem of Survival, for me, really is with the goal of strategic variety - the Survival-engine wasn't particularly degenerate (essentially delivering a turn four win though turn 2 Survival did feel quite a bit like a Flash that takes two more turns to actually end the game) but it was simply better than any other option for a large number of strategies/archetypes, therefore pushing a significant number of them out of the metagame just to replace them with varients of itself.

    As to your question, the biggest problem we have in any B/R discussion is actually that the DCI does not have exact banning criteria laid out anywhere. What exactly they consider when deciding to ban is one big unknown.
    I think that is counterproductive to transparent and effective format management and discussion of proposed bannings and that's why I laid out my personal point of view concerning banning criteria and how to arrive at them.
    The fact that DCI decisions seem to correspond with what I laid out either shows the DCI uses a similar approach (and I'm reasonably sure they at least agree with my starting point - that bans should be used to make the format as fun as possible for its playerbase) or they just happened to come to similar conclusions based on different criteria. Which of the two is the case I simply don't know.
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  10. #10
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: To Ban or Not To Ban

    I don't usually agree with Dr. Jones, but he is quite valuable to the conversation. The longer you have been certain of something, the more you need dissension. In Magic, it is particularly so, since you have the guys holding the reigns actively seeking to shake it all up every once in a while.
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